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foxycat
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs-- My assessment after 2 weeks

[ Edited ]
The dark green text and new gray box outlines are fine for me. The gray text of the posts and minuscule gray text of the private messages still should be black
However, everyone's monitor is different, so for some people the problem areas may be lighter or darker.

And why do we still have to enter HTML manually? I belong to many other forums, and they all have built-in HTML.

Message Edited by foxycat on 10-10-2007 09:26 PM
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. --Oscar Wilde

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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs-- My assessment after 2 weeks


foxycat wrote:
The dark green text and new gray box outlines are fine for me. The gray text of the posts and minuscule gray text of the private messages still should be black
However, everyone's monitor is different, so for some people the problem areas may be lighter or darker.

And why do we still have to enter HTML manually? I belong to many other forums, and they all have built-in HTML.

Message Edited by foxycat on 10-10-2007 09:26 PM



Its not so much my monitor, its my eyes with this! Well, its my monitor some now on other sites because I kept changing it so much for this one since I spend most of my time here, that now I cant find a good medium for those other sites either. The green print is just very very difficult and yes too small in selection box, pms are green and small. But see, if enough of you feel this is fine and say so, then some of us who never had a problem until now and can't do anything more for ourselves on our end, will be left in the dust, blinded, if its fine with enough others. And thats what's hard when you have physical problems that others don't, if its not all of the people having problems then we are expendible. :smileysad:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Choisya
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs-- My assessment after 2 weeks

[ Edited ]
vivico1 wrote:
Its not so much my monitor, its my eyes with this! Well, its my monitor some now on other sites because I kept changing it so much for this one since I spend most of my time here, that now I cant find a good medium for those other sites either. The green print is just very very difficult and yes too small in selection box, pms are green and small. But see, if enough of you feel this is fine and say so, then some of us who never had a problem until now and can't do anything more for ourselves on our end, will be left in the dust, blinded, if its fine with enough others. And thats what's hard when you have physical problems that others don't, if its not all of the people having problems then we are expendible.


I am very sorry to hear that you are still having problems Vivico. A corporate website like this should be user-friendly for everyone so I hope they will fix it so that everyone feels comfortable. Have you written a PM to Jessica about your specific problems?

Originally I turned down the brightness on my screen and enlarged the font and that helped. Have you tried that?

The only problem I have now is one I have always had and that is with the Drop-down menu for Current Discussions where the font is very small which makes it difficult for an arthritic hand to click on any item there. If more space were given to that and less to the Advertisement perhaps the font could be enlarged? (But, of course, advertisements bring in the lolly:smileyhappy:.)

Message Edited by Choisya on 10-11-2007 01:43 AM
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs-- My assessment after 2 weeks

[ Edited ]
Vivico--I didn't mean to imply you were expendable. You're taking it too personally. I also said that some people's monitors are darker or lighter than others, and, incidentally, have various color shifts. If you see the PM's as green, there's something wrong with your monitor, but the PM's are indeed awful without that.

I promise not to say anything positive about the format again. :smileyvery-happy:

Message Edited by foxycat on 10-11-2007 02:13 AM
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. --Oscar Wilde

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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs-- My assessment after 2 weeks


Choisya wrote:
vivico1 wrote:
Its not so much my monitor, its my eyes with this! Well, its my monitor some now on other sites because I kept changing it so much for this one since I spend most of my time here, that now I cant find a good medium for those other sites either. The green print is just very very difficult and yes too small in selection box, pms are green and small. But see, if enough of you feel this is fine and say so, then some of us who never had a problem until now and can't do anything more for ourselves on our end, will be left in the dust, blinded, if its fine with enough others. And thats what's hard when you have physical problems that others don't, if its not all of the people having problems then we are expendible.


I am very sorry to hear that you are still having problems Vivico. A corporate website like this should be user-friendly for everyone so I hope they will fix it so that everyone feels comfortable. Have you written a PM to Jessica about your specific problems?

Originally I turned down the brightness on my screen and enlarged the font and that helped. Have you tried that?

The only problem I have now is one I have always had and that is with the Drop-down menu for Current Discussions where the font is very small which makes it difficult for an arthritic hand to click on any item there. If more space were given to that and less to the Advertisement perhaps the font could be enlarged? (But, of course, advertisements bring in the lolly:smileyhappy:.)

Message Edited by Choisya on 10-11-2007 01:43 AM


one of the side affects of raising the font size, is that it does make the drop down windows and pms smaller Choisya, barely readable. So yeah you have to keep going back and forth upping the size of the screen, then down when you are done typing so I finally downsized the font again and worked more on the contrast controls again. I have tried everything that is possible to do in the site itself and on my monitor. Thats why now I cant find what my best settings were before. I didnt write them down and cant find the best combinations anymore for my other sites, but at least I am not changing the size of the pages on them constantly too now because I stopped doing that in here. I have had to try to brighten my screen, not decrease the brightness, to try to clean up the type to a sharper clarity and when that got to bright and colors of other things too light, i went back to trying contrast changes again. Green type is just a really poor color font overall. I think I would be happy with just that change, just chance all the green font to a real black and I can deal with it longer at least. Even the black on the tan at the top looks better than the green on the gray or tan areas. If they can get the font color right, theres a good chance we can go back to default settings for font size and stuff like we had before and then that will make the drop down boxes, like for bookclub names AND the pms, the same size they were before and readable. Its the font color that is making us do these changes for ourselves that then will cause problems in other areas i.e. size of type. Remember, Kevin said you could change the font size but it would mess with other things, well thats one of them and if you still have your font size up much from default,thats why they look so small to you know because those things seem to stay in the default size even with the rest changed, so they get tiny. I have had some headaches this week and also using eye drops from my eyes getting so tired so fast.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs-- My assessment after 2 weeks

