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IlanaSimons
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Re: For Choisya, Liz, Danielle, and Ilana: A big THANK YOU!



pmath wrote:
As we enter the last week of our discussion of Elizabeth Gaskell's North and South, I'd like to thank all of you,

  • Choisya, for your support, and for sharing your extensive knowledge;

  • Liz, for your detailed analyses, and for your thoughtful commentary;

  • Danielle, for your insights, and for your encouragement; and

  • Ilana, for your help, and for watching over us so kindly.
I've learned a lot about this wonderful novel this month!

Message Edited by pmath on 01-23-200708:00 PM






Pmath and all the members: You've been wonderful. Congratulations on a great run
Ilana



Ilana
Check out my book, here and visit my website, here.


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Re: For Choisya, Liz, Danielle, and Ilana: A big THANK YOU!

I second/third all that:smileyhappy: And a big thankyou to you too pmath for taking the task on, for your insightful posts and for your very useful links. This and Moby Dick have, I think, been the most successful boards since the start of the new B&N. Ilana and Fanuzzir have both been great moderators and guides too.




IlanaSimons wrote:


pmath wrote:
As we enter the last week of our discussion of Elizabeth Gaskell's North and South, I'd like to thank all of you,

  • Choisya, for your support, and for sharing your extensive knowledge;

  • Liz, for your detailed analyses, and for your thoughtful commentary;

  • Danielle, for your insights, and for your encouragement; and

  • Ilana, for your help, and for watching over us so kindly.
I've learned a lot about this wonderful novel this month!

Message Edited by pmath on 01-23-200708:00 PM






Pmath and all the members: You've been wonderful. Congratulations on a great run
Ilana


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Chapter LII: Jenny Uglow's Biography

Yes, Choisya, the more I learn about EG, the more I'm impressed by what she was able to accomplish! I plan to read Jenny Uglow's biography, Elizabeth Gaskell: A Habit of Stories, next: have you read it?

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/BookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?EAN=9780374147518

Does anyone know if the serial ending is available somewhere on the Web for us to read? I actually like the novel ending very much: it leaves room for the imagination! (BTW, Liz, were you referring to your copy of the Penguin Classics edition?)


Choisya wrote:
She also wrote a different ending for the serial to that of the published work. Apparently Dickens could cope with weekly instalments easily but many of his contributors to Household Words found it difficult. I would imagine that women like Gaskell, with children and other domestic duties, found it much more difficult than any man!

LizzieAnn wrote:
... in my edition (B&N Classics) of North & South, within the notes it shows that EG wasn't quite sure of the ending herself:

In the letter complaining of Dickens's restrictions on teh 'quantity' she wrote for serialization, Gaskell indicates that this episode was curtailed though she adds, 'I am not sure if, when the barrier gives way between 2 such characters as Mr. Thornton and Margaret it would not all go smash in a moment - and I don't feel quite certain that I dislike the end as it now stands" (Letters, p. 329). [page 449]


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Penguin Classics

I apologize - you're right, it is the Penguin Classics edition. Shame on me; well just goes to prove I'm not infallible. I have so many B&N Classics editions of books, that I just typed that in automatically.

By the way, the letter quoted in the book comes from The Letters of Mrs Gaskell, ed J.A.V. Chapple & Arthur Pollard, Manchester University Press, 1966. This information is given on the Bibliographical Note page, page vii, of the Penguin Classics :smileyhappy: edition.
Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Re: Chapter LII: More on Gaskell & Dickens!

[ Edited ]
No I haven't read it pmath and probably should. I have read her biog of Charlotte Bronte though and that is very good. I can't find anything with the two different endings despite an extensive trawl of the net. I will take a look around our local bookshop when I next go out (it has been snowing here) - a posh edition might have the two endings and I could crib them:smileyhappy: BTW I found another bit about Dickens and Gaskell which is rather revealing, given that Dickens' marriage broke down (my italics):-

'The cordial business relationship between Gaskell and Dickens deteriorated over disagreements about North and South. Gaskell worried that Dickens's industrial novel Hard Times, which would be published first, might steal her thunder by treating the same themes she had. "I am not going to strike," Dickens wrote, "so don't be afraid of me." Dickens wished to shorten the part in which the heroine's father, an Anglican minister, doubts the trinity and other doctrines and decides to leave the church. He thought it "a difficult and dangerous subject." Gaskell refused and afterwards resisted having the work shortened, retitled, or shaped for serialization. Dickens vented his frustration to a friend, "If I were Mr. Gaskell, O heaven how I should beat her!" The relationship, although somewhat cooled, nevertheless survived these hard negotiations.'

