Since 1997, you’ve been coming to BarnesandNoble.com to discuss everything from Stephen King to writing to Harry Potter. You’ve made our site more than a place to discover your next book: you’ve made it a community. But like all things internet, BN.com is growing and changing. We've said goodbye to our community message boards—but that doesn’t mean we won’t still be a place for adventurous readers to connect and discover.

Now, you can explore the most exciting new titles (and remember the classics) at the Barnes & Noble Book Blog. Check out conversations with authors like Jeff VanderMeer and Gary Shteyngart at the B&N Review, and browse write-ups of the best in literary fiction. Come to our Facebook page to weigh in on what it means to be a book nerd. Browse digital deals on the NOOK blog, tweet about books with us,or self-publish your latest novella with NOOK Press. And for those of you looking for support for your NOOK, the NOOK Support Forums will still be here.

We will continue to provide you with books that make you turn pages well past midnight, discover new worlds, and reunite with old friends. And we hope that you’ll continue to tell us how you’re doing, what you’re reading, and what books mean to you.

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Choisya
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs

[ Edited ]
I agree that the overall design is elegant but web designers have a duty to think about those with disabilities before they put their designs onto the internet and, as I have said elsewhere, there are international guidelines about the use of colours, contrast and brightness/luminosity (25% of internet users are visually impaired). Consulting an organisation for the blind, like the RNIB in the UK, would help - they have lots of recommendations about this sort of thing, not just for the blind but for those with eyesight problems in general. In the UK this website would be illegal because it discriminates against those with poor eyesight. There are also regulations in the US so it is clear that a great deal of thought has been given to this issue internationally and web designers should be aware of the recommendations as well as the law itself.

Link One

Link Two

Link Three

(I understand there is already a case in the US where a visually impaired person is taking a company to court about its web design.)

Enlarging the font will cause other difficulties and will not help the brightness. Making the font a darker brown would help but the overall design needs to be made much less bright by breaking up the screen, as formerly the lines did as has been pointed out by Everyman.

Without wishing anyone ill, I hope the BNBC have someone on their web-design staff who is visually impaired so that they can look at any re-designed website before it is served up before its customers. Indeed asking Everyman to vet it before it is re-launched might be an idea because the poor lad has recently had operations on his eyes:smileysad:.






IBIS wrote:
Overall, the graphic design of the New Look for Book Clubs has an elegant tone.

The striped wallpaper pattern is a nice use of B&N corporate colors. The photographic motifs of pens, coffee cups, authors' photographs and book covers .... very tastefully executed.

In general, the graphics are lovely.

But I do agree with many posters that the grayed text is difficult to read for readers with poor eyesight. Enlarging the font size may be helpful, and making the font solid black (or even a very dark, dark brown) may be a fine design alternative.

I suspect you will get a tsunami of comments, mostly negative. I've fdiscovered that in my career as a web designer, it takes several tries to satisfy the majority of users.

Message Edited by Choisya on 09-28-2007 02:13 PM

Message Edited by Admin, for formatting only.

Message Edited by Kevin on 09-30-2007 02:45 PM
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Choisya
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : PLEASE CHANGE THIS FORMAT QUICKLY!

[ Edited ]
Interesting thoughts Nadine but folks come here to read books online, not to grapple with computer technical language:smileysad:. I like the Hansel and Gretel analogy:smileyhappy:.




Nadine wrote:
"breadcrumbs" stopped me, too, and I have lived my life in the computer/telecom industries. My best guess is that we used to have a series of addresses that we could click on and be taken back to that level in the (addressing) hierarchy. Each step (address) in that series would be a "breadcrumb." At least, it was the loss of that feature that blew my mind this morning -- because that is where/how I checked if other boards had new messages I wanted to check out.
-----------------------------------------

Hey, maybe we have a classical reference here. Didn't Hansel and Gretel leave breadcrumbs so they could find their way back home. Unfortunately, I think something came along and ate them so they couldn't find their way back. Maybe the same thing has happened here. :smileyhappy:



Message Edited by Choisya on 09-28-2007 01:55 PM
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vivico1
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : PLEASE CHANGE THIS FORMAT QUICKLY!

Ahh Choiysa my old friend!
I have bad eyes too, developing cataracts too, and trying so much to be able keep up with the reading on something that now is such a strain on my eyes that I have to keep walking away from it and coming back. I can agree with the one person on here who said something about maybe your going for a more elegant look, excuse me whoever that was I am not trying to quote you but use your expression :smileywink: but we are reading clubs, post and notes and stories and for hours. We dont need elegance. If we were just reading a formal invitation of some kind, light tans would be good and soothing on the eyes, but invitations were not meant to be read for hours at a sitting, so the effect is quite the contrast to soothing. I too have messed with my monitor contrasts until now I have it all messed up and all my sites are a bit gray, and it never made this font look darker! Firefox will, make it black on white and some of the names or threads even come up blue which is cool but you lose completely anything on the page that delineates the threads. This color scheme nearly does. Even in pm, I hit on the same one three times today trying to get to the next one!

