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For Ziki: Trial

Thanks, Ziki: the only way to find out if something works is certainly to simply try it out!


ziki wrote:
Hi Pmath and Choisya,
I will not have the time required to join in and contribute actively right now but if you carry onlike this it will serve as a 'guide' even for later attempts.
It's good to try different ways in which this forum could work.

Have fun,
ziki

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NORTH AND SOUTH at The Victorian Web

Here's useful link, but perhaps only useful if you've already read the novel: beware of spoilers!

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/gaskell/n_sov.html
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Chapters I through XIII

[ Edited ]
This thread is for our discussion of the first 13 chapters (out of 52) of Elizabeth Gaskell's North and South.

I suggest including chapter number(s) in the subject line, so that readers who haven't yet read through Chapter XIII can participate in discussions of earlier chapters right away. I also suggest including a direct quote in each message, to focus the discussion, and to avoid spoilers!

Message Edited by pmath on 01-03-200702:49 PM

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Cornwall v. Hampshire

[ Edited ]
Thanks, Choisya: during the British classics discussions at BNU, we certainly greatly benefited from your firsthand knowledge, which only someone from England could share with us! I looked at some maps: it will be very interesting to keep Cornwall in the back of our minds, too, as we read the novel.


Choisya wrote:
Just as Fanuzzir and Ilana had put up background information prior to the beginning of the Moby Dick and Cranford schedules (the Moby Dick date was then 'advanced' by B&N) I am posting some background information for North & South, as promised to Pmath, our Moderator. This time I thought I would tell readers about Helston in Cornwall (as BNU readers will remember I told them about the British countryside in Return of the Native, Jane Eyre and Lady Chatterley's Lover. Only this time I am not going to visit Helston (or Manchester)to take photographs for you, not least because it is midwinter (although Cornwall is actually the warmest part of the UK):smileyhappy::smileyhappy:

The Helston mentioned in N&S is in Hampshire and I have always been puzzled by this because there is no particular history of dissension in Hampshire as there is in Cornwall. I therefore think that EG had Cornwall in mind when she wrote about Helston.

Message Edited by pmath on 01-06-200707:54 AM

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Chapter I: Indian Shawls

I found this dialog between Henry and Margaret very interesting:

'Well, I suppose you are all in the depths of business--ladies' business, I mean. Very different to my business, which is the real true law business. Playing with shawls is very different work to drawing up settlements.

'Ah, I knew how you would be amused to find us all so occupied in admiring finery. But really Indian shawls are very perfect things of their kind.'

'I have no doubt they are. Their prices are very perfect, too. Nothing wanting.'
What does this say about him? (How expensive were Indian shawls?)
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Re: Chapter I: Indian Shawls



pmath wrote:
I found this dialog between Henry and Margaret very interesting:

'Well, I suppose you are all in the depths of business--ladies' business, I mean. Very different to my business, which is the real true law business. Playing with shawls is very different work to drawing up settlements.

'Ah, I knew how you would be amused to find us all so occupied in admiring finery. But really Indian shawls are very perfect things of their kind.'

'I have no doubt they are. Their prices are very perfect, too. Nothing wanting.'
What does this say about him? (How expensive were Indian shawls?)




Probably that Henry was a typical man of his times - condescending to women; thinking that the most important thing to occupy their minds is fashion.

I believe India shawls were expensive. According to articles on www.janeausten.co.uk - these imported shawls could be ornate with threads of gold or silver, were made of silk or cashmere, were very luxurious and costly.
Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Re: Chapter I: Indian Shawls



LizzieAnn wrote:


pmath wrote:
I found this dialog between Henry and Margaret very interesting:

'Well, I suppose you are all in the depths of business--ladies' business, I mean. Very different to my business, which is the real true law business. Playing with shawls is very different work to drawing up settlements.

'Ah, I knew how you would be amused to find us all so occupied in admiring finery. But really Indian shawls are very perfect things of their kind.'

'I have no doubt they are. Their prices are very perfect, too. Nothing wanting.'
What does this say about him? (How expensive were Indian shawls?)




Probably that Henry was a typical man of his times - condescending to women; thinking that the most important thing to occupy their minds is fashion.

I believe India shawls were expensive. According to articles on www.janeausten.co.uk - these imported shawls could be ornate with threads of gold or silver, were made of silk or cashmere, were very luxurious and costly.





Which articles, Liz? I went to the site and couldn't find anything specific?

Melissa/Redcatlady
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Re: Chapter I: Indian Shawls

They're mentioned in these two articles - here are the links:

http://www.janeausten.co.uk/magazine/page.ihtml?pid=166&step=4
Look at the 8th paragraph down - closer to the end of the article

http://www.janeausten.co.uk/magazine/page.ihtml?pid=256&step=4




Redcatlady wrote:

Which articles, Liz? I went to the site and couldn't find anything specific?