BTW I thought that video of the lecture by Shelston implied that she did alter the bits about Dissension for the serialisation?

This is also a revealing extract about Gaskell's domestic v. writing life:-(my italics):-

'As Unitarians they did not believe that wives should be submissive to their husbands. Elizabeth certainly was not. William encouraged his wife to develop her own talents and to assert herself in promoting them. She did not find the path to her vocation an easy one. "I am sometimes coward enough to wish that we were back in the darkness where obedience was the only seen duty of women," she confessed to friend Eliza "Tottie" Fox, then added, "Only even then I don't believe William would ever have commanded me."'






pmath wrote:
Yes, Choisya, the more I learn about EG, the more I'm impressed by what she was able to accomplish! I plan to read Jenny Uglow's biography, Elizabeth Gaskell: A Habit of Stories, next: have you read it?

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/BookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?EAN=9780374147518

Does anyone know if the serial ending is available somewhere on the Web for us to read? I actually like the novel ending very much: it leaves room for the imagination!

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-24-200705:00 PM

Message Edited by Choisya on 01-24-200705:00 PM

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Re: For Choisya, Liz, Danielle, and Ilana: A big THANK YOU!



pmath wrote:
As we enter the last week of our discussion of Elizabeth Gaskell's North and South, I'd like to thank all of you,

  • Choisya, for your support, and for sharing your extensive knowledge;

  • Liz, for your detailed analyses, and for your thoughtful commentary;

  • Danielle, for your insights, and for your encouragement; and

  • Ilana, for your help, and for watching over us so kindly.
I've learned a lot about this wonderful novel this month!

Message Edited by pmath on 01-23-200708:00 PM





Il n'y a pas de quoi = you're welcome, Next time I'll try to go deeper into my remarks.
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Elizabeth Gaskell's THE LIFE OF CHARLOTTE BRONTË

Thanks, Choisya: I'll have to read that, too, now! Here's a link to the B&N Classics edition, if anyone else is interested in reading it:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?EAN=9781593083144


Choisya wrote:
I have read her biog of Charlotte Bronte ... and that is very good.
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N&S: A Classic and a Crowd-Pleaser

[ Edited ]
Yes, and perhaps it's because N&S, like Moby Dick, is such a great book: it's certainly unusual, even for a classic, for all active participants in a discussion to love a book!

We're very lucky indeed to have Ilana and Bob with us.


Choisya wrote:
This and Moby Dick have, I think, been the most successful boards since the start of the new B&N. Ilana and Fanuzzir have both been great moderators and guides too.

IlanaSimons wrote:
Congratulations on a great run
Ilana

pmath wrote:
I've learned a lot about this wonderful novel this month!


Message Edited by pmath on 01-24-200708:40 PM

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Through Chapter XLV (Vol. II, Ch. XX): John's Dream

I think John's dream is a reflection of his feelings for Margaret. He still loves her fiercely, passionately, and deeply. He had placed her on a pedestal with is love - endowing her with everything good, perfect, and brilliant. But now he's faced with her flaws....the other man with whom she seemed so intimate and her lies about that night, that he feels that she isn't the same person he thought she was. And yet, he still loves her - loves her despite everything. And he castigates himself for this. He's still drawn to her but doesn't want to be, hence the "loathe her" ... "allured him."


pmath wrote:
What do you make of all the dreams?
John's, from Chapter XL (Vol. II, Ch. XV):

... he dreamt she came dancing towards him with outspread arms, and with a lightness and gaiety which made him loathe her, even while it allured him. But the impression of this figure of Margaret--with all Margaret's character taken out of it, as completely as if some evil spirit had got possession of her form--was so deeply stamped upon his imagination, that when he wakened he felt hardly able to separate the Una from the Duessa; and the dislike he had to the latter seemed to envelope and disfigure the former.
Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Re: Through Chapter XLV (Vol. II, Ch. XX): John's Dream

This is also reference to Spenser's Faerie Queen where Una represents the True Church and Duessa represents the 'false religion' of the Catholic Church (and Mary Queen of Scots). The work is an allegory in praise of Queen Elizabeth I - the Virgin Queen. Una also represents Truth. I think it is still part of the 'dissent' which Gaskell alludes to throughout the novel. There is the threat of bankcruptcy over Thornton at this time and his failure as a businessman can perhaps be likened to Mr Hale's failure as a Church of England priest earlier in the novel. When discussing their prospects with his mother there is this exchange (Chapter 50):

'I sometimes have wondered where justice was gone to, and now I
don't believe there is such a thing in the world,--now you are
come to this; you, my own John Thornton, though you and I may be
beggars together--my own dear son!'

