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Choisya
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Re: Chapters XXII through XV: "she shivered and trembled" : Submission & Class

[ Edited ]
Yes, I was trying to explain in my former post why I think that Gaskell had written about the 'love' interest in this way. POSSIBLE SPOILER:- Also at this stage of the book Thornton is beneath her in class terms and Victorian heroines cannot bridge the class divide without some sort of a change taking place - as happened, for instance, in Jane Eyre. Much as Gaskell probably wanted to breach this convention, she had to sell her books too:smileyhappy:


Danielle wrote:
I agree with the second point, the first one is maybe more complex than just the idea that he is beneath him. She also just doesn't want to submit herself to men's will. She wants to remain the master of her life and doesn't want her feelings to guide her life. But she might not know how to make him understand "the problem". He could have just given up and he would have been "lost" for her, although she had deep feelings for him! (by the way, I think think it is what Choisya said when she mentioned Mary W. in another post...)

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-15-200702:26 PM

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Chapters XXII through XXV: Class in N&S and Jane Austen's PRIDE AND PREJUDICE

[ Edited ]
Do we know if EG read P&P? The archetypical roles are reversed here, just as Danielle pointed out earlier: in some ways, Margaret's is parallel to Mr. Darcy's and John's to Elizabeth's.


Choisya wrote:
Yes, I was trying to explain in my former post why I think that Gaskell had written about the 'love' interest in this way. ... Thornton is beneath her in class terms and Victorian heroines cannot bridge the class divide without some sort of a change taking place ... .

Danielle wrote:
I agree with the second point, the first one is maybe more complex than just the idea that he is beneath him. She also just doesn't want to submit herself to men's will. She wants to remain the master of her life and doesn't want her feelings to guide her life. But she might not know how to make him understand "the problem". He could have just given up and he would have been "lost" for her, although she had deep feelings for him! (by the way, I think think it is what Choisya said when she mentioned Mary W. in another post...)

Message Edited by pmath on 01-17-200702:38 PM

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chadadanielleKR
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Re: Intermission, Chapters I through XXV: Climax - possible spoiler-


pmath wrote:
Do you think the climax was at some point during the strike (Chapter XXII), John's proposal (Chapter XXIV), or some other event?




IMHO, the strike is a turning point in John's life because he discovers how morally strong a person she is, but this event might no be as important in Margaret's life. As for her, there is a number of small events which concur to "build" her personality and to make her the person she will become later on: John's proposal is just one of these events.

By the way, this is what makes the book fascinating; because there is always something new coming about in her live (typical of a Bildungs Roman, I guess)
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Choisya
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Re: Chapters XXII through XV: Class in N&S and Jane Austen's PRIDE AND PREJUDICE

I expect she had read both Austen and Bronte (whose biography she wrote) but I find Margaret and Thornton to be more Jane and Rochester because the Thornton is another Northerner and nowhere near as genteel as D'Arcy. Industry does not darken the door of P&P whereas it is ever present in N&S.



pmath wrote:
Do we know if EG read P&P? The archetypical roles are reversed here, just as Danielle pointed out earlier: in some ways, Margaret's is parallel to Mr. Darcy's and John's to Elizabeth's.


Choisya wrote:
Yes, I was trying to explain in my former post why I think that Gaskell had written about the 'love' interest in this way. ... Thornton is beneath her in class terms and Victorian heroines cannot bridge the class divide without some sort of a change taking place ... .

Danielle wrote:
I agree with the second point, the first one is maybe more complex than just the idea that he is beneath him. She also just doesn't want to submit herself to men's will. She wants to remain the master of her life and doesn't want her feelings to guide her life. But she might not know how to make him understand "the problem". He could have just given up and he would have been "lost" for her, although she had deep feelings for him! (by the way, I think think it is what Choisya said when she mentioned Mary W. in another post...)