I agree with you Choiysa that this is bad but girl,"This new format is a great mistake and in fact contravenes international recommendations on web design regarding luminosity and contrast." ??? LOL,ok you nearly got me laughing enough to clear this congestion out of my chest on that complaint! I bet its against the Geneva convention too! Ok, you know you can find a website that will explain this to them i.e. your point,you always have those up the sleeve so pull one out and post it here. lol. Oh my my lol. I can't stop giggling!
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Jessica
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- UPDATES!

Hi again,

First, thanks for the quick and clear feedback, everyone.

We've been huddling with the designers this morning, and are happy to report that some of the "bugs" are working their way out. The basic text color is now restored to a darker font. And the "breadcrumbs" (those little navigation links near the top of the page) are back.

We'll keep looking at what's going on, and we'll inevitably be making adjustments over time. But the changes today are a good start.

Thanks again for the useful insight -- and keep the conversations going!

Jessica
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Choisya
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- UPDATES!

[ Edited ]
Thanks Jessica - the darker font is a bit better but it doesn't address the problem of the overall brightness of the screen and the lack of divisions to break it up. Nor is it showing up when we are inputting a post, just when it is submitted. Back to the drawing board...






Jessica wrote:
Hi again,

First, thanks for the quick and clear feedback, everyone.

We've been huddling with the designers this morning, and are happy to report that some of the "bugs" are working their way out. The basic text color is now restored to a darker font. And the "breadcrumbs" (those little navigation links near the top of the page) are back.

We'll keep looking at what's going on, and we'll inevitably be making adjustments over time. But the changes today are a good start.

Thanks again for the useful insight -- and keep the conversations going!

Jessica



Message Edited by Choisya on 09-28-2007 02:22 PM
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thinker
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs

I agree with you here Ibis, the new look is great
But its still in creation mode (you web designers have your jargon) so i take it the necessary improvements are forthcoming

in brief its ok, just do some work on those headings maybe all should be in a dark color like the line which highlight links for "Book Clubs Home" etc. the brown on brown or beige on beige or whatever just isnt working the way the general intro in the band at the top of the page has been placed is a classic, I like it

And Ibis I know how it feels trying to satisfy everyone, after working in the areas of graphic design, desktop publishing and editing, I think only once I actually produced something that everyone loved
Thinker
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Choisya
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : PLEASE CHANGE THIS FORMAT QUICKLY!

Hi Vivico - I am very sorry to hear about your eyesight:smileysad: I have pulled a couple of links out of my hat in another post which might further amuse you:smileysurprised:. I have been online for about fifteen minutes, with a break, and my eyes are watering. As you say, if we turn down our brightness it affects other websites we access. However, I do not think we should be expected to use Firefox or any other software to make this site accessible.



vivico1 wrote:
Ahh Choiysa my old friend!
I have bad eyes too, developing cataracts too, and trying so much to be able keep up with the reading on something that now is such a strain on my eyes that I have to keep walking away from it and coming back. I can agree with the one person on here who said something about maybe your going for a more elegant look, excuse me whoever that was I am not trying to quote you but use your expression :smileywink: but we are reading clubs, post and notes and stories and for hours. We dont need elegance. If we were just reading a formal invitation of some kind, light tans would be good and soothing on the eyes, but invitations were not meant to be read for hours at a sitting, so the effect is quite the contrast to soothing. I too have messed with my monitor contrasts until now I have it all messed up and all my sites are a bit gray, and it never made this font look darker! Firefox will, make it black on white and some of the names or threads even come up blue which is cool but you lose completely anything on the page that delineates the threads. This color scheme nearly does. Even in pm, I hit on the same one three times today trying to get to the next one!

I agree with you Choiysa that this is bad but girl,"This new format is a great mistake and in fact contravenes international recommendations on web design regarding luminosity and contrast." ??? LOL,ok you nearly got me laughing enough to clear this congestion out of my chest on that complaint! I bet its against the Geneva convention too! Ok, you know you can find a website that will explain this to them i.e. your point,you always have those up the sleeve so pull one out and post it here. lol. Oh my my lol. I can't stop giggling!


