Afgan Fashion--the BURKA and Today's Women in Afghanistan

[IBIS]

I totally agree with you, rachel kurbie. We should avoid polemics against any particular religion, because, as you say, we really don't know that much about their practices.

As readers we need to recognize the universality of human suffering. We are drawn to these particular characters and their stories because Mr. Hosseini did a fine job placing them in a culture that he knows personally.

[greentrees]

Rachel, I agree that the religious beliefs of the Muslim people are, to an extent, difficult for us to understand, even though we are able to sympathize with those who are subject to acts of aggression, inequality and violence.

I am quite familiar with the Muslim religion as my best friend is Muslim. She has raised the point to me that the Muslim religion is in need of reform, just as the Jewish religion has also reformed itself in certain sects of Judaism. Another very good friend of mine is a "reformed" Orthodox Jewish woman, and though she considers herself reformed, she sometimes grapples with how to live very religiously in a world that does not necessarily allow you to live religiously in a comfortable manner always. She is criticized at times by her own family for Jewish values that she has, and that come into conflict with theirs. For example, who to marry? A Jewish man or someone who converted to Judaism.

I think Khaled Hosseini really goes to a point of no return when he describes the ruin of the buildings, monuments, places the characters would visit and play and feel a sense of happiness and comfort. I think that was also symbolic to reflect what the people of Afghanistan feel. They are 'ruined' within their own society, and within their own sects, and the disbelief and disillusionment of this is completely overbearing. However, he reinforces time and again how hope somehow survives in these people, despite what they have seen. The images don't haunt them for too long, because they pick up the pieces and move on, however they can, but they do. I think he professes a great deal of stoicism that for a moment while reading, you are almost paralyzed with that truth. If you put yourself in their lives, you have to wonder, could we move on, in such a steadfast manner??

[Chaser]

I do agree that many religions exhibit extremism. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian family, so I have seen firsthand and been personally affected by their extremism. And, of course, many believe the Bible supports these beliefs (and it is hard to dispute sometimes that it does).

I don't believe discussing the essential elements of a religion is "making judgments" per se. Of course, each individual can make the judgment that any religion is/is not one they want to be affiliated with. I think through an honest discussion we can become more familiar with what we are not. Just because many people are not familiar with fundamentalist Christianity doesn't mean I wish they wouldn't discuss it. On the contrary, I wish they would! Many women especially are bound to roles and expectations within this culture that may be further exposed with discussion. Christianity may not have the governmental/legal backing that Islamic groups have in the Middle East; otherwise, we may see a similar situation here (with morality imposed, etc.).

I don't see a discussion about a religion equivalent to attacking it; however, I believe any system of belief should be able to stand up to criticism, or perhaps it is worthy of it!

---

rkubie wrote:
I think the novel really presses us to look at the kinds of brutalities a society can bring down on individuals--and Hosseini is marvelous in not allowing us to turn away from what's most awful. Laila and Miriam are such full, wonderful characters--and they are the "lowest" in their society--and must fight as hard as they know how for any scrap of dignity or happiness they get.

I do want to turn away from making judgments about Islam. Most of us aren't familiar with the practice, and I think that the Judeo-Christian Bible could also be read to support many practices that most of us think are wrong--certainly, a religion isn't only about its text. We might remember from the story that it is Miriam's religious teacher who tried to argue for her schooling early on, and who was broken at her being sent into marriage on the death of her mother. It was her "modern" father who gave her up!

But I also agree that the novel is an extraordinary indictment against the mistreatment and inequality of women, especially under the Taliban. As Kite Runner was with class separation. He doesn't pull punches, does he?

---

[greentrees]

IBIS, that alst paragraph was so well put. Khaled Hosseini, really does a phenomenal job of telling this story because of his own personal experiences. I felt the story was as real as can be. I read this novel and the other "Kite Runner" in four days flat (faster than any novel I've read) because I was mesmerized by his voice, his manner of writing and expression, and the reality of his words. It left me in tears, and in deep thought, and it lingered within my thoughts for several weeks thereafter.

Actually, I thanked God for the life we live, and the freedom we have as American people. We live in a free world. Period. For so many, I wonder what their idea of a free world is? How much more that must mean to them, and to the people of Afghanistan.