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Chapters XXII through XXV: More on Class

[ Edited ]
It's funny, but perhaps natural, that we each see similarities between N&S and another one of our favorite novels! Thanks for bringing up the issue of class, Choisya: I'll have to read a biography of EG.


Choisya wrote:
I expect she had read both Austen and Bronte (whose biography she wrote) but I find Margaret and Thornton to be more Jane and Rochester because the Thornton is another Northerner and nowhere near as genteel as D'Arcy. Industry does not darken the door of P&P whereas it is ever present in N&S.

pmath wrote:
Do we know if EG read P&P? The archetypical roles are reversed here, just as Danielle pointed out earlier: in some ways, Margaret's is parallel to Mr. Darcy's and John's to Elizabeth's.

Choisya wrote:
Yes, I was trying to explain in my former post why I think that Gaskell had written about the 'love' interest in this way. ... Thornton is beneath her in class terms and Victorian heroines cannot bridge the class divide without some sort of a change taking place ... .

Danielle wrote:
I agree with the second point, the first one is maybe more complex than just the idea that he is beneath him. She also just doesn't want to submit herself to men's will. She wants to remain the master of her life and doesn't want her feelings to guide her life. But she might not know how to make him understand "the problem". He could have just given up and he would have been "lost" for her, although she had deep feelings for him! (by the way, I think think it is what Choisya said when she mentioned Mary W. in another post...)



Message Edited by pmath on 01-17-200702:39 PM

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Chapters I through XXV: POV

Good point, Danielle: the climax depends on the point of view, which is why there are a few climaxes, and not just one!


chadadanielleKR wrote:
IMHO, the strike is a turning point in John's life because he discovers how morally strong a person she is, but this event might no be as important in Margaret's life. As for her, there is a number of small events which concur to "build" her personality and to make her the person she will become later on: John's proposal is just one of these events.

By the way, this is what makes the book fascinating; because there is always something new coming about in her live (typical of a Bildungs Roman, I guess)

pmath wrote:
Do you think the climax was at some point during the strike (Chapter XXII), John's proposal (Chapter XXIV), or some other event?

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Chapters VI and XXII through XXV: Poacher

[ Edited ]
Well, EG is certainly very clever in the way she's conveying this, then! Do you think there's any connection to the passage we discussed earlier, in Chapter VI? Does Margaret view John as a type of poacher?


pmath wrote (here):
This is another very interesting passage:

A stealthy, creeping, cranching sound among the crisp fallen leaves of the forest, beyond the garden, seemed almost close at hand. Margaret knew it was some poacher. Sitting up in her bed-room this past autumn, with the light of her candle extinguished, and purely revelling in the solemn beauty of the heavens and the earth, she had many a time seen the light noiseless leap of the poachers over the garden-fence, their quick tramp across the dewy moonlit lawn, their disappearance in the black still shadow beyond. The wild adventurous freedom of their life had taken her fancy; she felt inclined to wish them success; she had no fear of them. But to-night she was afraid, she knew not why. [Chapter VI]


Choisya wrote:
It sounds like the lust that Victorian ladies are not supposed to have to me:smileyhappy:

pmath wrote:
Was Margaret drawn to John in some way? What do you think of Fanny's opinion?

'I know she cares for my brother; any one can see that; ...' [Chapter XXII]
Is this fear, or something else?

'...--oh, Miss Hale!' continued [John], lowering his voice to such a tender intensity of passion that she shivered and trembled before him, ... [Chapter XXIV]

LizzieAnn wrote:
I ... think she's frightened of the depth of John's emotion - his passion, his continuing love.

pmath wrote:
What exactly is going on here?!

...the clear conviction dawned upon her, shined bright upon her, that he did love her; that he had loved her; that he would love her. And she shrank and shuddered as under the fascination of some great power, repugnant to her whole previous life. She crept away, and hid from his idea. But it was of no use. To parody a line out of Fairfax's Tasso--

'His strong idea wandered through her thought.'