[ Edited ]
Oh dear oh dear Vivico - I am so sorry to hear all this. I agree that the current green on grey is a bad combination but some greens are considered to be a good colour for the visually impaired. These are just too pale and are too near in the colour spectrum to grey. I changed my font size within XP which has, as you say, affected other things but I can cope with that. I also altered contrast within XP but altered the brightness on my screen manually. I am not sure that changing the type face to black (as someone suggested) will solve the problem either because that would give too much contrast on the generally white page, especially when we are typing posts. I use a website where the Webmaster paid a lot of attention to the visually impaired because he is visually impaired himself and he has used a fairly bright green background with a bold black typeface. If we had a green background and a darker grey typeface for all posts/PMs etc it might help? Maybe B&N could experiment with this, using a visually impaired member of staff perhaps?

BTW Foxycat is right about your monitor - PMs aren't green and neither is the Current Discussion dropdown box, which is all white/grey. The PM box has some palish green headings but in the main is much as the posting box. What software are you using?




vivico1 wrote:

Choisya wrote:
vivico1 wrote:
Its not so much my monitor, its my eyes with this! Well, its my monitor some now on other sites because I kept changing it so much for this one since I spend most of my time here, that now I cant find a good medium for those other sites either. The green print is just very very difficult and yes too small in selection box, pms are green and small. But see, if enough of you feel this is fine and say so, then some of us who never had a problem until now and can't do anything more for ourselves on our end, will be left in the dust, blinded, if its fine with enough others. And thats what's hard when you have physical problems that others don't, if its not all of the people having problems then we are expendible.


I am very sorry to hear that you are still having problems Vivico. A corporate website like this should be user-friendly for everyone so I hope they will fix it so that everyone feels comfortable. Have you written a PM to Jessica about your specific problems?

Originally I turned down the brightness on my screen and enlarged the font and that helped. Have you tried that?

The only problem I have now is one I have always had and that is with the Drop-down menu for Current Discussions where the font is very small which makes it difficult for an arthritic hand to click on any item there. If more space were given to that and less to the Advertisement perhaps the font could be enlarged? (But, of course, advertisements bring in the lolly:smileyhappy:.)

Message Edited by Choisya on 10-11-2007 01:43 AM


one of the side affects of raising the font size, is that it does make the drop down windows and pms smaller Choisya, barely readable. So yeah you have to keep going back and forth upping the size of the screen, then down when you are done typing so I finally downsized the font again and worked more on the contrast controls again. I have tried everything that is possible to do in the site itself and on my monitor. Thats why now I cant find what my best settings were before. I didnt write them down and cant find the best combinations anymore for my other sites, but at least I am not changing the size of the pages on them constantly too now because I stopped doing that in here. I have had to try to brighten my screen, not decrease the brightness, to try to clean up the type to a sharper clarity and when that got to bright and colors of other things too light, i went back to trying contrast changes again. Green type is just a really poor color font overall. I think I would be happy with just that change, just chance all the green font to a real black and I can deal with it longer at least. Even the black on the tan at the top looks better than the green on the gray or tan areas. If they can get the font color right, theres a good chance we can go back to default settings for font size and stuff like we had before and then that will make the drop down boxes, like for bookclub names AND the pms, the same size they were before and readable. Its the font color that is making us do these changes for ourselves that then will cause problems in other areas i.e. size of type. Remember, Kevin said you could change the font size but it would mess with other things, well thats one of them and if you still have your font size up much from default,thats why they look so small to you know because those things seem to stay in the default size even with the rest changed, so they get tiny. I have had some headaches this week and also using eye drops from my eyes getting so tired so fast.



Message Edited by Choisya on 10-11-2007 08:48 AM

Message Edited by Choisya on 10-11-2007 08:50 AM
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Jessica
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A New Look for Book Clubs - reminder

Hi All,

Just a reminder -- in all the redesigning going on, we never changed a single default font size. They're all the same as they were prior to redesign.

However, don't forget that you can go to My Profile > Preferences Tab > and under Display Settings, change the font size (only applies to *your view* of the book clubs, not the rest of bn.com).