I think Khaled Hosseini poignantly referred to cultural things, customs, ways of thinking, because he wanted to reveal a world and mindset that is so foreign to us in America, that we would be completely arrested by his descriptions. What frightened me for a moment is this: women have no intimate rights as females, and they have no identity. Miriam grew up not even holding an identity of herself. She was actually given roles to perform by other people--her mother, her father, her imam (religious teacher), her husband Rasheed. I kept waiting to read when her wonderful moment would surface, but it didn't. I wanted so much for this character, who was deemed an outcast from the time she was born, to be uplifted, to have her fine day, but that never came, and I wondered why.

I think Khaled Hosseini's Miriam character was 'the' reality of what happens to a woman in Afghanistan.

[kiakar]

---

greentrees wrote:
IBIS, that alst paragraph was so well put. Khaled Hosseini, really does a phenomenal job of telling this story because of his own personal experiences. I felt the story was as real as can be. I read this novel and the other "Kite Runner" in four days flat (faster than any novel I've read) because I was mesmerized by his voice, his manner of writing and expression, and the reality of his words. It left me in tears, and in deep thought, and it lingered within my thoughts for several weeks thereafter.

Actually, I thanked God for the life we live, and the freedom we have as American people. We live in a free world. Period. For so many, I wonder what their idea of a free world is? How much more that must mean to them, and to the people of Afghanistan.

I think Khaled Hosseini poignantly referred to cultural things, customs, ways of thinking, because he wanted to reveal a world and mindset that is so foreign to us in America, that we would be completely arrested by his descriptions. What frightened me for a moment is this: women have no intimate rights as females, and they have no identity. Miriam grew up not even holding an identity of herself. She was actually given roles to perform by other people--her mother, her father, her imam (religious teacher), her husband Rasheed. I kept waiting to read when her wonderful moment would surface, but it didn't. I wanted so much for this character, who was deemed an outcast from the time she was born, to be uplifted, to have her fine day, but that never came, and I wondered why.

I think Khaled Hosseini's Miriam character was 'the' reality of what happens to a woman in Afghanistan.

---

You all, are making some great points that are so true. It's true Khaled's Miriam and Laila were the suffering women in Afghanistan.That is what most women go through in that country all the time. They never have their fine day in their country. Call it religion or any other name , to me its a crime for women anywhere to be treated so inhumane.

[Rachel-K]

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greentrees wrote:
What frightened me for a moment is this: women have no intimate rights as females, and they have no identity. Miriam grew up not even holding an identity of herself. She was actually given roles to perform by other people--her mother, her father, her imam (religious teacher), her husband Rasheed. I kept waiting to read when her wonderful moment would surface, but it didn't. I wanted so much for this character, who was deemed an outcast from the time she was born, to be uplifted, to have her fine day, but that never came, and I wondered why.

I think Khaled Hosseini's Miriam character was 'the' reality of what happens to a woman in Afghanistan.

---

I see what you mean, but I do love something about the picture of Miriam that we have---she was never really given anything, but was able to create a loving relationship--she had it in her, and when Laila and Aziza come into her life, when she sees a bit of respect and care from Laila, finds a bit of affection from the baby, she picks herself up and creates a scrap of happiness for them as a family. And it's worth everything to her, and she gives everything without hesitation, and when she's gone, those people she loved so dearly know exactly who she was, how strong she was. It's very moving for me, and it gives her character a nearly saintly stoicism. We may have been heartbroken by the story, but she never felt sorry for herself.

Did you feel there was anything hopeful about the novel overall?

[Sunltcloud]

Oh yes. Those thousand splendid suns that hide behind the walls. "Mariam is in Laila's own heart, where she shines with the bursting radiance of a thousand suns."
And there is the will to survive. There is love. Little Aziza. Babi. Tariq. The man who runs the orphanage.

There are little things. Sentences that shimmer in the darkness. Like this:

"Outside, mockingbirds were singing blithely, and, once in a while, when the songsters took flight, Mariam could see their wings catching the phosphorescent blue of moonlight beaming through the clouds.
And though her throat was parched with thirst and her feet burned with pins and needles, it was a long time before Mariam gently freed her fingers from the baby's grip and got up."

