Feather Man Discussion, Part 1 (Lionel) -- pages 13-107/ poetic turn of a phrase

[vivico1]

No Kiakar, lol, I never said I didn't think we get them here at all in the US. And I know what pinworms are. What I was saying was, is this a big problem in Australia? You don't hear about it much here at all. I never knew anyone who had them, you don't hear them discussed on tv or medical shows or anything much here and hey, I was a play in the dirt, cruddy little tomboy growing up lol. This was not even a problem with most of the foster kids I knew of coming out of just the most filthy houses you can imagine. I know some do tho, its just not that common here and what threw me was how her mother talked about them like its just a very common thing there and Sooky knows better! And how they tried to take care of them. That's why I had said to you, is this a common problem down there? (no pun intended) Is this what they are talking about or something else and this is what Sooky calls them? That's what I was wondering, did I get it right and is this a common problem in Australia that her mom talked about it like it was.

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kiakar wrote:

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IBIS wrote:

The worms are actual worms, otherwise known as "pinworms". They are white and breed inside the large intestine. One obvious symptom is itchiness. On p. 19, Sooky describes them as the "glassy white of rice noodles with a pointy tail that whipped round, frenzied, as if it didn't like the light".

Very bad personal hygiene is a common source of infection ... which makes Lionel doubly damnable.

IBIS

Message Edited by IBIS on 09-02-2008 01:42 PM

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You are right, IBIS. Vivian didn't think we had ever had worms in the US. I have heard of them all my life. If a child plays in dirt, fifth and so forth and doesn't wash before the hands go back in the mouth, they can get worms today. Sookie did not bath or wash when she came in from the dirt, she simply went to bed and to sleep. Her mom then took the covers off the bed, not concerning with Sookie at all. So she still didnt bath, that I remember. Especially around animal feces, so I understand.

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[vivico1]

You know, I was wondering about Sooky's mental health, I mean in general, before the attacks even. I won't say whether she was adorable or not, thats a different matter and seeing things through her eyes, I didn't really get a sense of her that way one way or the other. Not that kids are "adorable" in the general sense. But as for her mentality, let me see if I can find some examples of what I mean....she said on her walks to primary school, she would "observe a set of obessive rituals". She was pretty much of a loner. Well, heck I can't find the exact quote now, but she is talking about being on her father's shoulders to watch a parade and that she never understood the group mentality of cheering together, group cohesion basically but I don't remember the words she uses. She says when she sees them do that, she does not join in, she just turns away. And she is in and out of her own world of thoughts so much, it is hard to know time, as we have mentioned, or was something happening or was she thinking it sometimes, that I wonder if she had some problems mentally, not just emotionally before Lionel even got to her. It is hard to tell if these were before or after, a kind of PTSD, but it sounds like she had troubles before too. I can understand from her screwed up parents, getting screwed up, that might be part of it, but something seems wrong with her already and if so, this may have made her even an easier target for Lionel.

The paragraph on the bottom of page 26 shows the hurt caused by Lionel and I can relate to every line of it. I won't type it all here, I know you can find it and it would make this even longer LOL. But yeah, when your innocence is taken, you even miss the mundane, the things everyone should take for granted and that is as bad as the assault, or worse, it lasts longer. Or like for me, you feel robbed of even the scary excitement of being with a man the first time, the time you want it to happen.That is a special moment, be it good or just so so lol, but when its your choice, its exciting and yet somewhat scary. But when you know by the time you are ready to engage in sex because its right for you, but you know everything, you even get robbed of that first time experience and I was mad about that so much.

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moxette wrote:
It was easy to identify with Sooky because of her abuse and the other adults who are too busy in their life to admit anything is going wrong. It is fascinating to see how the author constructs a child who is adorable but ignored and abused by the adults around her. The adults use Sooky for their own purpose and disregard her at the drop of a hat pin when they have their own problems to deal with and she is left alone.

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[thewanderingjew]

i think perhaps sooky was an "isolate". she had few close relationships and i didn't get the feeling that she was the most popular kid in town, either. often, to protect yourself, you remove yourself from any situation that can cause you pain. i think she does it mentally and physically from an early age. she speaks about losing music (which could be considered more of a solitary pleasure rather than one which needs a group), when she "lost" her father. yet she lost so much more than that.

twj

[Liz_25Joey]

I'm new at this so I will be short.

I found the book overall disturbing. Rhyll did do a good job on the visualizing. I honestly could see what was happening throughout.

I despise Lionel. He was disgusting, perverted, and basically a walking, talking nightmare. As for Sooky not telling someone, I feel as though she felt that she did not really have anyone to tell. Her mother did not want to hear it and was constantly belittling her to even care and her father was too caught up in using sarcasm to try pushing his wife away to even notice that something was wrong. He only cared about driving her mother away so that he could get the divorce he wanted. 