Thanks!
Jessica
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs-- My assessment after 2 weeks


Choisya wrote:


BTW Foxycat is right about your monitor - PMs aren't green and neither is the Current Discussion dropdown box, which is all white/grey. The PM box has some palish green headings but in the main is much as the posting box. What software are you using?




vivico1 wrote:

Choisya wrote:
vivico1 wrote:
Its not so much my monitor, its my eyes with this! Well, its my monitor some now on other sites because I kept changing it so much for this one since I spend most of my time here, that now I cant find a good medium for those other sites either. The green print is just very very difficult and yes too small in selection box, pms are green and small. But see, if enough of you feel this is fine and say so, then some of us who never had a problem until now and can't do anything more for ourselves on our end, will be left in the dust, blinded, if its fine with enough others. And thats what's hard when you have physical problems that others don't, if its not all of the people having problems then we are expendible.



The only problem I have now is one I have always had and that is with the Drop-down menu for Current Discussions where the font is very small which makes it difficult for an arthritic hand to click on any item there. If more space were given to that and less to the Advertisement perhaps the font could be enlarged? (But, of course, advertisements bring in the lolly:smileyhappy:.)

Message Edited by Choisya on 10-11-2007 01:43 AM


one of the side affects of raising the font size, is that it does make the drop down windows and pms smaller Choisya, barely readable. So yeah you have to keep going back and forth upping the size of the screen, then down when you are done typing so I finally downsized the font again and worked more on the contrast controls again. I have tried everything that is possible to do in the site itself and on my monitor. Thats why now I cant find what my best settings were before. I didnt write them down and cant find the best combinations anymore for my other sites, but at least I am not changing the size of the pages on them constantly too now because I stopped doing that in here. I have had to try to brighten my screen, not decrease the brightness, to try to clean up the type to a sharper clarity and when that got to bright and colors of other things too light, i went back to trying contrast changes again. Green type is just a really poor color font overall. I think I would be happy with just that change, just chance all the green font to a real black and I can deal with it longer at least. Even the black on the tan at the top looks better than the green on the gray or tan areas. If they can get the font color right, theres a good chance we can go back to default settings for font size and stuff like we had before and then that will make the drop down boxes, like for bookclub names AND the pms, the same size they were before and readable. Its the font color that is making us do these changes for ourselves that then will cause problems in other areas i.e. size of type. Remember, Kevin said you could change the font size but it would mess with other things, well thats one of them and if you still have your font size up much from default,thats why they look so small to you know because those things seem to stay in the default size even with the rest changed, so they get tiny. I have had some headaches this week and also using eye drops from my eyes getting so tired so fast.



Message Edited by Choisya on 10-11-2007 08:48 AM

Message Edited by Choisya on 10-11-2007 08:50 AM


no no no, I didnt mean the pm's and dropdown boxes are green, the words on the subject headings on them are, like other the other green print in here,thats not my monitor. What I said or meant to say bout the pms and drop downs, is when you raise the site fonts, the SIZE of those become very very small and that that is part of the things kevin is talking about could change if you changed your font size to much.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Laurel
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs - reminder

Jessica, it's not the font size that is the problem: it is the font style. The style I see for the text has a small x-height and long ascenders and descenders. This makes it look smaller than, say, Times Textbook. Each letter also varies in width, making parts of the letter fade out.

Jessica wrote:
Hi All,

Just a reminder -- in all the redesigning going on, we never changed a single default font size. They're all the same as they were prior to redesign.

However, don't forget that you can go to My Profile > Preferences Tab > and under Display Settings, change the font size (only applies to *your view* of the book clubs, not the rest of bn.com).

Thanks!
Jessica


"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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vivico1
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs - reminder


Jessica wrote:
Hi All,

Just a reminder -- in all the redesigning going on, we never changed a single default font size. They're all the same as they were prior to redesign.

However, don't forget that you can go to My Profile > Preferences Tab > and under Display Settings, change the font size (only applies to *your view* of the book clubs, not the rest of bn.com).

Thanks!
Jessica


See, this is what I was trying to say about, by raising your font size in here, it will change *your view* but not anything on B&N so thats why this stuff will look bigger but the drop down boxes and pms will appear a lot smaller because its still the default size. So you have to raise your page size up to see them, then down to read them after you write them. I thought that might be it. Jessica, if you know, can you tell us now, so I can, well I dont know what I can do then, but anyway. are we stuck with green print and lighter type that, at least others still think is too light? Is this it now for changes? I really can at least read the black on gray better at least than when it was tan there at least and am grateful for that but the green is so light and fuzzy Jessica :smileysad: Is this really it now on the readability issue?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Everyman
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : Bentley, Everyman??

I'm still finding the site more challenging that it was before the changes were made. It's better than it was, but even after I have changed font sizes and dimmed my monitor, it's not back up to the visual comfort level it had before the rework started.

I'm able to work more than ten minutes or so at a time, but not nearly as long as I used to -- I'm seldom on for more than 20 minutes at a time, whereas in the past I could easily spend an hour or more reading and writing with no discomfort.

The result is that I have severely cut back the number of forums I read and post in. Pre-changes, I would have been participating regularly in the Wharton, Iliad, and American Classics sections as well as the First Look and Ilana Simons, and would have been trying to stimulate at least some discussion in the British Classics, Shakespeare, and Tom Jones groups, not to mention keeping up with the posts in the Community Room and Fiction General sections.