And of course there is Khaled Hosseini himself, who carries Afghanistan in his heart, and his wife and his children who inherit his memories.




Did you feel there was anything hopeful about the novel overall?

---

[Mariposa]

The book might end on a hopeful note but I believe that the reality in Afghanistan is less hopeful. I think the hopefulness is a kind of fiction too, I am sad to say.

I am just so emotionally exhausted. The mine collapse, the Peruvian earthquake, Hurricane Dean. . . and the numbing death rate in Iraq. Day after day after day.

Maybe I need to stop watching the news.

Lizabeth

[lasharp24]

I think that Hosseini did a marvelous job in bringing to life the brutality and oppression suffered by women in Afganistan. However, I believe that this brutality lives among most Muslim cultures. I recently read Ayaan Hirsi's memoir entitled "Infidel". She tells her story from her traditional Muslim childhood in Somalia, Saudi Arabia, and Kenya, to her intellectual awakening and activism in the Netherlands, and her current life under armed guard in the West.

She was raised in a strict Muslim family. She survived civil war, female mutilation, brutal beatings, adolescence as a devout believer during the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood, and life in four troubled, unstable countries largely ruled by despots. In her early twenties, she escaped from a forced marriage and sought asylum in the Netherlands, where she earned a college degree in political science, and fought for the rights of Muslim immigrant women and the reform of Islam as a member of Parliament.

Her iron clad will and unbending determination not to conform to life as an Islamic woman was most admirable. She is a crusader for her people. But more important, she truly made me understand how these woman tolerate such abuse. And, the long and the short of the matter is, that they don't know anything else. They are kept in such a cocoon. They are so brianwashed and so oppressed that the only thread of hope they have is to serve so that they will be favored in the hereafter. It is truly something us Westerners truly cannot quite comprehend.

I hope that more authors like Hosseini and Ali will enlighten the world so that sometime in the near future there will be hope freedom for these women.

[IBIS]

lasharp 24, thank you for your wonderful post and recommendation. I am planning to read Ayaan Hirsi's Infidel.

All these stories (fiction and non-fiction) are written to open up our eyes to the plight of women in other cultures. As a contemporary American woman, I am blessed to live in the US. I have been given much.

As the saying goes: For those who much has been given, much more will be expected from them.

[ann_m80]

Since you’re interested in Ayaan Hirsi Ali's work "Submission" and "Infidel", I thought you may want to check out a CNN documentary which features interviews with Ali.

CNN Presents: God’s Warriors is set to premiere Tuesday, August 21 (tonight!) and runs three continuous nights.

- CNN Presents: God’s Jewish Warriors on Tuesday, August 21, 9pm ET/PT
- CNN Presents: God’s Muslim Warriors on Wednesday, August 22, 9pm ET/PT
- CNN Presents: God’s Christian Warriors on Thursday, August 23, 9pm ET/PT

I am working with M80 on behalf of CNN to spread the word about this show. Hope you enjoy it!

[lasharp24]

---

ann_m80 wrote:
Since you’re interested in Ayaan Hirsi Ali's work "Submission" and "Infidel", I thought you may want to check out a CNN documentary which features interviews with Ali.

CNN Presents: God’s Warriors is set to premiere Tuesday, August 21 (tonight!) and runs three continuous nights.

- CNN Presents: God’s Jewish Warriors on Tuesday, August 21, 9pm ET/PT
- CNN Presents: God’s Muslim Warriors on Wednesday, August 22, 9pm ET/PT
- CNN Presents: God’s Christian Warriors on Thursday, August 23, 9pm ET/PT

I am working with M80 on behalf of CNN to spread the word about this show. Hope you enjoy it!

---

---

ann_m80 wrote:
Since you’re interested in Ayaan Hirsi Ali's work "Submission" and "Infidel", I thought you may want to check out a CNN documentary which features interviews with Ali.

CNN Presents: God’s Warriors is set to premiere Tuesday, August 21 (tonight!) and runs three continuous nights.

- CNN Presents: God’s Jewish Warriors on Tuesday, August 21, 9pm ET/PT
- CNN Presents: God’s Muslim Warriors on Wednesday, August 22, 9pm ET/PT
- CNN Presents: God’s Christian Warriors on Thursday, August 23, 9pm ET/PT

I am working with M80 on behalf of CNN to spread the word about this show. Hope you enjoy it!

