Sept 10--This Side of Paradise by F. Scott Fitzgerald-first 3 chapters

[kiakar]

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gluepot wrote:
Amory's early education (up until he goes off to prep school)was as he later succinctly puts it: Amory plus Beatrice, which I don't think was good for either one. They both suffer the consequences.

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This is so true, being with Beatrice for so long and not having boys his age to be with, probably did make him into "different". Could anyone explain this to me? On the last night of his first term at St. REgis, his senior master, Mr. Margotson called Amory in to his office for a serious conversation about Amory not being popular with the boys. He hems and haws and then saids he believes its because Amory is to fresh with them.. What does that mean? Does it mean, the conversations he does have with them, are too personal or maybe just doesn't make sense to them. I know it says he sulks alot, or stays with himself until he thinks people are noticing his aloneness. But why did Fitzgerald use this word "fresh."?

[kiakar]

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CallMeLeo wrote:
I'm enjoying TSOP for its youthful energy. This is a different Fitzgerald but it hints at the later one.

It seems that the young pre-WWI generation already had a headstart on the drinking, fun-loving, and more-open sexuality of the wild 20s. As Amory Blaine says, their parents are Victorians and don't seem to have a clue as to what their children are up to! Also, it is naive but I would never imagine a Victorian woman a closet alchoholic like Mrs. Blaine is, who prefers whiskey and soda over wine, so FSF must have raised some eyebrows with Mrs. Blaine being institionalized for symptoms very like delirium tremens.

I will honestly say I find Amory to be a something of a twerp in the beginning, and not very sympathetic. He appears to identify more with his mother, who had a handle on his upbringing. His father is practically non-existent. Do others see his early education at his mother's hands as contributing to his being an outsider as kiakar mentioned in another post? How did it make him different? Was his mother a good or bad influence on him?

I'm vague on the answers to some of these questions, so I would like to explore them with others if possible.

Message Edited by CallMeLeo on 09-11-2007 12:08 PM

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Leo, You are so right about the closet "drinking." I hadn't even realized that. So I wonder did Fitzgerald's mother drink and was a alcoholic like he was.? As I said, I believe Beatrice did have alot of negative influence on her son. Amory, besides the short time he was with his Aunt and Uncle , he and his mother lived on the road traveling around here and there. In hotels all over the world. So he had to have some odd conceptions to life after a life like that. And his father was not in the picture much at all. This of course, is quite different from Gatsby, but I am enjoying it. I have read to chapter four and chapter 3 seems to be picking up alittle. It seems its not as bland as the beginning was.

[foxycat]

Do you mean Amory's mother, or Scott's mother? or both?

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CallMeLeo wrote:
Do others see his early education at his mother's hands as contributing to his being an outsider as kiakar mentioned in another post? How did it make him different? Was his mother a good or bad influence on him?

[CallMeLeo]

Amory's mother. But it could be that Amory's mother and Scott's mother are very like eachother. My dustjacket (got the book!) states TSOP tracks the author's life fairly closely.

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foxycat wrote:
Do you mean Amory's mother, or Scott's mother? or both?

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CallMeLeo wrote:
Do others see his early education at his mother's hands as contributing to his being an outsider as kiakar mentioned in another post? How did it make him different? Was his mother a good or bad influence on him?

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Message Edited by CallMeLeo on 09-11-2007 04:14 PM

[foxycat]

E-notes called the book a satire, but I didn't find that description anywhere else. Amory IS tongue-in-cheek when he describes his mother's symptoms, and I saw it a few other times. I didn't even catch her alcoholism.

http://www.enotes.com/this-side/

But I don't know how reliable e-notes is or who writes for them. Anyone else see the book as a satire?

Message Edited by foxycat on 09-11-2007 05:54 PM

[foxycat]

Once again, from the American Masters show, you must hear E.L. Doctorow's commentary
on FSF http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/fitzgerald_f.html

This is not the same essay I posted earlier. Doctorow explores how SFS dealt with his perception, as he grew older, of his supposed failure. It's pure poetry from another master writer.

[CallMeLeo]

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gluepot wrote:
Amory's early education (up until he goes off to prep school)was as he later succinctly puts it: Amory plus Beatrice, which I don't think was good for either one. They both suffer the consequences.

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It's a disturbing look at the relationship of a doting parent and a spoiled only child. The child so knowing about the parent, with that mixture of love and derision.

[CallMeLeo]

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kiakar wrote:
On the last night of his first term at St. REgis, his senior master, Mr. Margotson called Amory in to his office for a serious conversation about Amory not being popular with the boys. He hems and haws and then saids he believes its because Amory is to fresh with them.. What does that mean? Does it mean, the conversations he does have with them, are too personal or maybe just doesn't make sense to them. I know it says he sulks alot, or stays with himself until he thinks people are noticing his aloneness. But why did Fitzgerald use this word "fresh."?

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That caught my attention too, kiakar, so after looking up the best possible definition I think "bold and saucy; impudent" fits the bill. It's probably a manner he used to try and impress his peers - to fit in - though it seemed to do the opposite.

[kiakar]

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CallMeLeo wrote:

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kiakar wrote:
On the last night of his first term at St. REgis, his senior master, Mr. Margotson called Amory in to his office for a serious conversation about Amory not being popular with the boys. He hems and haws and then saids he believes its because Amory is to fresh with them.. What does that mean? Does it mean, the conversations he does have with them, are too personal or maybe just doesn't make sense to them. I know it says he sulks alot, or stays with himself until he thinks people are noticing his aloneness. But why did Fitzgerald use this word "fresh."?

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That caught my attention too, kiakar, so after looking up the best possible definition I think "bold and saucy; impudent" fits the bill. It's probably a manner he used to try and impress his peers - to fit in - though it seemed to do the opposite.

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Thanks Leo. That sounds about right! Because it does mention argant a couple of times when the third person is describing his character.

[gluepot]

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CallMeLeo wrote:

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gluepot wrote:
Amory's early education (up until he goes off to prep school)was as he later succinctly puts it: Amory plus Beatrice, which I don't think was good for either one. They both suffer the consequences.

---

It's a disturbing look at the relationship of a doting parent and a spoiled only child. The child so knowing about the parent, with that mixture of love and derision.

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It takes alot of nerve, inner strength and more to talk about your own mother the way Amory feels he must. At his interview with the master at St. Regis, it seems to me that he is getting up that nerve, gathering the inner strength to do so. I can see why he would appear to be impudent. I forgot to add that, as CallMeLeo says he does so "with that mixture of love and derision" from my own experience children even very young children are very understanding and very forgiving,

gluepot

Message Edited by gluepot on 09-12-2007 08:59 AM

[kiakar]

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gluepot wrote:

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CallMeLeo wrote:

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gluepot wrote:
Amory's early education (up until he goes off to prep school)was as he later succinctly puts it: Amory plus Beatrice, which I don't think was good for either one. They both suffer the consequences.

---

It's a disturbing look at the relationship of a doting parent and a spoiled only child. The child so knowing about the parent, with that mixture of love and derision.

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It takes alot of nerve, inner strength and more to talk about your own mother the way Amory feels he must. At his interview with the master at St. Regis, it seems to me that he is getting up that nerve, gathering the inner strength to do so. I can see why he would appear to be impudent. I forgot to add that, as CallMeLeo says he does so "with that mixture of love and derision" from my own experience children even very young children are very understanding and very forgiving,

gluepot

Message Edited by gluepot on 09-12-2007 08:59 AM

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You are so right, gluepot; It affects children in their life but as far as loving their parents. Nothing will ever take away the love they have for their parents.

[kiakar]

What did you all think about Isabelle? Were Amory and Isabelle doomed to start with, because of the differencs they encountered in their characteritics.

[foxycat]

Has anyone found examples of the expressive poetic writing that we saw in "Gatsby?"

[foxycat]

I don't think they were so different. They're both spoiled, egotistical, and have an inflated self-image. But Isabelle is not too bright, and Amory is.

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kiakar wrote:
What did you all think about Isabelle? Were Amory and Isabelle doomed to start with, because of the differencs they encountered in their characteritics.

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[kiakar]

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foxycat wrote:
I don't think they were so different. They're both spoiled, egotistical, and have an inflated self-image. But Isabelle is not too bright, and Amory is.

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kiakar wrote:
What did you all think about Isabelle? Were Amory and Isabelle doomed to start with, because of the differencs they encountered in their characteritics.

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But Foxycat, she was smart enought to hold Amory off from kissing her forever. I thought that was cute! What she proved by it I don't know. Maybe because her cousin told her that Amory knew she had kissed other boys. She said she was not going to do that anymore.

[kiakar]

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foxycat wrote:
Has anyone found examples of the expressive poetic writing that we saw in "Gatsby?"

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I loved the scene after the guys come back to the boarding house from walking around Princeton. The other guys go to their room and Amory sits outside and gazes at his surroundings. Very beautiful writing by Fitzgerald. I read that part alot.

[foxycat]

Let's move on to the next 3 chapters, but I'm not caught up due to long work hours this week. You guys take over for a few days on the next thread.

[gluepot]

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foxycat wrote:
I don't think they were so different. They're both spoiled, egotistical, and have an inflated self-image. But Isabelle is not too bright, and Amory is.

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kiakar wrote:
What did you all think about Isabelle? Were Amory and Isabelle doomed to start with, because of the differencs they encountered in their characteritics.

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I thought at first that they were just two of the Beautiful People, or, in the parlance of 50 years ago, a cute couple. That is, until Isabelle vehemently complains that she always has to think when she's with Amory; he is always critising and analyzing "every little emotion and instinct." Apparently Amory has been doing this more and more as they go along. Isabelle believes in the here and now; Amory believes there is a past which cannot be ignored.

gluepot


It is the responsibility of society to let the poet be a poet
Grace Paley

[Krista]

You know it's funny but the first impression I got from what was meant by "kissing" I took it as meaning sex. What did you think about the introduction of the devil character?

[kiakar]

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Krista wrote:
You know it's funny but the first impression I got from what was meant by "kissing" I took it as meaning sex. What did you think about the introduction of the devil character?

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Krista; wasn't that something? When he had bad stuff on his mind he wanted to do to that girl he had visions of the devil. Now we all need help like that huh! When we are ready to sin, the devil makes us not do it!. I really liked that part. To me, the novel livened up alot after that. I wondered to if Isabelle and Amory were discussing sex other than just a kiss. My goodness, all of that over a kiss! I know its the 20's but hey, didn't they kiss more than that!

I think too, when the devil appeared, Amory really had intentions to have sex with that girl, can't remember her name, but then his consious bothered him enought to enthrall the devil his self to the scene.As if he willed him there to stop the sin!