But now I can only keep up with one or two active sections before I start to feel eye discomfort. I'm marking a lot of posts in what used to be favorite forums as read even when I just can't manage to read them.

As has been said before, but bears repeating, not all change is progress.


Choisya wrote:
I was wondering whether our most visually challenged readers, Bentley and Everyman, are now finding the boards better? I find there is a considerable improvement although I think the fonts could still be a little darker, as foxycat suggests. They are OK in the Report Abuse section (which I just looked at) but still pale for posting and posts, and when you type a PM. The darker grey areas are now breaking up the page so that the overall brightness has diminished, which was another problem everyone reported. If the same font colour as in the Report Abuse section could be used overall, I think everything would be OK. Do others agree?

Thanks to all concerned for the improvements.


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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : Bentley, Everyman??



vivico1 wrote:
... I am trying really hard to get used to the new stuff, the lighter colors. and the gray vs light tan on the sides helps BUT, I am still having such a hard time reading things :smileysad: . This green print instead of black, which I guess is what the small type is too? Is just so fuzzy to me compared to a crisp dark black. especially on this muted white even that we write on, or the tan it shows up on when you first read the new ones.

I have a lot of BN print editions, and what is interesting is that every single BN book I have is printed in crisp black print on plain white paper. Not one is green type, not one is on grey or beige paper.

They recognize that this is what readers find most comfortable and enjoyable to read.

Too bad their web designers couldn't have learned from their book designers what is best for serious readers.
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : Bentley, Everyman??

[ Edited ]
I am not so sure that book design is comparable with web design Everyman. The web page is twice as large as the average book and a lot of black against white might look too stark. The screen also has a luminosity - a 'shininess' - which a book page does not. Very few websites use black typefaces overall, they are usually a deep grey similar to this one. Black on a paler shade of the green used here might work well - green is reckoned to be a soothing online colour for the eyes. Have a look at the Penguin website and see if you find the dark gray typeface on pale green OK there. I find the posting page 'whiteness' too much and feel that a pale green background might help - what do you think?

Have you found any of the improvements help or are you still having a lot of difficulty? (I wonder how Bentley is getting on.)




Everyman wrote:


vivico1 wrote:
... I am trying really hard to get used to the new stuff, the lighter colors. and the gray vs light tan on the sides helps BUT, I am still having such a hard time reading things :smileysad: . This green print instead of black, which I guess is what the small type is too? Is just so fuzzy to me compared to a crisp dark black. especially on this muted white even that we write on, or the tan it shows up on when you first read the new ones.

I have a lot of BN print editions, and what is interesting is that every single BN book I have is printed in crisp black print on plain white paper. Not one is green type, not one is on grey or beige paper.

They recognize that this is what readers find most comfortable and enjoyable to read.

Too bad their web designers couldn't have learned from their book designers what is best for serious readers.



Message Edited by Choisya on 10-12-2007 10:40 AM
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bentley
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs -- Text size in browser


cindersue wrote:


bentley wrote:


foxycat wrote:
Bentley---that's only in Firefox. In IE it's View--Text Size on the menu bar.




I only use Internet Explorer; not using Foxfire. You can also do View - text size if you like but I like the versatility/ease of the ctrl/+ better. I want to see the gradient change.




I like using the "speed controls" too Bentley. Guess that's an old habit from when I worked with dos commands. :smileywink:




Same here Cindersue. :smileyhappy:
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : Bentley, Everyman??

[ Edited ]

Everyman wrote:
I'm still finding the site more challenging that it was before the changes were made. It's better than it was, but even after I have changed font sizes and dimmed my monitor, it's not back up to the visual comfort level it had before the rework started.

I'm able to work more than ten minutes or so at a time, but not nearly as long as I used to -- I'm seldom on for more than 20 minutes at a time, whereas in the past I could easily spend an hour or more reading and writing with no discomfort.

The result is that I have severely cut back the number of forums I read and post in. Pre-changes, I would have been participating regularly in the Wharton, Iliad, and American Classics sections as well as the First Look and Ilana Simons, and would have been trying to stimulate at least some discussion in the British Classics, Shakespeare, and Tom Jones groups, not to mention keeping up with the posts in the Community Room and Fiction General sections.

But now I can only keep up with one or two active sections before I start to feel eye discomfort. I'm marking a lot of posts in what used to be favorite forums as read even when I just can't manage to read them.

As has been said before, but bears repeating, not all change is progress.


Choisya wrote:
I was wondering whether our most visually challenged readers, Bentley and Everyman, are now finding the boards better? I find there is a considerable improvement although I think the fonts could still be a little darker, as foxycat suggests. They are OK in the Report Abuse section (which I just looked at) but still pale for posting and posts, and when you type a PM. The darker grey areas are now breaking up the page so that the overall brightness has diminished, which was another problem everyone reported. If the same font colour as in the Report Abuse section could be used overall, I think everything would be OK. Do others agree?

Thanks to all concerned for the improvements.