Melissa/Redcatlady


Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Re: Chapter I: Kashmir/Cashmere Shawls

[ Edited ]
It is likely that these shawl references in N&S were about Kashmir/Cashmere shawls which have been popular in the UK since the East India Company started trading in India in the early 19th centuiry. I have a pashmina which belonged to my maternal grandmother which was brought back from India, post-Independence, by an uncle who was in the Diplomatic service there. I often sit at my computer with it around my shoulders. They are still very popular and one of the best places to buy them in the UK is Libertys in Regent Street, London although there are now many fine ones sold in the Indian districts. They have an interesting history.

http://www.victoriana.com/library/paisley/shawl.html

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-04-200712:28 PM

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Re: Chapter I: Indian Shawls

Thanks, Liz. I really appreciate it.

Melissa/Redcatlady



LizzieAnn wrote:
They're mentioned in these two articles - here are the links:

http://www.janeausten.co.uk/magazine/page.ihtml?pid=166&step=4
Look at the 8th paragraph down - closer to the end of the article

http://www.janeausten.co.uk/magazine/page.ihtml?pid=256&step=4




Redcatlady wrote:

Which articles, Liz? I went to the site and couldn't find anything specific?

Melissa/Redcatlady





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Re: Chapter I: Kashmir/Cashmere Shawls

Interesting article --- but you have to use Word to print it up, though.

Melissa/Redcatlady




Choisya wrote:
It is likely that these shawl references in N&S were about Kashmir/Cashmere shawls which have been popular in the UK since the East India Company started trading in India in the early 19th centuiry. I have a pashmina which belonged to my maternal grandmother which was brought back from India, post-Independence, by an uncle who was in the Diplomatic service there. I often sit at my computer with it around my shoulders. They are still very popular and one of the best places to buy them in the UK is Libertys in Regent Street, London although there are now many fine ones sold in the Indian districts. They have an interesting history.

http://www.victoriana.com/library/paisley/shawl.html

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-04-200712:28 PM




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Re: Chapter I: Kashmir/Cashmere Shawls

Great article, Choisya: thanks! No wonder the shawls were expensive: below is a quote.

Before 1850 one man would weave a shawl on a hand loom. ... two to three years it would take to weave a shawl.

Choisya wrote:
It is likely that these shawl references in N&S were about Kashmir/Cashmere shawls which have been popular in the UK since the East India Company started trading in India in the early 19th centuiry. ... They have an interesting history.

http://www.victoriana.com/library/paisley/shawl.html

pmath wrote:
(How expensive were Indian shawls?)

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North & South Chapters 5-8

Margaret tells her mother of her father’s decision and his plans to move North to Milton (an factory town) almost immediately after Mr. Hale cowardly leaves his home for the day. Mrs. Hale is as upset as Margaret about Mr. Hale’s having made this decision, and so also indignant that he’s told Margaret first. It’s as if Margaret & Mrs. Hale have switched roles, and this makes Mrs. Hale jealous as well. The news also seems to have made Mrs. Hale ill, so that the preparations for the move fall into Margaret’s hands.

Margaret contemplates the difference a few months has made in her life - how much it has changed & how much it will continue to change. So many decisions that shouldn’t be made by her were being left for her to make regarding this move.

Milton is so different from the southern countryside of Helstone: factories, smoke, busy thoroughfares, crowds of people, and a sense of grayness. Here we meet Mr. Thornton, an important manufacturer, who will be having sessions with Mr. Hale to expand his education. Mr. Hale takes to Mr. Thornton right away, while Margaret does not. She tends to look down on him, considering him a “tradesperson” and therefore beneath her. When telling her mother about Thornton: “About thirty - …- not quite a gentleman, but that was hardly to be expected.” … “With such an expression of resolution and power, no face, however plain in feature, could be either vulgar or common…Altogether a man who seems made for his niche, manma; sagacious, and strong, as becomes a great tradesman.” [p. 65]

Margaret doesn’t realize that it is because of Mr. Thornton that the landlord of their new house redoes the inside of their house. “There was no need to tell them (the Hales), that what he did not care to do for a Reverend Mr. Hale, unknown in Milton, he was only too glad to do at the one short sharp remonstrance of Mr. Thornton, the wealthy manufacturer.” [p. 66] It is also through Mr. Thornton, that Mr. Hale acquires some of his new pupils. While Mr. Thornton doesn't fit Margaret's idea of a "gentleman." She doesn't realize that in her new world, it's Mr. Thornton's status that is higher.