---

Dear ann_m80:

Thank you for the information. I am going to set my Tivo right now. Yes, I am very interested in her work.

[aireloom]

Hello,
I am new to the B&N book clubs. I have yet to figure out the simpliest of things,but learning. Now is this discussion of "A Thousand Splendid Suns" over?I read the book but was not as impressed as with his first. I was hoping to get more from the discussions. Thank you

[Sunltcloud]

Good question. Usually a moderator will give a book discussion group an occasional boost by directing the readers' interest toward a variety of observations; in some groups there are weekly thought-provoking questions. I don't think this group had a good start. Maybe the subject matter is too serious, too painful to discuss. Little seems to have been analyzed so far, other than the plight of the women in Afghanistan.

Mr. Hosseini's writing is filled with poetic, very strong, artfully told passages. Before this discussion is really over I have several "favorite" paragraphs to share.

The first one is on page 130. Laila is concerned that her mother might commit suicide after her sons die in the war.
"Mammy was soon asleep, leaving Laila with dueling emotions reassured that Mammy meant to live on, stung that she was the reason. She would never leave her mark on Mammy's heart the way her brothers had, because Mammy's heart was like a pallid beach where Laila's footprints would forever wash away beneath the waves of sorrow that swelled and crashed, swelled and crashed."

Another one is a haunting indictment of war, on page 157.
"Morning brought no relief. The muezzin's call for namaz rang out, and the Mujahideen set down their guns, faced west, and prayed. Then the rugs were folded, the guns loaded, and the mountains fired on Kabul, and Kabul fired back at the mountains, as Laila and the rest of the city watched as helpless as old Santiago watching the sharks take bites out of his prize fish.

On page 290 a sad reflection. Aziza, in the orphanage, tries to hide her loneliness by telling her mother about the things she has learned, for instance about fractures in the earth's crust.
"Later, after Rasheed had dropped them off and taken a bus to work, Laila watched Aziza wave good-bye and scuff along the wall in the orphanage back lot. She thought of Aziza's stutter, and of what Aziza had said earlier, about fractures and powerful collisions deep down and how sometimes all we see on the surface is a slight tremor."

War, in my eyes, has the worst effect on children. I endured a bomb attack in the industrial North of Germany, after which many people fled their burning homes and were packed into the lobby and hallways of a hotel my mother and I stayed in. That night my mother comforted a crying baby with my only toy, a stuffed white rabbit. The next morning the refugees were taken to another location and I never saw my stuffed rabbit again. At the age of 40 I began to stitch a series of rabbits of all sizes, at least 50 of them; I gave them all names and characters,made up a story, and finally gave them all away to a homeless shelter. When I told my mother about this two-year project she started to cry and told me about the night of the bomb attack. I didn't know because I was only three, too young to remember. My "slight surface tremors" had morphed into stuffed animals.

Page 295 caught my attention because it shows the way people sometimes handle adversity with humor. Survival humor. Tariq talks about paintings of flamingos that a friend had done.
"When the Taliban had found the paintings, Tariq said, they'd taken offense at the birds' long, bare legs. After they'd tied the cousin's feet and flogged his soles bloody, they had presented him with a choice: Either destroy the paintings or make the flamingos decent. So the cousin had picked up his brush and painted trousers on every last bird. 'And there you have it. Islamic flamingos,' Tariq said."

Mr. Hosseini was asked if there is a connection between Kite Runner and A Thousand Splendid Suns. He said no, but added that he had brought in a reminder of the Kite Runner toward the end of the book. I think I found the connection. I think it is Mr. Zaman, the head of the orphanage in which Aziza stayed and in which Laila becomes a teacher. The same orphanage that Ali came to, to pick up Hassan's orphaned son in Kite Runner.

aireloom, I hope the discussion isn't over, it should last at least for the month of August.

---

aireloom wrote:
Hello,
I am new to the B&N book clubs. I have yet to figure out the simpliest of things,but learning. Now is this discussion of "A Thousand Splendid Suns" over?I read the book but was not as impressed as with his first. I was hoping to get more from the discussions. Thank you

---

[Chaser]

I kept waiting to read when her wonderful moment would surface, but it didn't. I wanted so much for this character, who was deemed an outcast from the time she was born, to be uplifted, to have her fine day, but that never came, and I wondered why.