She fell upon his neck, and kissed him through her tears.

'Mother!' said he, holding her gently in his arms, 'who has sent
me my lot in life, both of good and of evil?'

She shook her head. She would have nothing to do with religion
just then.


I think the dream not only speaks of his love for Margaret but also of other tensions which beset him at this time and which are present in the novel. The stark 'contrasts' of North and South are always there; rich v. poor, rural v.industrial, genteel women v. working women and true church v. dissenters. Just some thoughts for you all to chew on:smileyvery-happy:




LizzieAnn wrote:
I think John's dream is a reflection of his feelings for Margaret. He still loves her fiercely, passionately, and deeply. He had placed her on a pedestal with is love - endowing her with everything good, perfect, and brilliant. But now he's faced with her flaws....the other man with whom she seemed so intimate and her lies about that night, that he feels that she isn't the same person he thought she was. And yet, he still loves her - loves her despite everything. And he castigates himself for this. He's still drawn to her but doesn't want to be, hence the "loathe her" ... "allured him."


pmath wrote:
What do you make of all the dreams?
John's, from Chapter XL (Vol. II, Ch. XV):

... he dreamt she came dancing towards him with outspread arms, and with a lightness and gaiety which made him loathe her, even while it allured him. But the impression of this figure of Margaret--with all Margaret's character taken out of it, as completely as if some evil spirit had got possession of her form--was so deeply stamped upon his imagination, that when he wakened he felt hardly able to separate the Una from the Duessa; and the dislike he had to the latter seemed to envelope and disfigure the former.



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Chapter XL (Vol. II, Ch. XV): Una and Duessa

[ Edited ]
Thanks, Choisya: this is fascinating. Now I'll have to read The Faerie Queen, too.


Choisya wrote:
This is also reference to Spenser's Faerie Queen where Una represents the True Church and Duessa represents the 'false religion' of the Catholic Church (and Mary Queen of Scots). The work is an allegory in praise of Queen Elizabeth I - the Virgin Queen. Una also represents Truth. I think it is still part of the 'dissent' which Gaskell alludes to throughout the novel. There is the threat of bankcruptcy over Thornton at this time and his failure as a businessman can perhaps be likened to Mr Hale's failure as a Church of England priest earlier in the novel.

...

I think the dream not only speaks of his love for Margaret but also of other tensions which beset him at this time and which are present in the novel. The stark 'contrasts' of North and South are always there; rich v. poor, rural v.industrial, genteel women v. working women and true church v. dissenters. Just some thoughts for you all to chew on:smileyvery-happy:

pmath wrote:
John's [dream], from Chapter XL (Vol. II, Ch. XV):

... he dreamt she came dancing towards him with outspread arms, and with a lightness and gaiety which made him loathe her, even while it allured him. But the impression of this figure of Margaret--with all Margaret's character taken out of it, as completely as if some evil spirit had got possession of her form--was so deeply stamped upon his imagination, that when he wakened he felt hardly able to separate the Una from the Duessa; and the dislike he had to the latter seemed to envelope and disfigure the former.


Message Edited by pmath on 01-25-200706:30 PM

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Re: Chapter XL (Vol. II, Ch. XV): Una and Duessa



pmath wrote:
Now I'll have to read The Fairie Queen,


You have at least two choices. The edition edited by A.C. Hamilton is probably the most accurate modern edition of the text, with extensive notes. It uses the original language and spelling, which is distracting at first but quickly I recommend it for a serious reading of FQ.

Everyman has brought out an edition with modernized spelling, which is a bit easier to read. However, it is only a selection, though a fairly extensive selection, of the work. It omits a number of cantos, and drops out Book 5 entirely. It has no notes (though it does give in the margin the meaning of unfamiliar words). Even with that, it is 600 pages long.

Of these two, if what you want is the meat of the FQ in a relatively easier to read format, go for the Everyman edition. If you want to read the whole poem as written, go with the Hamilton edition.