[debbook]

You are right Liz, she had no one to tell that would have cared. I think that makes the situation with Lionel even more disturbing is that the other adults in her life were emotionally neglecful. She didn't stand a chance

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Liz_25Joey wrote:

I'm new at this so I will be short.

I found the book overall disturbing. Rhyll did do a good job on the visualizing. I honestly could see what was happening throughout.

I despise Lionel. He was disgusting, perverted, and basically a walking, talking nightmare. As for Sooky not telling someone, I feel as though she felt that she did not really have anyone to tell. Her mother did not want to hear it and was constantly belittling her to even care and her father was too caught up in using sarcasm to try pushing his wife away to even notice that something was wrong. He only cared about driving her mother away so that he could get the divorce he wanted. 

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[vivico1]

Which is probably why she was in an emotional tug of war with her dad, and one also with Lionel. She kept going back to each of them for some kind of relationship, some showing of love even though both hurt her. Her father was like a yo-yo with her, one minute being a nice father with her, the next calling her terrible names and telling her to get out. He was a sick SOB too and his laughing stuff at his wife just made me want to slam dunk him too. Lionel, she wanted to be around him, there were kind moments or nice times when he wasn't that "other" Lionel, so there she was again. If either had been consistently the monster she feared, she probably would have stayed away from them. Scientist would call it a "variable ratio reward", meaning if you don't get the same reward, (or punishment for that matter) all the time or when you will know when it is, you will keep coming back looking for it hoping it will come. Predators know they have to develop a good report too with their victims, so they will continue to have access to them. Sooky would say she didn't want to go back over there when her mom tried to send her, but how long was it before she decided that once and for all because we read her wanting to go, or wanting to do something with him, missing him.

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debbook wrote:
You are right Liz, she had no one to tell that would have cared. I think that makes the situation with Lionel even more disturbing is that the other adults in her life were emotionally neglecful. She didn't stand a chance

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Liz_25Joey wrote:

I'm new at this so I will be short.

I found the book overall disturbing. Rhyll did do a good job on the visualizing. I honestly could see what was happening throughout.

I despise Lionel. He was disgusting, perverted, and basically a walking, talking nightmare. As for Sooky not telling someone, I feel as though she felt that she did not really have anyone to tell. Her mother did not want to hear it and was constantly belittling her to even care and her father was too caught up in using sarcasm to try pushing his wife away to even notice that something was wrong. He only cared about driving her mother away so that he could get the divorce he wanted.

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[ande]

It's clear we all wanted someone to be there for Sooky. She needed to be rescued. My heart broke for her when she found out that her dear grandmother died and the way she found out was another heartbreak.

But the flip side is that Sooky strikes me as a very strong little girl.  Even though she is a kid and isn't in control of her circumstances (to say the least) she is trying to sort out what's real in this hall-of-mirrors she has for a life.

The inner dialogue that Rhyll McMaster creates for Sooky is stunning. I find that I admire her as much as I pity her. Does anyone else feel that way?

Ande

[evansj]

I have to say that, even though I admittedly have not yet finished the book yet, I have found it to be very interesting.  I really enjoy the style of writing and the level of description in the language.  But I feel similarly to others in their comments that they feel a bit disconnected from Sooky.  I can't really explain why.  In some ways, I feel that the style of narrative (like the narrator looking back and describing her childhood), removes the reader from the action another step.  It seems like it is an adult using adult language and concepts to describe a child's inner (and outer) experiences and emotions.  Something about that makes the character a bit distant to me, since it is not the child we are hearing, but the adult version, and at a much later time. 

I also have to say that while I find Lionel disgusting, I find all of the characters thus far pretty pathetic.  I don't think there is one that I can look to with admiration or liking (perhaps in some ways Sooky and Rosie, I guess).  I think that the book does a good job of illustrating the dysfunction of families and human relationships, but I don't think it looks much at the redeeming qualities that any of the characters possess. Again, I guess this has something to do with the viewpoint of the story... 

[vivico1]

I think you are right about a lot of what you say. And unfortunately, I too think there are not many of us at this point who find any one of these characters very likeable or someone to connect too. Even those of us who have been through abuse are having a hard time connecting with Sooky on a "likeable" scale. There is a distance there. I keep wondering if this may have to do with the problem so many of us are having with the timeline here. It goes back and forth a lot and you can't tell what is happening and what has happened. Someitmes you dont even know if it did happen, or is in that world in her head she has created. So maybe we are having a hard time connecting to her because she isn't in the moment that long. We should be so connected to this little girl in this first part. It feels bad to say one is not but it seems to be a problem for several of us. hmmmm

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evansj wrote:

I have to say that, even though I admittedly have not yet finished the book yet, I have found it to be very interesting. I really enjoy the style of writing and the level of description in the language. But I feel similarly to others in their comments that they feel a bit disconnected from Sooky. I can't really explain why. In some ways, I feel that the style of narrative (like the narrator looking back and describing her childhood), removes the reader from the action another step. It seems like it is an adult using adult language and concepts to describe a child's inner (and outer) experiences and emotions. Something about that makes the character a bit distant to me, since it is not the child we are hearing, but the adult version, and at a much later time.