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Choisya
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs

[ Edited ]
Thinker: This is not purely a question of design, it is a question of accessibility for the visually impaired. This design is actually hurting the eyes of some of us and making it impossible for us to stay online to make posts. Indeed the best thing for us to do at the moment is to compose everything offline and then copy and paste to BNBC. That doesn't help us when reading posts but it will cut down the amount of time we have to look at the very bright screen. Wearing sunspecs helps a little but causes other problems.




thinker wrote:
I agree with you here Ibis, the new look is great
But its still in creation mode (you web designers have your jargon) so i take it the necessary improvements are forthcoming

in brief its ok, just do some work on those headings maybe all should be in a dark color like the line which highlight links for "Book Clubs Home" etc. the brown on brown or beige on beige or whatever just isnt working the way the general intro in the band at the top of the page has been placed is a classic, I like it

And Ibis I know how it feels trying to satisfy everyone, after working in the areas of graphic design, desktop publishing and editing, I think only once I actually produced something that everyone loved



Message Edited by Choisya on 09-28-2007 02:35 PM
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vivico1
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- UPDATES!


Jessica wrote:
Hi again,

First, thanks for the quick and clear feedback, everyone.

We've been huddling with the designers this morning, and are happy to report that some of the "bugs" are working their way out. The basic text color is now restored to a darker font. And the "breadcrumbs" (those little navigation links near the top of the page) are back.

We'll keep looking at what's going on, and we'll inevitably be making adjustments over time. But the changes today are a good start.

Thanks again for the useful insight -- and keep the conversations going!

Jessica


Jessica, its this tan period that causes the eyestrain because its not enough of a contrast. If the font is darker, I can't tell it on this tan and when you read the first post on a thread, where the tan is a bit darker, its even worse! I have not posted anything today but to this, I cant stick with the others long enough :smileysad:. A blue, light blue even, would be a much better contrast background with a little darker blue for threads, and would still give a more muted look if thats what they are going for. But no matter how dark you make the font, against a tan, the whole board doesnt work. Its nice to see the breadcrumbs at the top again and its at least bold enough font for me to read but can we lose the tan altogether???


Choisya, how did I know you would have some site posted somewhere to back up your point? LOL!
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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rbehr
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- UPDATES!

Thanks for the prompt feedback - that was a good move. I was involved with software releases for a while and found that keeping the user community briefed on what's going on with software releases causes the community to be a lot more settled. Just knowing a problem is recognized and being addressed is comforting.


Jessica wrote:
Hi again,

First, thanks for the quick and clear feedback, everyone.

We've been huddling with the designers this morning, and are happy to report that some of the "bugs" are working their way out. The basic text color is now restored to a darker font. And the "breadcrumbs" (those little navigation links near the top of the page) are back.

We'll keep looking at what's going on, and we'll inevitably be making adjustments over time. But the changes today are a good start.

Thanks again for the useful insight -- and keep the conversations going!

Jessica

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IBIS
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- UPDATES!

Jessica, wonderful prompt response! Thanks!

The black font is much much better!

And knowing that our concerns are being addressed will make the transition (and acceptance) a whole lot smoother!!!!
IBIS

"I am a part of everything that I have read."
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cindersue
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- UPDATES!



IBIS wrote:
Jessica, wonderful prompt response! Thanks!

The black font is much much better!

And knowing that our concerns are being addressed will make the transition (and acceptance) a whole lot smoother!!!!




I still don't notice a change with the font. It's still gray. But, I'm glad to know B&N is working on it.

So, breadcrumbs are at the top ... hmmmmm
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Everyman
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- UPDATES!

I agree with Choisya's points. Back to the drawing board may be a bit harsh, but additional tinkering to satisfy both the designers and the users needs would be appreciated.


Choisya wrote:
Thanks Jessica - the darker font is a bit better but it doesn't address the problem of the overall brightness of the screen and the lack of divisions to break it up. Nor is it showing up when we are inputting a post, just when it is submitted. Back to the drawing board...






Jessica wrote:
Hi again,

First, thanks for the quick and clear feedback, everyone.

We've been huddling with the designers this morning, and are happy to report that some of the "bugs" are working their way out. The basic text color is now restored to a darker font. And the "breadcrumbs" (those little navigation links near the top of the page) are back.

We'll keep looking at what's going on, and we'll inevitably be making adjustments over time. But the changes today are a good start.

Thanks again for the useful insight -- and keep the conversations going!

Jessica



Message Edited by Choisya on 09-28-2007 02:22 PM


_______________
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Everyman
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs

Well, Jessica, I guess that the response to your attempts to make the site look snazzier is "no good deed goes unpunished"!

The text is darker for me in reading posts, but in the reply box it's still faint. And some of the menu choices (such as the options, next message, etc.) are still quite faint.

I hope you don't mind us bugging you about all this, but it just shows how anxious we are to be able to participate here!
_______________
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vivico1
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- UPDATES!

[ Edited ]

cindersue wrote:


IBIS wrote:
Jessica, wonderful prompt response! Thanks!

The black font is much much better!

And knowing that our concerns are being addressed will make the transition (and acceptance) a whole lot smoother!!!!




I still don't notice a change with the font. It's still gray. But, I'm glad to know B&N is working on it.