Hello Everyman,

I have been away from this discussion and was catching up on the notes. I have to agree with Everyman that what I find more distracting is the overall brightness (which would of course affect low vision folks who see things with less brightness anyway). The background to me looks washed out (that is really the only way that I can explain it)..like a white fabric which has yellowed with age and has lost its glory. I find the recent changes to be better overall and thank you B&N for that. But why not make the background white that the text is on and I think that would alleviate the problem. For me and I am only speaking for myself, the font color is not bothering me as much as the background that it is on. I do not know if that is clear or the same for all. But it is so blah that for me it is a little wavy (a little distortion not bad). Eyes like my own and potentially Everyman (but Everyman I do not want to speak for you) are affected by these subtleties. And normal eyes need solid lighting too..so the diminished volume of background luminosity is what is bothering me.

Where I have been affected the most, is then being able to do reading for the forums after being on line. My eyes are more tired overall but I realize that no matter what age you are (young or old) if your eyes have been affected; then the end result is the same. Why not just change the background on the pages that are in the bookclub to the crisper white and maybe even with the font color the way it is now; it may help tremendously. This is not just a change being asked for by those who have or who had eye problems, the luminosity is definitely not there and will contribute to eye strain for even the most normal of eyes.

Every web designer has the ability to affect changes at the page level or tab/group level; that would not change your overall look and feel which I know is so important to marketing and the overall elegance. This is a matter of a choice (is it readability or is it subtlety); for the reading/forum pages, it should be a readability decision.

Anyways that is my input.

Regards,

Bentley

PS: I went back in and bolded it for Everyman


Message Edited by bentley on 10-12-2007 12:34 PM
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : Submitted Posts and Posting Page

I agree that brightness and luminosity are the problem and I am only suffering from astigmatism which is sensitive to light. I found the bolded type on white difficult to read and really do wonder if the problem could be solved (as on the Penguin website) by using a pale green background? The posts when submitted are now easier to read because the whiteness has been broken up by the grey borders and I think we now need the page where we post to have some sort of visual aid - like a pale green background? I frequently post on a website that has a mid-green background with Comic Sans type in black and that is very easy to use - the Webmaster is visually impaired. I don't suggest this radical solution to BNBC designers but a pale green background might prove to be helpful and I think it is worth trying.

Also, another point, the Arial font used is without serifs and it is generally considered that serifs help readability. Does anyone have any views on this?

Everyman: Are you finding the submitted posts less difficult to read, as I do, but still having the same difficulty as myself with the overall brightness/luminosity of the posting page?




bentley wrote:

Everyman wrote:
I'm still finding the site more challenging that it was before the changes were made. It's better than it was, but even after I have changed font sizes and dimmed my monitor, it's not back up to the visual comfort level it had before the rework started.

I'm able to work more than ten minutes or so at a time, but not nearly as long as I used to -- I'm seldom on for more than 20 minutes at a time, whereas in the past I could easily spend an hour or more reading and writing with no discomfort.

The result is that I have severely cut back the number of forums I read and post in. Pre-changes, I would have been participating regularly in the Wharton, Iliad, and American Classics sections as well as the First Look and Ilana Simons, and would have been trying to stimulate at least some discussion in the British Classics, Shakespeare, and Tom Jones groups, not to mention keeping up with the posts in the Community Room and Fiction General sections.

But now I can only keep up with one or two active sections before I start to feel eye discomfort. I'm marking a lot of posts in what used to be favorite forums as read even when I just can't manage to read them.

As has been said before, but bears repeating, not all change is progress.


Choisya wrote:
I was wondering whether our most visually challenged readers, Bentley and Everyman, are now finding the boards better? I find there is a considerable improvement although I think the fonts could still be a little darker, as foxycat suggests. They are OK in the Report Abuse section (which I just looked at) but still pale for posting and posts, and when you type a PM. The darker grey areas are now breaking up the page so that the overall brightness has diminished, which was another problem everyone reported. If the same font colour as in the Report Abuse section could be used overall, I think everything would be OK. Do others agree?

Thanks to all concerned for the improvements.







Hello Everyman,

I have been away from this discussion and was catching up on the notes. I have to agree with Everyman that what I find more distracting is the overall brightness (which would of course affect low vision folks who see things with less brightness anyway). The background to me looks washed out (that is really the only way that I can explain it)..like a white fabric which has yellowed with age and has lost its glory. I find the recent changes to be better overall and thank you B&N for that. But why not make the background white that the text is on and I think that would alleviate the problem. For me and I am only speaking for myself, the font color is not bothering me as much as the background that it is on. I do not know if that is clear or the same for all. But it is so blah that for me it is a little wavy (a little distortion not bad). Eyes like my own and potentially Everyman (but Everyman I do not want to speak for you) are affected by these subtleties. And normal eyes need solid lighting too..so the diminished volume of background luminosity is what is bothering me.

Where I have been affected the most, is then being able to do reading for the forums after being on line. My eyes are more tired overall but I realize that no matter what age you are (young or old) if your eyes have been affected; then the end result is the same. Why not just change the background on the pages that are in the bookclub to the crisper white and maybe even with the font color the way it is now; it may help tremendously. This is not just a change being asked for by those who have or who had eye problems, the luminosity is definitely not there and will contribute to eye strain for even the most normal of eyes.