I also have to say that while I find Lionel disgusting, I find all of the characters thus far pretty pathetic. I don't think there is one that I can look to with admiration or liking (perhaps in some ways Sooky and Rosie, I guess). I think that the book does a good job of illustrating the dysfunction of families and human relationships, but I don't think it looks much at the redeeming qualities that any of the characters possess. Again, I guess this has something to do with the viewpoint of the story...

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[vivico1]

See, and I don't think of Sooky as a strong little girl. Quite the contrary, I see her as very fragile and I worry about her view of the world or emotions as an adult because of it.

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ande wrote:

It's clear we all wanted someone to be there for Sooky. She needed to be rescued. My heart broke for her when she found out that her dear grandmother died and the way she found out was another heartbreak.

But the flip side is that Sooky strikes me as a very strong little girl. Even though she is a kid and isn't in control of her circumstances (to say the least) she is trying to sort out what's real in this hall-of-mirrors she has for a life.

The inner dialogue that Rhyll McMaster creates for Sooky is stunning. I find that I admire her as much as I pity her. Does anyone else feel that way?

Ande

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[IBIS]

I think that McMaster created a very strong, very articulate and creative person in Sooky.

We meet her as a child, but unlike most children, she has amazingly deep insight, not only into her own fragile, developing sense of self, but also into the adults around her. .... on a child-like level, she intuits that she is very different from the other children around her; 

At some point, she says "I think I suffered people-burnout at an early age..." (p.46).  "No one ever said wise things to me. It might have helped. But they left me to work things out on my own..."

The pin worms, literal parasites that infested her young body...made me think that Lionel's dirty hands (both figurative and literal) infected her.  I cried on p. 38 at her astute, young girl's insights into Lionel's parasitical nature: 

(p. 38) "Lionel, how I loved you... I was wide open to attachment. I was a plate of medium in a laboratory ready for someoen to seed me with the bacteria of love. Anything might have stuck.. healthy, unhealthy, fungoid, parasitic. I couldn't discern between them... a dog, a parent, the man next door, it didn't matter....But Lionel was mistletoe growing up the side of my sapling soul, robbing me of energy.... Parasites, to prolong their own lives, take a long time to kill their hosts, insidious."

I'm still sobbing at the image.

IBIS 

[kiakar]

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IBIS wrote:

I think that McMaster created a very strong, very articulate and creative person in Sooky.

We meet her as a child, but unlike most children, she has amazingly deep insight, not only into her own fragile, developing sense of self, but also into the adults around her. .... on a child-like level, she intuits that she is very different from the other children around her; 

At some point, she says "I think I suffered people-burnout at an early age..." (p.46).  "No one ever said wise things to me. It might have helped. But they left me to work things out on my own..."

The pin worms, literal parasites that infested her young body...made me think that Lionel's dirty hands (both figurative and literal) infected her.  I cried on p. 38 at her astute, young girl's insights into Lionel's parasitical nature: 

(p. 38) "Lionel, how I loved you... I was wide open to attachment. I was a plate of medium in a laboratory ready for someoen to seed me with the bacteria of love. Anything might have stuck.. healthy, unhealthy, fungoid, parasitic. I couldn't discern between them... a dog, a parent, the man next door, it didn't matter....But Lionel was mistletoe growing up the side of my sapling soul, robbing me of energy.... Parasites, to prolong their own lives, take a long time to kill their hosts, insidious."

I'm still sobbing at the image.

IBIS 

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This book is so beautifully written! Such a talented author Rhyll is.

[vivico1]

A very poetic way of describing what she is going through huh. I thought about that too when I read that part.

Some of her articulation tho, is not from a child but from an adult looking back to when she was a child.

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IBIS wrote:

I think that McMaster created a very strong, very articulate and creative person in Sooky.

We meet her as a child, but unlike most children, she has amazingly deep insight, not only into her own fragile, developing sense of self, but also into the adults around her. .... on a child-like level, she intuits that she is very different from the other children around her;

At some point, she says "I think I suffered people-burnout at an early age..." (p.46). "No one ever said wise things to me. It might have helped. But they left me to work things out on my own..."