There are probably other editions out there, but these are the two I'm familiar with.
_______________
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Re: Chapter XL (Vol. II, Ch. XV): Una and Duessa

I have the paperback Penguin Classics edition, which might be the cheapest at around $13. It is the Roche text and has around 1000 pages and would have been better, IMO, in two volumes, even though I like fat books:smileyhappy: I agree that Hamilton is usually considered to be the best scholarly text but Roche is easier and the Notes are good, as is usual with Penguin editions. You pays your money and takes your pick, to use an English expression:smileyhappy:




Everyman wrote:


pmath wrote:
Now I'll have to read The Fairie Queen,


You have at least two choices. The edition edited by A.C. Hamilton is probably the most accurate modern edition of the text, with extensive notes. It uses the original language and spelling, which is distracting at first but quickly I recommend it for a serious reading of FQ.

Everyman has brought out an edition with modernized spelling, which is a bit easier to read. However, it is only a selection, though a fairly extensive selection, of the work. It omits a number of cantos, and drops out Book 5 entirely. It has no notes (though it does give in the margin the meaning of unfamiliar words). Even with that, it is 600 pages long.

Of these two, if what you want is the meat of the FQ in a relatively easier to read format, go for the Everyman edition. If you want to read the whole poem as written, go with the Hamilton edition.

There are probably other editions out there, but these are the two I'm familiar with.


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Edmund Spenser's THE FAERIE QUEEN

[ Edited ]
Thanks: the choice is not an easy one, certainly! Below are links, if anyone else is interested, the first to what looks like a very nice edition of Book One: it may be a good start.

Fierce Wars and Faithful Loves: Book One of Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queen

The Faerie Queene (Penguin Classics)

Spenser: The Faerie Queene, 2nd ed.

Choisya wrote:
I have the paperback Penguin Classics edition, which might be the cheapest at around $13. It is the Roche text and has around 1000 pages and would have been better, IMO, in two volumes, even though I like fat books:smileyhappy: I agree that Hamilton is usually considered to be the best scholarly text but Roche is easier and the Notes are good, as is usual with Penguin editions. You pays your money and takes your pick, to use an English expression:smileyhappy:

Everyman wrote:
The edition edited by A.C. Hamilton is probably the most accurate modern edition of the text, with extensive notes. It uses the original language and spelling, which is distracting at first but quickly I recommend it for a serious reading of FQ.

pmath wrote:
Now I'll have to read The Faerie Queen, too.

Message Edited by pmath on 01-26-200709:40 PM

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Re: Through Chapter XLV (Vol. II, Ch. XX): Dreams

Bessy's (of Margaret), from Chapter XIX:

'... But dun yo' know, I ha' dreamt of yo', long afore ever I seed yo'.'

'Nonsense, Bessy!'

'Ay, but I did. Yo'r very face,--looking wi' yo'r clear steadfast eyes out o' th' darkness, wi' yo'r hair blown off from yo'r brow, and going out like rays round yo'r forehead, which was just as smooth and as straight as it is now,--and yo' always came to give me strength, which I seemed to gather out o' yo'r deep comforting eyes,--and yo' were drest in shining raiment--just as yo'r going to be drest. So, yo' see, it was yo'!


Since Bessy is very sick and since she knows some part of the bible very well, her dream is like a premonition about her imminent death. Margaret acts as the angel which will give her strengh to face her destiny. Margaret is also an early vision of the paradise where the innocent Bessy is supposed to go.
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From Ch. LII (Vol. II, Ch. XXVII), looking back: UTOPIA, etc.

[ Edited ]
We're planning to discuss Thomas More's Utopia here soon: what do you make of John's thoughts on some of the classics, looking back? From Chapter X:

'But you have had the rudiments of a good education,' remarked Mr. Hale. 'The quick zest with which you are now reading Homer, shows me that you do not come to it as an unknown book; you have read it before, and are only recalling your old knowledge.'

'That is true,--I had blundered along it at school; I dare say, I was even considered a pretty fair classic in those days, though my Latin and Greek have slipt away from me since. But I ask you, what preparation they were for such a life as I had to lead? None at all. Utterly none at all. On the point of education, any man who can read and write starts fair with me in the amount of really useful knowledge that I had at that time.'

'Well! I don't agree with you. But there I am perhaps somewhat of a pedant. Did not the recollection of the heroic simplicity of the Homeric life nerve you up?'

'Not one bit!' exclaimed Mr. Thornton, laughing. 'I was too busy to think about any dead people, with the living pressing alongside of me, neck to neck, in the struggle for bread. Now that I have my mother safe in the quiet peace that becomes her age, and duly rewards her former exertions, I can turn to all that old narration and thoroughly enjoy it.'