She disliked him the more for having mastered her inner will.
[Chapter XXV]




Message Edited by pmath on 01-17-200702:34 PM

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Re: the art of making tea (Off topic)



Choisya wrote:
I've never heard of this ziki - I wonder if it is a sales gimmick?




ziki wrote:
Last week I went to a shop selling cooking utensils&kitchen equipment and there they had a thermometer for measuring the 'tea water temperature'. Each sort of tea needs different temperature of water. I mean you could use any thermometer but on this one different teas were indicated on the scale. Admiting my ignorance- so far I just boiled the water and poured that over the tea...deed done. :-)

ziki








..could be and at the same time I see that so much in cooking is about chemistry and possibly a somewhat colder water say 95°C compared to 100°C can make some difference...but OTH can you really sense that? The water gets colder so quickly...dunno. Perhaps I should go back and ask. I didn't consult the staff about it, I just saw it as another gadget I didn't need.

ziki :-)
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Re: why Gaskell?

Great answer Danielle, thanks.

ziki
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Re: Experience



pmath wrote:
She was also married at the time she wrote her novels, and I think her experience shows in the detailed descriptions of women and men in love.



And that I suppose more in a more realistic way than a romance would do?

ziki
(not yet gaskellized)
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Re: over1000



Choisya wrote:
It just shows what a sad old lady I am!" I do so hate these 'scores:smileysad::smileysad:




No way, at this very moment you are four times number 1= 1111 posts.

See, if you interact and post even some chat posts the number grows quickly. The other way is not to post or not to read so much...not fun either.

Not to worry.
ziki
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EG on John Thornton

[ Edited ]
Yes, and I also think her descriptions of John's feelings are more daring.


ziki wrote:
And that I suppose more in a more realistic way than a romance would do?

pmath wrote:
She was also married at the time she wrote her novels, and I think her experience shows in the detailed descriptions of women and men in love.

chadadanielleKR wrote:
I have only read 2 books from E. Gaskell. But I have enjoyed reading her tremendously because she is touch with the reality of her time, some other writers like J. Austen or C. Bronte don't seem to me to have such concerns.

ziki wrote:
Why is Gaskell important? What is her main strength as a writer? What would be missing in the literature if she didn't occupy her spot in history?

Message Edited by pmath on 01-28-200712:45 PM

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Re: Chapters VI and XXII through XV: Poacher

Interesting POV. She possibly does - a poacher into her life. He has definitely disturbed & ruffled her life and her own little world. Considering her confusing emotions surrounding John, I think there is a fear there. A fear of things beyond her control affecting her. She doesn't recognize it as fear; she instead becomes offended. I think most of all it's his effect on her & hers that has her in turmoil - to the extent that she's rationalizing all her actions in connection to him.




pmath wrote:
Well, EG is certainly very clever in the way she's conveying this, then! Do you think there's any connection to the passage we discussed earlier, in Chapter VI? Does Margaret view John as a type of poacher?


pmath wrote (here):
This is another very interesting passage:

A stealthy, creeping, cranching sound among the crisp fallen leaves of the forest, beyond the garden, seemed almost close at hand. Margaret knew it was some poacher. Sitting up in her bed-room this past autumn, with the light of her candle extinguished, and purely revelling in the solemn beauty of the heavens and the earth, she had many a time seen the light noiseless leap of the poachers over the garden-fence, their quick tramp across the dewy moonlit lawn, their disappearance in the black still shadow beyond. The wild adventurous freedom of their life had taken her fancy; she felt inclined to wish them success; she had no fear of them. But to-night she was afraid, she knew not why. [Chapter VI]
Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Choisya
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Re: Chapters I through XXV: The Strike - a climax

[ Edited ]
Certainly Margaret's involvement in the strike was one of the climactic points so far as Victorian readers were concerned. See this very interesting piece on the difficulties involved in writing about such things in Victorian England, even for Mrs Gaskell, a progressive:-

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/gaskell/n_s4.html




pmath wrote:
Good point, Danielle: the climax depends on the point of view, which is why there are a few climaxes, and not just one!


chadadanielleKR wrote:
IMHO, the strike is a turning point in John's life because he discovers how morally strong a person she is, but this event might no be as important in Margaret's life. As for her, there is a number of small events which concur to "build" her personality and to make her the person she will become later on: John's proposal is just one of these events.