The pin worms, literal parasites that infested her young body...made me think that Lionel's dirty hands (both figurative and literal) infected her. I cried on p. 38 at her astute, young girl's insights into Lionel's parasitical nature:

(p. 38) "Lionel, how I loved you... I was wide open to attachment. I was a plate of medium in a laboratory ready for someoen to seed me with the bacteria of love. Anything might have stuck.. healthy, unhealthy, fungoid, parasitic. I couldn't discern between them... a dog, a parent, the man next door, it didn't matter....But Lionel was mistletoe growing up the side of my sapling soul, robbing me of energy.... Parasites, to prolong their own lives, take a long time to kill their hosts, insidious."

I'm still sobbing at the image.

IBIS

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[IBIS]

On one hand, I agree that the adults who surround Sooky are definitely unlikeable on many levels. 

On the other hand, as reader, I separated them from influencing my perceptions of Sooky as her own, fully realized person. DESPITE their malignant influences on her development,,, or maybe BECAUSE of them, she became the mature, famous artist she finally ends up being in London.

Along with the elements of the stultifying cultures of the 50s, and 60s (pre-feminism. a respectable middle-class lifestyle, etc.).. we meet her as a kind of blank canvas, and these people are the raw material... the building blocks... which shade and color her developing identity as a creative painter... she says in p. 137, like Scuffy the Tugboat, "I was meant for bigger things."

This book reminds me of  "Portrait of an Artist", where James Joyce tries to capture the complexities and setbacks of the developing artist. Rhyll McMaster writes in amazingly exquisite, delicious prose how this amazingly horrendous range of pathetic people, and societal mores, are core materiel for Sooky's development as a believable, fully realized, artist.

Not an easy undertaking.

IBIS 

[IBIS]

I agree that we meet Sooky as a child, but the POV is that of an adult Sooky.

It's a bit like how memory works, we don't remember everything chronologically... the big stuff usually overpowers the little stuff...  or one memory jogs a dormant one.

I'm not sure that I would actually like the adult Sooky; but her adult point-of-view as a child is amazing stuff.

IBIS 

[vivico1]

Maybe so, but at the same time, I think the question so many have about connecting with her, I think had we heard these things from a child's voice, we would have immediately. She is somewhat detached as an adult telling us, so we are too. And it is difficult not knowing what age she is when she is talking, skipping around in time in this part of the book. I don't have my book on me here but didn't I read the author did write poetry? She has a wonderful way with words, even if some cultural items I don't understand the meaning of, but something doesn't quite gel in part 1 and I think it may be a problem with time shifts. Especially if the voice does not change with the shifts. It is a difficult thing to do in writing and keep your continuity and feeling, no matter how beautifully a section or scene is written. I do love her use of words, but this other is a problem for me to get into and feel for Sooky.

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IBIS wrote:

I agree that we meet Sooky as a child, but the POV is that of an adult Sooky.

It's a bit like how memory works, we don't remember everything chronologically... the big stuff usually overpowers the little stuff... or one memory jogs a dormant one.

I'm not sure that I would actually like the adult Sooky; but her adult point-of-view as a child is amazing stuff.

IBIS

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[thewanderingjew]

i think sooky often retreats into a world that exists in her imagination in order to survive. perhaps that is why i had trouble trying to figure out where she was at times, in her head or in the moment, in the real world or in her imaginary haven. i also think that she escapes through her art which enables her to work through and express her repressed feelings and anger.

twj

[moxette]

Retreating into the world of just the imagination is a world that is created by someone in pain.  Sometimes it is the safest place to hide.  I don't think Sooky had any safe place to hid except her imaginary world, her haven away from the emotionally distand adults.

[ande]

I've been thinking a lot about some of your comments having to do with feeling distant or disconnected from Sooky. And that you find the time shifts disconcerting. Perhaps these are the author's device -- having you experience the remove that Sooky feels and the blurring of reality and timeframes.

Ande

[IBIS]

One characteristic that made me feel disconnected with Sooky is the author's deliberate technnique of describing the inchoate mental games that Sooky plays ... these mental games capture her young child's desperation to survive in this hostile environment... her very survival depends on these obsessive rituals... they anchor her in her shapeless sense of panic...

(p. 24) "I observed a set of obsessive rituals... when I turned the corner after climbing the first hill, I took off my shoes and ankle socks...I jumped the crack in the footpath so that I wouldn't die...I crossed my fingers behind my back to break any association ...."

(p 57) "...The compulsion to repeat, to make precise, to polish... repetition and replication. Something in my nature demands I perform in exactly the same way, again and again, compelling, self-designated task. I have to align everything."

(p. 60) "... I want to be pefect, and in particular I want to be unwrinkled... the story of Saggy Baggy the Elephand disturbs me. He is unacceptable. Not for me the redeeming moral at the end where he finds other elephants and comes to accepts his sags and bags. I have my father trim my fingernails short. Their shape disaatisfied me, and I bite them into submission. Straight lines and desication. ..."

This kind of obsessive behavior can be frightening, and off-putting... especially in such a young child.

IBIS

Message Edited by IBIS on 09-03-2008 12:55 PM