Every web designer has the ability to affect changes at the page level or tab/group level; that would not change your overall look and feel which I know is so important to marketing and the overall elegance. This is a matter of a choice (is it readability or is it subtlety); for the reading/forum pages, it should be a readability decision.

Anyways that is my input.

Regards,

Bentley

PS: I went back in and bolded it for Everyman


Message Edited by bentley on 10-12-2007 12:34 PM


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Everyman
Posts: 9,216
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : Submitted Posts and Posting Page

I found the bolded type on white difficult to read

While I appreciate Bentley's concern, I too found the bolded type more difficult to read, given that I have the font ramped up already.
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Laurel
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : Submitted Posts and Posting Page

Choisya, I have usually preferred serifs, but I have been noticing that the sans serif type an the B&N regular pages is much easier to read than the washed-out serif type that is used here. You mention Comic Sans. I always choose it now when I am typing something that I want to be able to read. it's friendly, readable, and--inviting.

Choisya wrote:
I agree that brightness and luminosity are the problem and I am only suffering from astigmatism which is sensitive to light. I found the bolded type on white difficult to read and really do wonder if the problem could be solved (as on the Penguin website) by using a pale green background? The posts when submitted are now easier to read because the whiteness has been broken up by the grey borders and I think we now need the page where we post to have some sort of visual aid - like a pale green background? I frequently post on a website that has a mid-green background with Comic Sans type in black and that is very easy to use - the Webmaster is visually impaired. I don't suggest this radical solution to BNBC designers but a pale green background might prove to be helpful and I think it is worth trying.

Also, another point, the Arial font used is without serifs and it is generally considered that serifs help readability. Does anyone have any views on this?

Everyman: Are you finding the submitted posts less difficult to read, as I do, but still having the same difficulty as myself with the overall brightness/luminosity of the posting page?




bentley wrote:

Everyman wrote:
I'm still finding the site more challenging that it was before the changes were made. It's better than it was, but even after I have changed font sizes and dimmed my monitor, it's not back up to the visual comfort level it had before the rework started.

I'm able to work more than ten minutes or so at a time, but not nearly as long as I used to -- I'm seldom on for more than 20 minutes at a time, whereas in the past I could easily spend an hour or more reading and writing with no discomfort.

The result is that I have severely cut back the number of forums I read and post in. Pre-changes, I would have been participating regularly in the Wharton, Iliad, and American Classics sections as well as the First Look and Ilana Simons, and would have been trying to stimulate at least some discussion in the British Classics, Shakespeare, and Tom Jones groups, not to mention keeping up with the posts in the Community Room and Fiction General sections.

But now I can only keep up with one or two active sections before I start to feel eye discomfort. I'm marking a lot of posts in what used to be favorite forums as read even when I just can't manage to read them.

As has been said before, but bears repeating, not all change is progress.


Choisya wrote:
I was wondering whether our most visually challenged readers, Bentley and Everyman, are now finding the boards better? I find there is a considerable improvement although I think the fonts could still be a little darker, as foxycat suggests. They are OK in the Report Abuse section (which I just looked at) but still pale for posting and posts, and when you type a PM. The darker grey areas are now breaking up the page so that the overall brightness has diminished, which was another problem everyone reported. If the same font colour as in the Report Abuse section could be used overall, I think everything would be OK. Do others agree?

Thanks to all concerned for the improvements.







Hello Everyman,

I have been away from this discussion and was catching up on the notes. I have to agree with Everyman that what I find more distracting is the overall brightness (which would of course affect low vision folks who see things with less brightness anyway). The background to me looks washed out (that is really the only way that I can explain it)..like a white fabric which has yellowed with age and has lost its glory. I find the recent changes to be better overall and thank you B&N for that. But why not make the background white that the text is on and I think that would alleviate the problem. For me and I am only speaking for myself, the font color is not bothering me as much as the background that it is on. I do not know if that is clear or the same for all. But it is so blah that for me it is a little wavy (a little distortion not bad). Eyes like my own and potentially Everyman (but Everyman I do not want to speak for you) are affected by these subtleties. And normal eyes need solid lighting too..so the diminished volume of background luminosity is what is bothering me.

Where I have been affected the most, is then being able to do reading for the forums after being on line. My eyes are more tired overall but I realize that no matter what age you are (young or old) if your eyes have been affected; then the end result is the same. Why not just change the background on the pages that are in the bookclub to the crisper white and maybe even with the font color the way it is now; it may help tremendously. This is not just a change being asked for by those who have or who had eye problems, the luminosity is definitely not there and will contribute to eye strain for even the most normal of eyes.

Every web designer has the ability to affect changes at the page level or tab/group level; that would not change your overall look and feel which I know is so important to marketing and the overall elegance. This is a matter of a choice (is it readability or is it subtlety); for the reading/forum pages, it should be a readability decision.

Anyways that is my input.