By the way, this is what makes the book fascinating; because there is always something new coming about in her live (typical of a Bildungs Roman, I guess)

pmath wrote:
Do you think the climax was at some point during the strike (Chapter XXII), John's proposal (Chapter XXIV), or some other event?



Message Edited by Choisya on 01-16-200701:56 PM

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Chapters I through XXV: EG's Silence

Thanks, Choisya, for finding this: it seems EG had to leave much unsaid, which makes the novel very interesting indeed!


Choisya wrote:
Certainly Margaret's involvement in the strike was one of the climactic points so far as Victorian readers were concerned. See this very interesting piece on the difficulties involved in writing about such things in Victorian England, even for Mrs Gaskell, a progressive:-

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/gaskell/n_s4.html

pmath wrote:
Good point, Danielle: the climax depends on the point of view, which is why there are a few climaxes, and not just one!


chadadanielleKR wrote:
IMHO, the strike is a turning point in John's life because he discovers how morally strong a person she is, but this event might no be as important in Margaret's life. As for her, there is a number of small events which concur to "build" her personality and to make her the person she will become later on: John's proposal is just one of these events.

By the way, this is what makes the book fascinating; because there is always something new coming about in her live (typical of a Bildungs Roman, I guess)

pmath wrote:
Do you think the climax was at some point during the strike (Chapter XXII), John's proposal (Chapter XXIV), or some other event?



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chadadanielleKR
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Re: Chapters VI and XXII through XV: Poacher

I agree, it is an excellent idea!!



LizzieAnn wrote:
Interesting POV. She possibly does - a poacher into her life. He has definitely disturbed & ruffled her life and her own little world. Considering her confusing emotions surrounding John, I think there is a fear there. A fear of things beyond her control affecting her. She doesn't recognize it as fear; she instead becomes offended. I think most of all it's his effect on her & hers that has her in turmoil - to the extent that she's rationalizing all her actions in connection to him.




pmath wrote:
Well, EG is certainly very clever in the way she's conveying this, then! Do you think there's any connection to the passage we discussed earlier, in Chapter VI? Does Margaret view John as a type of poacher?


pmath wrote (here):
This is another very interesting passage:

A stealthy, creeping, cranching sound among the crisp fallen leaves of the forest, beyond the garden, seemed almost close at hand. Margaret knew it was some poacher. Sitting up in her bed-room this past autumn, with the light of her candle extinguished, and purely revelling in the solemn beauty of the heavens and the earth, she had many a time seen the light noiseless leap of the poachers over the garden-fence, their quick tramp across the dewy moonlit lawn, their disappearance in the black still shadow beyond. The wild adventurous freedom of their life had taken her fancy; she felt inclined to wish them success; she had no fear of them. But to-night she was afraid, she knew not why. [Chapter VI]



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Chapters VI and XXII through XXV: Conceit

[ Edited ]
Thanks, Liz and Danielle, although perhaps, like the "dwarfed skulls" in Moby Dick, or, The Whale (see my message linked here), it's a conceit!

If not, what would make Margaret anticipate such "poaching" at that point? Henry's proposal? Do you think this foreshadowing was intentional on EG's part?


chadadanielleKR wrote:
I agree, it is an excellent idea!!