Greentrees, this is exactly how I felt. I felt she was so close to part of it when the Mullah advocated for her education, but that her opportunities were all snatched away, and by the people closest to her. When I faced reading her execution scene, I read it very slowly and unwillingly. I did not want to let her go until she had those stolen opportunities back. But I guess she was somewhat redeemed by Laila and Aziza.

I believe you're right - this is the harsh reality of what women experience; many die without anything changing. I really felt the defeat of a life, for all intents and purposes, wasted. I don't know that she viewed it that way, but I had a hard time accepting the finality of her destiny.

[Rachel-K]

SunltCloud,

You raise so many wonderful moments and points for discussion, here, I hate to see them crowded together!

About our discussion: It will go on another month! We have time to delve!

It IS a difficult novel to sink into, difficult to get past the brutal pieces into the writing itself, the wonderful characterizations, the delicate balance the progression of these lives struggles to pace out: Doesn't it sometimes feel that every hopeful moment in the book might be overtaken by the fear that there is now something to lose? I was so happy for Laila and Miriam to begin drinking tea together in the yard, but the feeling was also blended with the fear that this was now something that Rasheed could take away from them, or a place they might get struck by a stray bullet!

It there a chance that the violence overtakes the reader's sensibilities, as it does the characters?

[Chaser]

I love how she stays with the baby despite her own discomfort. I think it reveals how desperately she needs this connection.

---

Sunltcloud wrote:
Oh yes. Those thousand splendid suns that hide behind the walls. "Mariam is in Laila's own heart, where she shines with the bursting radiance of a thousand suns."
And there is the will to survive. There is love. Little Aziza. Babi. Tariq. The man who runs the orphanage.

There are little things. Sentences that shimmer in the darkness. Like this:

"Outside, mockingbirds were singing blithely, and, once in a while, when the songsters took flight, Mariam could see their wings catching the phosphorescent blue of moonlight beaming through the clouds.
And though her throat was parched with thirst and her feet burned with pins and needles, it was a long time before Mariam gently freed her fingers from the baby's grip and got up."

And of course there is Khaled Hosseini himself, who carries Afghanistan in his heart, and his wife and his children who inherit his memories.




Did you feel there was anything hopeful about the novel overall?

---

---

I

[Chaser]

Ann_m80, I missed this. Is it available online at CNN.com?

---

ann_m80 wrote:
Since you’re interested in Ayaan Hirsi Ali's work "Submission" and "Infidel", I thought you may want to check out a CNN documentary which features interviews with Ali.

CNN Presents: God’s Warriors is set to premiere Tuesday, August 21 (tonight!) and runs three continuous nights.

- CNN Presents: God’s Jewish Warriors on Tuesday, August 21, 9pm ET/PT
- CNN Presents: God’s Muslim Warriors on Wednesday, August 22, 9pm ET/PT
- CNN Presents: God’s Christian Warriors on Thursday, August 23, 9pm ET/PT

I am working with M80 on behalf of CNN to spread the word about this show. Hope you enjoy it!

---

[Chaser]

Thank you so much for sharing this! These were some great passages, a few of them, like the Islamic flamingos, that I had forgotten. Absurdity to the next level!

I thought it was beautiful how you brought in your own response to the war experience of your childhood. I felt that you turned a tragic situation from long ago into hope for others fighting a different kind of war. You transformed a painful memory into a tangible expression of kindness. Cathartic for you, I'm sure; it is also brought healing to your mother. This seems cyclical in a very restorative way. I felt affected just by reading about it.

---

Sunltcloud wrote:
Good question. Usually a moderator will give a book discussion group an occasional boost by directing the readers' interest toward a variety of observations; in some groups there are weekly thought-provoking questions. I don't think this group had a good start. Maybe the subject matter is too serious, too painful to discuss. Little seems to have been analyzed so far, other than the plight of the women in Afghanistan.

Mr. Hosseini's writing is filled with poetic, very strong, artfully told passages. Before this discussion is really over I have several "favorite" paragraphs to share.

