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Everyman
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Re: Plato



historybuff234 wrote:
Choisya, I really didn't know that Plato had an influence on Christianity. Could somebody inform me on Plato's influence on Christianity?

Augustine was much more influenced by Plato than by Aristotle, for starters.
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Laurel
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Re: Before and After Thomas More's UTOPIA

Allan Bloom is the man for me, too. Besides all this, he's very readable.




Everyman wrote:

pmath wrote:
I hear W. H. D. Rouse's translation of The Republic is very readable:smileyembarrassed:


It's certainly one of the standard translations and perfectly readable, but personally I prefer the Allan Bloom (no, NOT Harold Bloom!) translation.

The reasons I like Bloom are, first, that he has the benefit of more recent scholarship that wasn't available to Jowett, Rouse, and other earlier translators. Second, and more important to me, he has stuck more closely to what Plato actually wrote. While every translator injects a certain part of themselves and their thinking into any work they translate, other translators of Plato have tended to try to help readers out by shading their translations to match their personal interpretations of difficult or potentially ambiguous passages. (Jowett and Cornford are famous, or infamous, for this; I haven't studied Rouse carefully enough to know how he handles such passages, so can't specifically criticize his translation on this ground.) These editorial interpretations are sometimes controversial and sometimes haven't stood up to the test of time.

Bloom has tried as much as possible to stick with what Plato wrote, and let the reader decide what the passages mean, even where that may mean seeming repetitive or allowing a potentially ambiguous passage to remain ambiguous. As a serious reader of Plato, I appreciate this approach.


"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Choisya
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Re: Plato translations.

Sorry but I find Bloom far too conservative (and eccentric). His references are often weak or not there at all, relying rather on his strong opinions. I have the Penguin Classic edition with Professor Desmond Lee's translation and Notes. Lee was a Cambridge Classics scholar. B&N do the Desmond Lee translation too:-

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780140449143&itm=1

Robin Waterfield, Professor of Greek Cultural History at Durham University, has also done a translation of The Republic which is the one currently used in our schools. I also looked at a more atheistic/pantheistic version by Grube & Reeve recently which looked interesting. B&N do a combined book and audio with a translation by Reeve:-

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&endeca=1&isbn=9626341955&itm=1

You pays your money and takes your pick:smileyhappy:




Laurel wrote:
Allan Bloom is the man for me, too. Besides all this, he's very readable.




Everyman wrote:

pmath wrote:
I hear W. H. D. Rouse's translation of The Republic is very readable:smileyembarrassed:


It's certainly one of the standard translations and perfectly readable, but personally I prefer the Allan Bloom (no, NOT Harold Bloom!) translation.

The reasons I like Bloom are, first, that he has the benefit of more recent scholarship that wasn't available to Jowett, Rouse, and other earlier translators. Second, and more important to me, he has stuck more closely to what Plato actually wrote. While every translator injects a certain part of themselves and their thinking into any work they translate, other translators of Plato have tended to try to help readers out by shading their translations to match their personal interpretations of difficult or potentially ambiguous passages. (Jowett and Cornford are famous, or infamous, for this; I haven't studied Rouse carefully enough to know how he handles such passages, so can't specifically criticize his translation on this ground.) These editorial interpretations are sometimes controversial and sometimes haven't stood up to the test of time.

Bloom has tried as much as possible to stick with what Plato wrote, and let the reader decide what the passages mean, even where that may mean seeming repetitive or allowing a potentially ambiguous passage to remain ambiguous. As a serious reader of Plato, I appreciate this approach.





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Choisya
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Re: Philosophy in UK primary schools

[ Edited ]
I heard something on BBC radio today about Guided Socratic Dialogue being introduced to some UK schools and found this Guardian piece:

'Playgrounds throughout the land may soon ring with the cut and thrust of neo-Socratic dialogue after Clackmananshire council yesterday become the first local authority in Britain to announce plans for philosophy lessons for children from the nursery to secondary school level. Primary school children in the region have already been taught "philosophical inquiry". This encourages what its creators call "guided Socratic dialogue" - by inviting children to consider open-ended questions such as: "Is it ever OK to lie?

A follow-up study suggested that the five- to 11-year-olds had not been forced to drink hemlock as a punishment for excessively original thought, like Socrates, nor like Plato left the television set on full blast all night to keep them awake so they could continue thinking (he had deliberately taken lodgings in a street of noisy goldsmiths, but the philosophy is the same). Instead it showed the IQ of the children had improved.
A Dundee University study suggests the intelligence gain - an average of 6.5 IQ points - has been maintained among those now in secondary schools, despite no further formal exposure to philosophy. The council has now won a grant from the Scottish Executive, and plans to extend philosophy to secondary schools and nurseries.

Paul Cleghorn, head teacher at Sunnyside primary in Alloa, one of the leaders of the initiative, said: "If beginning at nursery school children are given the tools for better critical thinking, we are beginning to build for a more reasonable world."