Regards,

Bentley

PS: I went back in and bolded it for Everyman


Message Edited by bentley on 10-12-2007 12:34 PM





"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : Submitted Posts and Posting Page - Fonts

[ Edited ]
Do you mean the Times Roman font used on the posting page Laurel - I agree that it is a poor one to use, especially in grey, and that the Arial (or Microsoft) sans serif on the submitted pages looks better. Times Roman is also rather old fashioned in appearance - the roundness of Bookman Old Style or Georgia might be better. Verdana is another good sans-serif font which is slightly larger than Arial/Microsoft. Comic Sans is a font that is used a lot to improve readability but it is always very black and might not suit some. It tends to look better on darker backgrounds. Also, emboldening it makes little difference and sometimes we wish to embolden when we post.





Laurel wrote:
Choisya, I have usually preferred serifs, but I have been noticing that the sans serif type an the B&N regular pages is much easier to read than the washed-out serif type that is used here. You mention Comic Sans. I always choose it now when I am typing something that I want to be able to read. it's friendly, readable, and--inviting.

Choisya wrote:
I agree that brightness and luminosity are the problem and I am only suffering from astigmatism which is sensitive to light. I found the bolded type on white difficult to read and really do wonder if the problem could be solved (as on the Penguin website) by using a pale green background? The posts when submitted are now easier to read because the whiteness has been broken up by the grey borders and I think we now need the page where we post to have some sort of visual aid - like a pale green background? I frequently post on a website that has a mid-green background with Comic Sans type in black and that is very easy to use - the Webmaster is visually impaired. I don't suggest this radical solution to BNBC designers but a pale green background might prove to be helpful and I think it is worth trying.

Also, another point, the Arial font used is without serifs and it is generally considered that serifs help readability. Does anyone have any views on this?

Everyman: Are you finding the submitted posts less difficult to read, as I do, but still having the same difficulty as myself with the overall brightness/luminosity of the posting page?




bentley wrote:

Everyman wrote:
I'm still finding the site more challenging that it was before the changes were made. It's better than it was, but even after I have changed font sizes and dimmed my monitor, it's not back up to the visual comfort level it had before the rework started.

I'm able to work more than ten minutes or so at a time, but not nearly as long as I used to -- I'm seldom on for more than 20 minutes at a time, whereas in the past I could easily spend an hour or more reading and writing with no discomfort.

The result is that I have severely cut back the number of forums I read and post in. Pre-changes, I would have been participating regularly in the Wharton, Iliad, and American Classics sections as well as the First Look and Ilana Simons, and would have been trying to stimulate at least some discussion in the British Classics, Shakespeare, and Tom Jones groups, not to mention keeping up with the posts in the Community Room and Fiction General sections.

But now I can only keep up with one or two active sections before I start to feel eye discomfort. I'm marking a lot of posts in what used to be favorite forums as read even when I just can't manage to read them.

As has been said before, but bears repeating, not all change is progress.


Choisya wrote:
I was wondering whether our most visually challenged readers, Bentley and Everyman, are now finding the boards better? I find there is a considerable improvement although I think the fonts could still be a little darker, as foxycat suggests. They are OK in the Report Abuse section (which I just looked at) but still pale for posting and posts, and when you type a PM. The darker grey areas are now breaking up the page so that the overall brightness has diminished, which was another problem everyone reported. If the same font colour as in the Report Abuse section could be used overall, I think everything would be OK. Do others agree?

Thanks to all concerned for the improvements.







Hello Everyman,

I have been away from this discussion and was catching up on the notes. I have to agree with Everyman that what I find more distracting is the overall brightness (which would of course affect low vision folks who see things with less brightness anyway). The background to me looks washed out (that is really the only way that I can explain it)..like a white fabric which has yellowed with age and has lost its glory. I find the recent changes to be better overall and thank you B&N for that. But why not make the background white that the text is on and I think that would alleviate the problem. For me and I am only speaking for myself, the font color is not bothering me as much as the background that it is on. I do not know if that is clear or the same for all. But it is so blah that for me it is a little wavy (a little distortion not bad). Eyes like my own and potentially Everyman (but Everyman I do not want to speak for you) are affected by these subtleties. And normal eyes need solid lighting too..so the diminished volume of background luminosity is what is bothering me.

Where I have been affected the most, is then being able to do reading for the forums after being on line. My eyes are more tired overall but I realize that no matter what age you are (young or old) if your eyes have been affected; then the end result is the same. Why not just change the background on the pages that are in the bookclub to the crisper white and maybe even with the font color the way it is now; it may help tremendously. This is not just a change being asked for by those who have or who had eye problems, the luminosity is definitely not there and will contribute to eye strain for even the most normal of eyes.

Every web designer has the ability to affect changes at the page level or tab/group level; that would not change your overall look and feel which I know is so important to marketing and the overall elegance. This is a matter of a choice (is it readability or is it subtlety); for the reading/forum pages, it should be a readability decision.

Anyways that is my input.

Regards,

Bentley

PS: I went back in and bolded it for Everyman


Message Edited by bentley on 10-12-2007 12:34 PM









Message Edited by Choisya on 10-13-2007 02:16 PM
Scribe
Laurel
Posts: 5,747
Registered: ‎10-29-2006
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Re: A New Look for Book Clubs : Submitted Posts and Posting Page - Fonts

I'm not sure that it is Times Roman. I did some experiments on a Wordpad page and found that my Times Roman does not fade out the way whatever they are using does. Perhaps it does have to do with color, though. Whatever they are using gives me the same experience as trying to read a page of italics.