'I dare say, my remark came from the professional feeling of there being nothing like leather,' replied Mr. Hale.
and from Chapter XV:

'My theory is, that my interests are identical with those of my workpeople and vice-versa. Miss Hale, I know, does not like to hear men called 'hands,' so I won't use that word, though it comes most readily to my lips as the technical term, whose origin, whatever it was, dates before my time. On some future day--in some millennium--in Utopia, this unity may be brought into practice--just as I can fancy a republic the most perfect form of government.'

'We will read Plato's Republic as soon as we have finished Homer.'

'Well, in the Platonic year, it may fall out that we are all--men women, and children--fit for a republic: but give me a constitutional monarchy in our present state of morals and intelligence. In our infancy we require a wise despotism to govern us. Indeed, long past infancy, children and young people are the happiest under the unfailing laws of a discreet, firm authority. I agree with Miss Hale so far as to consider our people in the condition of children, while I deny that we, the masters, have anything to do with the making or keeping them so. I maintain that despotism is the best kind of government for them; so that in the hours in which I come in contact with them I must necessarily be an autocrat. I will use my best discretion--from no humbug or philanthropic feeling, of which we have had rather too much in the North--to make wise laws and come to just decisions in the conduct of my business--laws and decisions which work for my own good in the first instance--for theirs in the second; but I will neither be forced to give my reasons, nor flinch from what I have once declared to be my resolution. Let them turn out! I shall suffer as well as they: but at the end they will find I have not bated nor altered one jot.'

Message Edited by pmath on 01-26-200709:15 PM

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Through Chapter XLV (Vol. II, Ch. XX): Balance

Yes, more people were certainly familiar with the bible, or parts of it, back then. I read Mary Barton again recently, and it's interesting to see how balanced N&S is in comparison, with something for everyone, which is probably why we all like it! There are also a lot of references to external sources for further exploration.


chadadanielleKR wrote:
Since Bessy is very sick and since she knows some part of the bible very well, her dream is like a premonition about her imminent death. Margaret acts as the angel which will give her strengh to face her destiny. Margaret is also an early vision of the paradise where the innocent Bessy is supposed to go.

pmath wrote:
Bessy's [dream] (of Margaret), from Chapter XIX:

'... But dun yo' know, I ha' dreamt of yo', long afore ever I seed yo'.'

'Nonsense, Bessy!'

'Ay, but I did. Yo'r very face,--looking wi' yo'r clear steadfast eyes out o' th' darkness, wi' yo'r hair blown off from yo'r brow, and going out like rays round yo'r forehead, which was just as smooth and as straight as it is now,--and yo' always came to give me strength, which I seemed to gather out o' yo'r deep comforting eyes,--and yo' were drest in shining raiment--just as yo'r going to be drest. So, yo' see, it was yo'!


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Through Ch. LII (Vol. II, Ch. XXVII): Shawls, Revisited

[ Edited ]
From http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/gaskell/sacerdoti1.html:

...Gaskell shows how Margaret Hale in North and South ends up having a lot more to her personality and character than the "ladies' business" Henry Lennox speaks of in the opening chapter. Yet this does not stop her taking part in the "playing with shawls" that the ladies in the Harley Street gathering seem to enjoy. As a sensible and balanced person she is quite able to do both, playing the part of a lady when she is in London, and playing the part of a responsible decision maker when she is back with her parents in Helstone, or in a dispute between the workers and their master in Milton. ... It is after all Margaret Hale who bridges the key rifts in the novel, such as that between North and South, and that between the workers and their master, and ultimately, that between her and John Thornton.

pmath wrote (here):
I found this dialog between Henry and Margaret [in Chapter I] very interesting:

'Well, I suppose you are all in the depths of business--ladies' business, I mean. Very different to my business, which is the real true law business. Playing with shawls is very different work to drawing up settlements.

'Ah, I knew how you would be amused to find us all so occupied in admiring finery. But really Indian shawls are very perfect things of their kind.'

'I have no doubt they are. Their prices are very perfect, too. Nothing wanting.'
What does this say about him? (How expensive were Indian shawls?)

Message Edited by pmath on 01-28-200711:10 PM

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Elizabeth Gaskell: "powerful and finished"

From http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/gaskell/bio.html:

In November 1865, when reporting her death, The Athenaeum rated G. as "if not the most popular, with small question, the most powerful and finished female novelist of an epoch singularly rich in female novelists."
Amen!
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Re: From Ch. LII (Vol. II, Ch. XXVII), looking back: UTOPIA, etc.