LizzieAnn wrote:
Interesting POV. She possibly does - a poacher into her life. He has definitely disturbed & ruffled her life and her own little world. Considering her confusing emotions surrounding John, I think there is a fear there. A fear of things beyond her control affecting her. She doesn't recognize it as fear; she instead becomes offended. I think most of all it's his effect on her & hers that has her in turmoil - to the extent that she's rationalizing all her actions in connection to him.

pmath wrote:
Well, EG is certainly very clever in the way she's conveying this, then! Do you think there's any connection to the passage we discussed earlier, in Chapter VI? Does Margaret view John as a type of poacher?

pmath wrote (here):
This is another very interesting passage:

A stealthy, creeping, cranching sound among the crisp fallen leaves of the forest, beyond the garden, seemed almost close at hand. Margaret knew it was some poacher. Sitting up in her bed-room this past autumn, with the light of her candle extinguished, and purely revelling in the solemn beauty of the heavens and the earth, she had many a time seen the light noiseless leap of the poachers over the garden-fence, their quick tramp across the dewy moonlit lawn, their disappearance in the black still shadow beyond. The wild adventurous freedom of their life had taken her fancy; she felt inclined to wish them success; she had no fear of them. But to-night she was afraid, she knew not why. [Chapter VI]


Choisya wrote:
It sounds like the lust that Victorian ladies are not supposed to have to me:smileyhappy:

pmath wrote:
Was Margaret drawn to John in some way? What do you think of Fanny's opinion?
'I know she cares for my brother; any one can see that; ...' [Chapter XXII]
Is this fear, or something else?
'...--oh, Miss Hale!' continued [John], lowering his voice to such a tender intensity of passion that she shivered and trembled before him, ... [Chapter XXIV]

LizzieAnn wrote:
I ... think she's frightened of the depth of John's emotion - his passion, his continuing love.

pmath wrote:
What exactly is going on here?!

...the clear conviction dawned upon her, shined bright upon her, that he did love her; that he had loved her; that he would love her. And she shrank and shuddered as under the fascination of some great power, repugnant to her whole previous life. She crept away, and hid from his idea. But it was of no use. To parody a line out of Fairfax's Tasso--

'His strong idea wandered through her thought.'

She disliked him the more for having mastered her inner will.
[Chapter XXV]







Message Edited by pmath on 01-17-200702:39 PM

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Chapter XXVI (Vol. II, Ch. I): "a sturdy fish-wife"

So much for Margaret being a "lady!"

When Mr. Thornton had left the house that morning he was almost blinded by his baffled passion. He was as dizzy as if Margaret, instead of looking, and speaking, and moving like a tender graceful woman, had been a sturdy fish-wife, and given him a sound blow with her fists. ... It would have been a relief to him, if he could have sat down and cried on a door-step by a little child, who was raging and storming, through his passionate tears, at some injury he had received.
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Re: Chapters VI and XXII through XXV: Conceit

I think it's Henry's proposal & the prospect of leaving Helstone in Margaret's sphere as well as EG's foreshadowing of John Thornton & Milton.



pmath wrote:
Thanks, Liz and Danielle, although perhaps, like the "dwarfed skulls" in Moby Dick, or, The Whale (see my message linked here), it's a conceit!

If not, what would make Margaret anticipate such "poaching" at that point? Henry's proposal? Do you think this foreshadowing was intentional on EG's part?
Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Ch. XXXV & Ch. XXXVII (Vol. II, Ch. X & Ch. XII): Choisya's Very Astute Observation

We now see the effects of a change in Margaret's status, which Choisya noted was necessary (here)! From Chapter XXXV (Vol. II, Ch. X):
Mr. Thornton, above all people, on whom she had looked down from her imaginary heights till now! She suddenly found herself at his feet, and was strangely distressed at her fall. She shrank from following out the premises to their conclusion, and so acknowledging to herself how much she valued his respect and good opinion.
and Chapter XXXVII (Vol. II, Ch. XII):

But when should she see him? Her heart leaped up in apprehension at every ring of the door-bell; and yet when it fell down to calmness, she felt strangely saddened and sick at heart at each disappointment.
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