Here is a relevant link:-

http://living.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=194372007

Message Edited by Choisya on 02-18-200703:36 PM

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Everyman
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Re: Philosophy in UK primary schools

Thanks, Choisya. What a good example! If primary school students can learn from Plato, we here certainly can too. When shall we put our first Platonic dialogue on the reading schedule?
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W. H. D. Rouse's Translation of THE REPUBLIC

Choisya, I just read Book I, and the translation is very good. The print in this edition is relatively small, though, so you may be better off with your Penguin Classics edition anyway!


Choisya wrote:
For goodness sake pmath - by the time I have finished reading your reocmmendations, I will be bankrupt!:smileysurprised::smileysurprised:

pmath wrote:
... I also just got this collection of Plato's dialogues in preparation for our discussion of Thomas More's Utopia, since I hear W. H. D. Rouse's translation of The Republic is very readable:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?EAN=9780451527455
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: Plato translations.

Perhaps you prefer Lee to Bloom because you prefer the British to the American approach to the Greeks. Which wouldn't be surprising.
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Laurel
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Re: Plato translations.



Everyman wrote:
Perhaps you prefer Lee to Bloom because you prefer the British to the American approach to the Greeks. Which wouldn't be surprising.




Bloom is Jewish, too, I think, so that adds to his perspective. I love his translation.
"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Choisya
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Re: Philosophy in UK primary schools

I think it is Socratic dialogue Everyman, not Platonic:smileyhappy:




Everyman wrote:
Thanks, Choisya. What a good example! If primary school students can learn from Plato, we here certainly can too. When shall we put our first Platonic dialogue on the reading schedule?


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Choisya
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Re: Plato translations.

[ Edited ]
Yes that is probably true. I find a lot of American writing too hyberbolic. I like a bit of stiff upper lip:smileyhappy:




Everyman wrote:
Perhaps you prefer Lee to Bloom because you prefer the British to the American approach to the Greeks. Which wouldn't be surprising.

Message Edited by Choisya on 02-19-200701:29 AM

Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: Philosophy in UK primary schools

[ Edited ]

Choisya wrote:
I think it is Socratic dialogue Everyman, not Platonic:smileyhappy:

Some say potato, some say pothato.

Message Edited by Everyman on 02-19-200712:19 PM

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historybuff234
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Re: Philosophy in UK primary schools

[ Edited ]
I agree with what you guys said about philosophy in UK schools. I think that it is great that I an going to be more philosophy right now when I am 7th grade. I think it will help em when I get to college. When I read The Prince it really makes me think about things. It made think about the situation in Iraq and i the world right now right now and I came up with a way that I think will improve the situation.

You are only limited by the boundries of your imagination and the laws in your area- Red Green

Message Edited by historybuff234 on 02-19-200705:46 PM

The important thing, is to keep the important thing the important thing.
-Albert Einstein
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Choisya
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Re: Philosophy in UK primary schools

You had better make an appointment to see President Bush right away Historybuff:smileysurprised::smileyhappy:




historybuff234 wrote:
I agree with what you guys said about philosophy in UK schools. I think that it is great that I an going to be more philosophy right now when I am 7th grade. I think it will help em when I get to college. When I read The Prince it really makes me think about things. It made think about the situation in Iraq and i the world right now right now and I came up with a way that I think will improve the situation.

You are only limited by the boundries of your imagination and the laws in your area- Red Green

Message Edited by historybuff234 on 02-19-200705:46 PM




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historybuff234
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Re: Philosophy in UK primary schools

You know I think I will.

One day I won't have to make an appointment because one day I will be the president.
The important thing, is to keep the important thing the important thing.
-Albert Einstein
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: Philosophy in UK primary schools



historybuff234 wrote:
You know I think I will.

One day I won't have to make an appointment because one day I will be the president.



when you are, make reading the Republic mandatory for all students in the US.
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Choisya
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Re: Philosophy in UK primary schools

Good for you! Go to it!





historybuff234 wrote:
You know I think I will.

One day I won't have to make an appointment because one day I will be the president.


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Choisya
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Re: Philosophy in UK primary schools

LOL Everyman - and Aristotle, Socrates, Machiavelli and.......




Everyman wrote:


historybuff234 wrote:
You know I think I will.

One day I won't have to make an appointment because one day I will be the president.



when you are, make reading the Republic mandatory for all students in the US.


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Choisya
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Re: Historybuff : More Machiavelli

[ Edited ]
Historybuff: This essay may interest you:-

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/Machiavelli_ForPol.html

Message Edited by Choisya on 02-20-200707:02 AM

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historybuff234
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Re: Historybuff : More Machiavelli

Thanks I won't have time to read allof it right now, but thanks.

I am the state- Louis XV
The important thing, is to keep the important thing the important thing.
-Albert Einstein
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historybuff234
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Re: Historybuff : More Machiavelli

[ Edited ]
Thanks I won't have time to read all of it right now, but thanks.

Sorry this message got posted twice.

Message Edited by historybuff234 on 02-20-200705:35 PM

The important thing, is to keep the important thing the important thing.
-Albert Einstein
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