When Thornton says 'But I ask you, what preparation they were for such a life as I had to lead? None at all. Utterly none at all. On the point of education, any man who can read and write starts fair with me in the amount of really useful knowledge that I had at that time' he is voicing the concerns of businessmen of his time. This was the period just before universal education and only those who could afford an education got one and that was mainly in the classics at 'grammar schools'. There were also 'dame schools' where girls got a rudimentary but not classical education. And of course there were dreadful unregulated schools like Dotheboys Hall in Nicholas Nickelby:smileysad: In the late Victorian era businessmen, like Mr Thornton, began agitating for state education because they realised that modern industry required people who could read, write and understand arithmetic. In 1881, 27 years after N&S was published, the first state Education Act was passed, which required all children between the ages of 8-13 to attend school, although there was much truancy amongst poor children, whose parents needed their earnings. Mr Hale, being a clergyman, would have had a good education in the classics and would of course favour this above the need to educate workers for more practical occupations. This is a debate which still rages today in the UK where we now have very few schools, even the old grammar schools such as the one I attended, which teach Latin and/or Greek.

Thornton's remarks about republicanism and despotism are interesting here. Benevolent despotism was favoured because Britain had had benign monarchs since the Hanoverian succession (1702) - 'the Georges'. (Although Americans may not find the reign of George III benign, the British did:smileyhappy:.) However, in the Victorian erea and pursuant upon the French Revolution, republicanism was in the air. When Prince Albert died and Queen Victoria shut herself away for a long period, it became quite the vogue and there were quite a few demonstrations and newspaper articles about it. There were those who felt that since these monarchs could only 'rule' through Parliament, that Britain might as well be a republic. Mr Thornton, with his autocratic views towards his workers, clearly believed in benevolent despotism - the problem being with that theory is that, whether it appertains to non-constitutional hereditary monarchy or factory owners, benevolent rulers can die and despots can inherit.




pmath wrote:
We're planning to discuss Thomas More's Utopia here soon: what do you make of John's thoughts on some of the classics, looking back? From Chapter X:

'But you have had the rudiments of a good education,' remarked Mr. Hale. 'The quick zest with which you are now reading Homer, shows me that you do not come to it as an unknown book; you have read it before, and are only recalling your old knowledge.'

'That is true,--I had blundered along it at school; I dare say, I was even considered a pretty fair classic in those days, though my Latin and Greek have slipt away from me since. But I ask you, what preparation they were for such a life as I had to lead? None at all. Utterly none at all. On the point of education, any man who can read and write starts fair with me in the amount of really useful knowledge that I had at that time.'

'Well! I don't agree with you. But there I am perhaps somewhat of a pedant. Did not the recollection of the heroic simplicity of the Homeric life nerve you up?'

'Not one bit!' exclaimed Mr. Thornton, laughing. 'I was too busy to think about any dead people, with the living pressing alongside of me, neck to neck, in the struggle for bread. Now that I have my mother safe in the quiet peace that becomes her age, and duly rewards her former exertions, I can turn to all that old narration and thoroughly enjoy it.'

'I dare say, my remark came from the professional feeling of there being nothing like leather,' replied Mr. Hale.
and from Chapter XV:

'My theory is, that my interests are identical with those of my workpeople and vice-versa. Miss Hale, I know, does not like to hear men called 'hands,' so I won't use that word, though it comes most readily to my lips as the technical term, whose origin, whatever it was, dates before my time. On some future day--in some millennium--in Utopia, this unity may be brought into practice--just as I can fancy a republic the most perfect form of government.'

'We will read Plato's Republic as soon as we have finished Homer.'

'Well, in the Platonic year, it may fall out that we are all--men women, and children--fit for a republic: but give me a constitutional monarchy in our present state of morals and intelligence. In our infancy we require a wise despotism to govern us. Indeed, long past infancy, children and young people are the happiest under the unfailing laws of a discreet, firm authority. I agree with Miss Hale so far as to consider our people in the condition of children, while I deny that we, the masters, have anything to do with the making or keeping them so. I maintain that despotism is the best kind of government for them; so that in the hours in which I come in contact with them I must necessarily be an autocrat. I will use my best discretion--from no humbug or philanthropic feeling, of which we have had rather too much in the North--to make wise laws and come to just decisions in the conduct of my business--laws and decisions which work for my own good in the first instance--for theirs in the second; but I will neither be forced to give my reasons, nor flinch from what I have once declared to be my resolution. Let them turn out! I shall suffer as well as they: but at the end they will find I have not bated nor altered one jot.'

Message Edited by pmath on 01-26-200709:15 PM




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