Choisya wrote:
Do you mean the Times Roman font used on the posting page Laurel - I agree that it is a poor one to use, especially in grey, and that the Arial (or Microsoft) sans serif on the submitted pages looks better. Times Roman is also rather old fashioned in appearance - the roundness of Bookman Old Style or Georgia might be better. Verdana is another good sans-serif font which is slightly larger than Arial/Microsoft. Comic Sans is a font that is used a lot to improve readability but it is always very black and might not suit some. It tends to look better on darker backgrounds. Also, emboldening it makes little difference and sometimes we wish to embolden when we post.





Laurel wrote:
Choisya, I have usually preferred serifs, but I have been noticing that the sans serif type an the B&N regular pages is much easier to read than the washed-out serif type that is used here. You mention Comic Sans. I always choose it now when I am typing something that I want to be able to read. it's friendly, readable, and--inviting.

Choisya wrote:
I agree that brightness and luminosity are the problem and I am only suffering from astigmatism which is sensitive to light. I found the bolded type on white difficult to read and really do wonder if the problem could be solved (as on the Penguin website) by using a pale green background? The posts when submitted are now easier to read because the whiteness has been broken up by the grey borders and I think we now need the page where we post to have some sort of visual aid - like a pale green background? I frequently post on a website that has a mid-green background with Comic Sans type in black and that is very easy to use - the Webmaster is visually impaired. I don't suggest this radical solution to BNBC designers but a pale green background might prove to be helpful and I think it is worth trying.

Also, another point, the Arial font used is without serifs and it is generally considered that serifs help readability. Does anyone have any views on this?

Everyman: Are you finding the submitted posts less difficult to read, as I do, but still having the same difficulty as myself with the overall brightness/luminosity of the posting page?




bentley wrote:

Everyman wrote:
I'm still finding the site more challenging that it was before the changes were made. It's better than it was, but even after I have changed font sizes and dimmed my monitor, it's not back up to the visual comfort level it had before the rework started.

I'm able to work more than ten minutes or so at a time, but not nearly as long as I used to -- I'm seldom on for more than 20 minutes at a time, whereas in the past I could easily spend an hour or more reading and writing with no discomfort.

The result is that I have severely cut back the number of forums I read and post in. Pre-changes, I would have been participating regularly in the Wharton, Iliad, and American Classics sections as well as the First Look and Ilana Simons, and would have been trying to stimulate at least some discussion in the British Classics, Shakespeare, and Tom Jones groups, not to mention keeping up with the posts in the Community Room and Fiction General sections.

But now I can only keep up with one or two active sections before I start to feel eye discomfort. I'm marking a lot of posts in what used to be favorite forums as read even when I just can't manage to read them.

As has been said before, but bears repeating, not all change is progress.


Choisya wrote:
I was wondering whether our most visually challenged readers, Bentley and Everyman, are now finding the boards better? I find there is a considerable improvement although I think the fonts could still be a little darker, as foxycat suggests. They are OK in the Report Abuse section (which I just looked at) but still pale for posting and posts, and when you type a PM. The darker grey areas are now breaking up the page so that the overall brightness has diminished, which was another problem everyone reported. If the same font colour as in the Report Abuse section could be used overall, I think everything would be OK. Do others agree?

Thanks to all concerned for the improvements.







Hello Everyman,

I have been away from this discussion and was catching up on the notes. I have to agree with Everyman that what I find more distracting is the overall brightness (which would of course affect low vision folks who see things with less brightness anyway). The background to me looks washed out (that is really the only way that I can explain it)..like a white fabric which has yellowed with age and has lost its glory. I find the recent changes to be better overall and thank you B&N for that. But why not make the background white that the text is on and I think that would alleviate the problem. For me and I am only speaking for myself, the font color is not bothering me as much as the background that it is on. I do not know if that is clear or the same for all. But it is so blah that for me it is a little wavy (a little distortion not bad). Eyes like my own and potentially Everyman (but Everyman I do not want to speak for you) are affected by these subtleties. And normal eyes need solid lighting too..so the diminished volume of background luminosity is what is bothering me.

Where I have been affected the most, is then being able to do reading for the forums after being on line. My eyes are more tired overall but I realize that no matter what age you are (young or old) if your eyes have been affected; then the end result is the same. Why not just change the background on the pages that are in the bookclub to the crisper white and maybe even with the font color the way it is now; it may help tremendously. This is not just a change being asked for by those who have or who had eye problems, the luminosity is definitely not there and will contribute to eye strain for even the most normal of eyes.

Every web designer has the ability to affect changes at the page level or tab/group level; that would not change your overall look and feel which I know is so important to marketing and the overall elegance. This is a matter of a choice (is it readability or is it subtlety); for the reading/forum pages, it should be a readability decision.

Anyways that is my input.

Regards,

Bentley

PS: I went back in and bolded it for Everyman


Message Edited by bentley on 10-12-2007 12:34 PM









Message Edited by Choisya on 10-13-2007 02:16 PM


"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton