WALDEN: April/May 2007 Discussion [ Edited ]

[pmath]

This thread is for our discussion of Henry David Thoreau's Walden, or, Life in the Woods. Here's a suggested schedule:

April 16 - 29: Chapters 1 - 3
April 30 - May 13: Chapters 4 - 12
May 14 - 27: Chapters 13 - 18
May 28 - 31: Wrap-Up

• Buy the Barnes & Noble Classics Mass Market Paperback Edition


• Buy the Barnes & Noble Paperback Edition


• Buy the Barnes & Noble Hardcover Edition


• Buy the Norton Critical Edition


• Buy the Dover Thrift Edition

Message Edited by pmath on 04-21-200706:41 PM

[pmath]

...the laboring man has not leisure for a true integrity day by day; he cannot afford to sustain the manliest relations to men; his labor would be depreciated in the market. He has no time to be anything but a machine. How can he remember well his ignorance -- which his growth requires -- who has so often to use his knowledge?

Is HDT saying we need to forget everything we've learned?

[pmath]

I had three pieces of limestone on my desk, but I was terrified to find that they required to be dusted daily, when the furniture of my mind was all undusted still, and threw them out the window in disgust. How, then, could I have a furnished house? I would rather sit in the open air, for no dust gathers on the grass, unless where man has broken ground.

I like HDT's sense of humor! How would you dust the "furniture" of your mind?

[Choisya]

This reminds me of other works which predate Walden. Plato's Republic differentiates the elite Guardians from the labourers and in Ancient Rome plebs were differentiated from the patricians. Spenser's Faerie Queen, which makes a lot of references to labour and contrasts the 'slog' of paid labour with the unpaid labour of the Queen and gentlemen. Paid work is what is done in Hell and there is emphasis instead on the Christian charity of doing unpaid work.

Similarly, Oscar Wilde in The Soul of Man Under Socialism (1848) says this about labour:-

'It is true that, under existing conditions, a few men who have had private means of their own, such as Byron, Shelley, Browning, Victor Hugo, Baudelaire, and others, have been able to realise their personality more or less completely. Not one
of these men ever did a single day's work for hire. They were relieved from poverty.... I cannot help saying that a great deal of nonsense is being written and talked nowadays about the dignity of manual labour. There is nothing necessarily dignified about manual labour at all, and most of it is absolutely degrading. It is mentally and morally injurious to man to do anything in which he does not find pleasure, and many forms of labour are quite pleasureless activities, and should be regarded as such. All [dirty] work...should be done by a machine.'

The degradation of work is a classical theme and many writers have sought to lessen the burden of it, Marxist writers in particular when writing about theoretical (not Soviet or Chinese) communism. I see reflections of this in what Thoreau wrote, especially as it was written soon after Wilde's essay and Marx's Communist Manifesto, both published in 1848, Walden in 1854. Wilde is particularly pertinent and I felt certain as I read Walden a couple of months ago (when it was mentioned by Bob Fanuzzi) that he had read The Soul of Man Under Socialism:-

http://www.online-literature.com/wilde/1309/

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pmath wrote:

...the laboring man has not leisure for a true integrity day by day; he cannot afford to sustain the manliest relations to men; his labor would be depreciated in the market. He has no time to be anything but a machine. How can he remember well his ignorance -- which his growth requires -- who has so often to use his knowledge?

Is HDT saying we need to forget everything we've learned?

---

Message Edited by Choisya on 04-17-200709:18 AM

[Choisya]

This is minimalism in the extreme isn't it. I would like to live in a minimalist environment but am far too untidy and too fond of collecting things. To dust my mind I would have to stop reading and using BNBC - far too high a price to pay. (And it wouldn't just be a dust either - it would need a good scrub and/or a high powered vacuum cleaner.)

---

pmath wrote:

I had three pieces of limestone on my desk, but I was terrified to find that they required to be dusted daily, when the furniture of my mind was all undusted still, and threw them out the window in disgust. How, then, could I have a furnished house? I would rather sit in the open air, for no dust gathers on the grass, unless where man has broken ground.

I like HDT's sense of humor! How would you dust the "furniture" of your mind?

---

Message Edited by Choisya on 04-17-200709:20 AM

[pmath]

Ha! What is the "furniture" HDT refers to?

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Choisya wrote:
To dust my mind I would have to stop reading and using BNBC - far too high a price to pay. (And it wouldn't just be a dust either - it would need a good scrub and/or a high powered vacuum cleaner.)

---

pmath wrote:

I had three pieces of limestone on my desk, but I was terrified to find that they required to be dusted daily, when the furniture of my mind was all undusted still, and threw them out the window in disgust. How, then, could I have a furnished house? I would rather sit in the open air, for no dust gathers on the grass, unless where man has broken ground.

I like HDT's sense of humor! How would you dust the "furniture" of your mind?

[pmath]

"When a town celebrates the busk," says [Bartram], "having previously provided themselves with new clothes, new pots, pans, and other household utensils and furniture, they collect all their worn out clothes and other despicable things, sweep and cleanse their houses, squares, and the whole town of their filth, which with all the remaining grain and other old provisions they cast together into one common heap, and consume it with fire. ..."

Talk about spring-cleaning!

[Choisya]

The use of the word 'busk' here is interesting because it is a word used by certain Native American tribes to describe a harvest-time cleansing ceremony, sometimes known as the Green Corn ceremony, which was also known to the Greeks. A 'busk' is a ceremonial cleansing, fasting and purification - a time when grievances are resolved, special meals are served and the embers from a ceremonial fire are distributed to other villages.

http://www.harvestfestivals.net/nativeamericanfestivals.htm

It is also reminiscent of the Jewish Passover when households 'cleanse' themselves of old crockery, pans, furnishings etc etc. This is to remove all traces of leavened bread ('chametz') from the house before celebrating the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt, when they could only take the minimum of household goods and unleavened bread. Where I formerly lived, I was close to a Jewish area and non-Jewish people always went to the charity shops after Passover because Jews would have taken many beautiful things there. Lamb is also cooked on a ceremonial fire in some areas to imitate the ancient Hebrew custom of sacrificing a lamb before they went on a journey.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/passover-seder-meal.html

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pmath wrote:

"When a town celebrates the busk," says [Bartram], "having previously provided themselves with new clothes, new pots, pans, and other household utensils and furniture, they collect all their worn out clothes and other despicable things, sweep and cleanse their houses, squares, and the whole town of their filth, which with all the remaining grain and other old provisions they cast together into one common heap, and consume it with fire. ..."

Talk about spring-cleaning!

---

Message Edited by Choisya on 04-18-200703:42 AM

Message Edited by Choisya on 04-18-200703:46 AM

[pmath]

Thanks, Choisya, for the very interesting information: did you purchase anything yourself?

[Choisya]

Yes, I often picked up pretty pieces of chinafor presents - my younger daughter collects unusual china cups and saucers. And when my elder daughter got married I purchased a lot of cookery utensils for her just after Passover.

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pmath wrote:
Thanks, Choisya, for the very interesting information: did you purchase anything yourself?

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[ziki]

pmath, I place some additional info under this post. Do you think we could adjust the schedule and start over from the beginning and perhaps take it in a slower tempo?


ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 04-25-200703:29 AM

[ziki]

http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/transcendentalism/authors/thoreau/walden/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/WALDEN/walden.html

This kind of thinking about the text could be used (take this as an example):

http://www.sgsd.k12.wi.us/homework/kanne/webpage%20stuff/HEng%2010/Am%20Lit/Romantics%20Literature/Walden_Thoreau%20Quotes.htm

searcheable Walden:
http://www.transcendentalists.com/walden.htm

http://thoreau.eserver.org/


We could look at symbolism in Walden, speak about what Transcendentalism is, discuss how and why Walden is important today, in what way it is "modern". What is the main message and supportive arguments for that..apart of why and if we enjoy the book.

Let's brainstorm and hear what else you'd like to talk about in connection to this book.

ziki

[ziki]

..they have plenty of them

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=Walden&z=y&cds2Pid=9481

[ziki]

http://librivox.org/walden-by-henry-david-thoreau/

[ziki]

http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/northeast/wldn.htm

[ziki]

Discussion Questions ( copy from web/discovery school)

1. One of Thoreau’s desires was to simplify his life. Explain how you would simplify your own life, giving consideration to Thoreau’s meaning of “clutter.” Is simplification just a matter of renouncing possessions, or is it something more?

2. Discuss the changes in American society and culture brought on by the Industrial Revolution, and how those changes may have sent Thoreau running for the woods to commune with nature.

3. “To suck out the marrow of life” is a quote from Thoreau. Explain what is meant by this advice for living advocated by Thoreau.
4. Discuss the symbolism in Thoreau’s decision to retreat to Walden Pond on July 4th, 1845.

5. Analyze one of the six quotes displayed in Walden and debate its meaning. What does the quote reveal about Thoreau, and could the quote be applicable to modern life?

-----

Spark Notes study questions:

href="http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/walden/study.html">http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/walden/study.ht...

Cliffs Notes
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/LitNote/id-159,pageNum-42.html

We could read this book in a different manner, really, in style with what Thoreau suggested and perhaps keep a journal and share from that experience.

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 04-24-200702:25 PM

Message Edited by ziki on 04-24-200702:28 PM

[ziki]

Go to the park, nature, find a quiet place and sit preferably for 5-10 minutes, eyes open or closed, doing nothing in particular. Observe how you feel, observe your thoughts, how they are moving in your head, stay detached from them if possible.

Make a note of this short meditation experience and share it with us if you like.

Could you imagine yourself living alone in nature?

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 04-24-200704:02 PM

[Choisya]

Thanks a lot Ziki! I had a friend who was a transcendalists but never did get onto her plane I am interested in the political and utopian aspects of Walden so will contribute on that level when I can.

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ziki wrote:
http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/transcendentalism/authors/thoreau/walden/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/WALDEN/walden.html

This kind of thinking about the text could be used (take this as an example):

http://www.sgsd.k12.wi.us/homework/kanne/webpage%20stuff/HEng%2010/Am%20Lit/Romantics%20Literature/Walden_Thoreau%20Quotes.htm

searcheable Walden:
http://www.transcendentalists.com/walden.htm

http://thoreau.eserver.org/


We could look at symbolism in Walden, speak about what Transcendentalism is, discuss how and why Walden is important today, in what way it is "modern". What is the main message and supportive arguments for that..apart of why and if we enjoy the book.

Let's brainstorm and hear what else you'd like to talk about in connection to this book.

ziki

---

Message Edited by Choisya on 04-25-200702:35 AM

[ziki]

I suspect that there are many facets to Walden. However, I never read the book so I am guessing. Once I started to read but it wasn't a right timing and I abandonned that.

ziki

[ziki]

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pmath wrote:

...the laboring man has not leisure for a true integrity day by day; he cannot afford to sustain the manliest relations to men; his labor would be depreciated in the market. He has no time to be anything but a machine. How can he remember well his ignorance -- which his growth requires -- who has so often to use his knowledge?

Is HDT saying we need to forget everything we've learned?

---

Ack, the use of words again. If I by ignorance mean innocence then yes, I need to forget all that I learned because it is only a borrowed knowledge that is of no use in personal growth and development.

HDT says in the first chapter (page one) that he requires from a writer sincerity, an account of his own life (not of that he heard from others). Often we just parrot summaries that others made and that is what we usually learn at school. We defend it by saying that we do not need to reinvent the wheel but in so doing we miss our true unique nature and distrust our primal inherent knowing (as differentiated [here] from knowledge) and inforce some unnecessary limitations on our mind and thinking patterns.

From the day one our mind is conditioned and we accept the concepts that are the base of language. Maybe if you were allowed to think freely you'd call banana a moon .

A teacher asked a boy what color the apple was. He said white. She said no, that is wrong, the apples are green or red or yellow but not white. The boy ate apples many times, he had a first hand experience of that. He cut the apple in half and showed her that the apple was white, inside.

It all depends but if your mind is conditioned, like the teacher's then it makes you 'blind'. In that respect we need to forget what we learned and look afresh.

For the purpose of survival of the species, however, the rationality is of course useful. But it also makes us talk more than listen.

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 04-25-200704:15 AM