The first one is on page 130. Laila is concerned that her mother might commit suicide after her sons die in the war.
"Mammy was soon asleep, leaving Laila with dueling emotions reassured that Mammy meant to live on, stung that she was the reason. She would never leave her mark on Mammy's heart the way her brothers had, because Mammy's heart was like a pallid beach where Laila's footprints would forever wash away beneath the waves of sorrow that swelled and crashed, swelled and crashed."

Another one is a haunting indictment of war, on page 157.
"Morning brought no relief. The muezzin's call for namaz rang out, and the Mujahideen set down their guns, faced west, and prayed. Then the rugs were folded, the guns loaded, and the mountains fired on Kabul, and Kabul fired back at the mountains, as Laila and the rest of the city watched as helpless as old Santiago watching the sharks take bites out of his prize fish.

On page 290 a sad reflection. Aziza, in the orphanage, tries to hide her loneliness by telling her mother about the things she has learned, for instance about fractures in the earth's crust.
"Later, after Rasheed had dropped them off and taken a bus to work, Laila watched Aziza wave good-bye and scuff along the wall in the orphanage back lot. She thought of Aziza's stutter, and of what Aziza had said earlier, about fractures and powerful collisions deep down and how sometimes all we see on the surface is a slight tremor."

War, in my eyes, has the worst effect on children. I endured a bomb attack in the industrial North of Germany, after which many people fled their burning homes and were packed into the lobby and hallways of a hotel my mother and I stayed in. That night my mother comforted a crying baby with my only toy, a stuffed white rabbit. The next morning the refugees were taken to another location and I never saw my stuffed rabbit again. At the age of 40 I began to stitch a series of rabbits of all sizes, at least 50 of them; I gave them all names and characters,made up a story, and finally gave them all away to a homeless shelter. When I told my mother about this two-year project she started to cry and told me about the night of the bomb attack. I didn't know because I was only three, too young to remember. My "slight surface tremors" had morphed into stuffed animals.

Page 295 caught my attention because it shows the way people sometimes handle adversity with humor. Survival humor. Tariq talks about paintings of flamingos that a friend had done.
"When the Taliban had found the paintings, Tariq said, they'd taken offense at the birds' long, bare legs. After they'd tied the cousin's feet and flogged his soles bloody, they had presented him with a choice: Either destroy the paintings or make the flamingos decent. So the cousin had picked up his brush and painted trousers on every last bird. 'And there you have it. Islamic flamingos,' Tariq said."

Mr. Hosseini was asked if there is a connection between Kite Runner and A Thousand Splendid Suns. He said no, but added that he had brought in a reminder of the Kite Runner toward the end of the book. I think I found the connection. I think it is Mr. Zaman, the head of the orphanage in which Aziza stayed and in which Laila becomes a teacher. The same orphanage that Ali came to, to pick up Hassan's orphaned son in Kite Runner.

aireloom, I hope the discussion isn't over, it should last at least for the month of August.

---

aireloom wrote:
Hello,
I am new to the B&N book clubs. I have yet to figure out the simpliest of things,but learning. Now is this discussion of "A Thousand Splendid Suns" over?I read the book but was not as impressed as with his first. I was hoping to get more from the discussions. Thank you

---

---

[Chaser]

Yes, I too felt this teetering feeling along with the characters, and to be honest, I think the Afghans are feeling it as we speak with the Taliban resurgency.

Do you mean - does the violence take over our sensibilities so we are not able to delve beneath the surface?

---

rkubie wrote:
SunltCloud,

You raise so many wonderful moments and points for discussion, here, I hate to see them crowded together!

About our discussion: It will go on another month! We have time to delve!

It IS a difficult novel to sink into, difficult to get past the brutal pieces into the writing itself, the wonderful characterizations, the delicate balance the progression of these lives struggles to pace out: Doesn't it sometimes feel that every hopeful moment in the book might be overtaken by the fear that there is now something to lose? I was so happy for Laila and Miriam to begin drinking tea together in the yard, but the feeling was also blended with the fear that this was now something that Rasheed could take away from them, or a place they might get struck by a stray bullet!

It there a chance that the violence overtakes the reader's sensibilities, as it does the characters?

---