Margaret seems to have difficulty in understanding the change in their station in life. While she is looking down at all around her, the town is looking her family over as well. Mr. Hale is just another working man, and they are being judged by the money they spend. The guidelines used to judge and sort people are different here. She doesn’t seem to realize yet that she’s occupying not only a different stratosphere but also a different station in life. Bessy Higgins, an ailing young woman, and her father Nicholas, a factory worker, meet Margaret as the 8th chapter ends.
Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Re: Chapter I: Kashmir/Cashmere Shawls



Redcatlady wrote:
Interesting article --- but you have to use Word to print it up, though.

Melissa/Redcatlady

You can go to File/Print in your browser Melissa - well at least I can:smileyhappy:
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Chapter IV: Woolwork

This reminded me of Henry's earlier remark about shawls:

Margaret was preparing her mother's worsted work, and
rather shrinking from the thought of the long evening, and
wishing bed-time were come that she might go over the events of
the day again.

'Margaret!' said Mr. Hale, at last, in a sort of sudden desperate
way, that made her start. 'Is that tapestry thing of immediate
consequence? I mean, can you leave it and come into my study? I
want to speak to you about something very serious to us all.'
Maybe his wife was making Mr. Hale a pair of slippers! I found this at the same website Choisya directed us to earlier for more information about Kashmir shawls:

http://www.victoriana.com/Mens-Clothing/mens-shoes.html
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Re: Chapter I: Kashmir/Cashmere Shawls

I love the pictures in that article. And to think you can now buy such shawls for $29.99!



pmath wrote:
Great article, Choisya: thanks! No wonder the shawls were expensive: below is a quote.

Before 1850 one man would weave a shawl on a hand loom. ... two to three years it would take to weave a shawl.

Choisya wrote:
It is likely that these shawl references in N&S were about Kashmir/Cashmere shawls which have been popular in the UK since the East India Company started trading in India in the early 19th centuiry. ... They have an interesting history.

http://www.victoriana.com/library/paisley/shawl.html

pmath wrote:
(How expensive were Indian shawls?)




"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Chapter I: Kashmir Shawls and Manchester Calicoes

BTW, there's a link at the end to "A Chapter on Shawls," an article published in Harper's Magazine, December 1850, in which I found this:

There is something very kindling to the imagination in the thought of these swarthy weavers, attired perhaps in our Manchester calicoes, laboring patiently for weeks and months to produce a fabric worthy of rank and royalty, ...
http://www.victoriana.com/Cashmere/Cashmere-shawls.html


pmath wrote:
Great article, Choisya: thanks! No wonder the shawls were expensive: below is a quote.

Before 1850 one man would weave a shawl on a hand loom. ... two to three years it would take to weave a shawl.

Choisya wrote:
It is likely that these shawl references in N&S were about Kashmir/Cashmere shawls which have been popular in the UK since the East India Company started trading in India in the early 19th centuiry. ... They have an interesting history.

http://www.victoriana.com/library/paisley/shawl.html

pmath wrote:
(How expensive were Indian shawls?)


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Chapter IV: Mr. Hale's Doubts, revisited

I wonder why she didn't just make up another name for her hamlet. So do you think Mr. Hale became a Unitarian, like EG?


Choisya wrote:
As I posted in my Helston (or Helstone) piece, it is the Hampshire Helstone which EG writes about but IMO she had Helston (or Helstone) Cornwall in mind because of its history of dissension.

pmath wrote:
Thanks for the very informative links. I found this, from the one below, particularly interesting:

Elizabeth Gaskell is considered by critics today to be at the top of the second tier of Victorian British writers, highly regarded but not "classic," below George Eliot and Charles Dickens. Why is this? Her Unitarianism may have inadvertently played a part in consigning her to the second tier. Because Gaskell believed in inherent goodness, there are really no bad characters or villains in her book.

Choisya wrote:
Here is a very interesting essay by an American Unitarian about EG and her times, which reveals that she was a distant cousin of Charles Darwin!

http://www.uufhc.net/s020707.html


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Re: Chapter IV: Mr. Hale's Doubts, revisited (Possible Spoiler)

As when the Hales went to 'Darkshire' both Mr Hale and Margaret undertook a lot of social work (as EG and her husband did in Manchester) and the Unitarians were well known for this aspect of their work, I think she was possibly inferring this. However, the Unitarians were one of the more controversial sects so referring to them directly may not have helped sales of the book! They believed that 'social evils were humanly created, not God inflicted...and were closely identified with campaigns for social and political reform'. This was not the view held by the majority of Victorians.




pmath wrote:
I wonder why she didn't just make up another name for her hamlet. So do you think Mr. Hale became a Unitarian, like EG?


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Re: NORTH AND SOUTH and east and west-winds are blowing in all directions



Everyman wrote:
No taunting; just setting the record straight.




Hey E-man, keep an eye on those chicks!

You seniors are breaking a new ground here, awsome, especialy as it is being done with the seriousness of kids in a sand box...it's cute to watch even if you scare Ilana!
The end's good, all's good.

ziki
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