So, breadcrumbs are at the top ... hmmmmm


lol, cindersue, about the crumbs...remember at the top of your bookclub in that green bar before, would be the name of the book and the author, so if you were reading posts or finished one, you could just click up there to get back to the main page? That was gone, its back and in nice bold print. Great start! now for a better color contrast and we will all be able to read better and longer. Cause on my screen, even this font doesnt look darker than yesterday.

One more thing about why tan doesnt work for me, besides as I said before, the contrast just wont be there and you cant see the highlights of the threads or delineations...with tan to write on here, it just makes me keep thinking the screen is dirty and so I cant see. I know I know, and yes I have cleaned the screen so that didnt help! :smileywink: Anyone else notice that dirty look?

Message Edited by vivico1 on 09-28-2007 06:07 PM
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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vivico1
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- UPDATES!


Everyman wrote:
I agree with Choisya's points. Back to the drawing board may be a bit harsh, but additional tinkering to satisfy both the designers and the users needs would be appreciated.


Choisya wrote:
Thanks Jessica - the darker font is a bit better but it doesn't address the problem of the overall brightness of the screen and the lack of divisions to break it up. Nor is it showing up when we are inputting a post, just when it is submitted. Back to the drawing board...




Message Edited by Choisya on 09-28-2007 02:22 PM





Everyman, I do understand and appreciate the work of designers but at the same time, isn't it about what satisfies the user really? I mean thats really their creative work, not to satisfy themself. I dont mean that in a bad way, I just mean we do need them to design for us the readers. I have faith that they can do a great job of making it MUCH more user friendly, else we lose the purpose of the clubs.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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bentley
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- UPDATES!

Jessica,

It is tough to see where you should be typing when putting in the Message Subject. I think some delineation would be helpful, otherwise the text seems to be floating on the page without fields or navigation bars. It is hard to know where to place the cursor. That should be very clear to the user. The current nav bars do not stand out enough. A deeper hue would help otherwise everything looks about the same and of equal value.

Also, at the top of each board, look as an example at the Crime Club...

There are New Message, Board Options, Front Page, Previous Page, Next Page locations. (These are way too light especially the last three).

Overall, I agree with the folks who have posted that it is very tough to please everyone. I think there are many great improvements and I think it is far more elegant than it looked before. I do think you should provide for the users the option to be able to make their text darker and bolder. That would help a few. Also, like a lot of sites have..allow the users to also increase the size of the font itself in addition to the text intensity. This would definately help.

Having eye problems myself (serious ones) I can say that folks who have low vision problems would find the off white background with the light text impossible to look at for a long period of time. There are devices that you can add to your computer to help with low vision; but many get away without using them because the vast number of web sites all have a bright white background for clarity with clear distinct text. Your site to those folks would look like someone turned off the light or one of the bulbs was burning out and things looked dim.

I love that you are experimenting with change and improving the look. But there are a few kinks which need to be worked out and it is obvious to me that you are working on them. What troubles me the most is the floating text without clear defined boundaries. Low Vision folks will find this impossible. Still happy with the changes aside from the above which should be noted and corrected.

Bentley
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foxycat
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Re: A second for the darker font--Changing colors in IE and Firefox

Hi, Vivian,

for Firefox: Tools--Options--Content tab, then Colors button. Choose Black text, white background, check "Use Windows colors>' That means the standard 16 colors in the original Windows. Uncheck "Allow pages to use their own colors." But you also lose all the boxes and grids.

Problem is that the site won't run on my Firefox (v. 2.0.0.7) any more. :smileysad: :smileysad: :smileysad: :smileysad: Links don't work. I'm really ticked off. :smileysad: :smileysad: :smileysad: :smileysad: :smileysad: :smileysad:

In theory you can change IE to black and white too, (Tools--Internet Options--General tab--Colors) but because of bugs in this new format, this site refuses to change. So I'm nowe looking at IE with the gray on tan. Am thinking of leaving,:smileysad: but I have an American Classics groups that relies on me.

Does anyone know who we complain to officially?
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. --Oscar Wilde

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foxycat
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Re: A second for the darker font--Changing text size in IE

Another problem in IE is that you can usually change the text size with the "View--Text Size" in the menu bar. This site now refuses to change, although it did before.

There's nothing wrong with my eyes, but this is awful. I don't want elegant, I want practical.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. --Oscar Wilde

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foxycat
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Re: To Everyman

I have Firefox 2.0.0.6. I'm on automatic FF and TB updates. The links have stopped working, although I can change the colors and font size. I guess that lack of consistency between users is one of the bugs. :smileysad:



Everyman wrote:


foxycat wrote:
Thirdly, and worst, the site no longer works with Firefox. The links produce javascript errors.

Have you upgraded to the latest version of Firefox? I have version 2.0.0.6, and it works fine. Of course, I can barely read it, but at least the links work.


Everyman--
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. --Oscar Wilde