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Timbuktu1
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Re: Plato

right!
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Timbuktu1
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Re: Plato

Just got back from my Plato/Odyssey class and and was wondering if anyone has ever seen the connections between Plato and the Odyssey. Although Plato outlaws the reading of Homer in his Republic it seems to me that he got so much out of it. Am I going too far or doesn't Odysseus have some things in common with the guardians? Self control, love of knowledge, endurance, temperance, to name a few.
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Everyman
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Re: Plato

You have the makings of a great PhD thesis there. :smileyhappy:

One other connection between the guardians and Odysseus is the ability lie convincingly. The guardians have to tell the Noble Lies and get the people to believe them. Odysseus is a master at deception and trickery.


Timbuktu1 wrote:
Just got back from my Plato/Odyssey class and and was wondering if anyone has ever seen the connections between Plato and the Odyssey. Although Plato outlaws the reading of Homer in his Republic it seems to me that he got so much out of it. Am I going too far or doesn't Odysseus have some things in common with the guardians? Self control, love of knowledge, endurance, temperance, to name a few.


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I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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Timbuktu1
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Re: Plato



Everyman wrote:
You have the makings of a great PhD thesis there. :smileyhappy:

One other connection between the guardians and Odysseus is the ability lie convincingly. The guardians have to tell the Noble Lies and get the people to believe them. Odysseus is a master at deception and trickery.


Timbuktu1 wrote:
Just got back from my Plato/Odyssey class and and was wondering if anyone has ever seen the connections between Plato and the Odyssey. Although Plato outlaws the reading of Homer in his Republic it seems to me that he got so much out of it. Am I going too far or doesn't Odysseus have some things in common with the guardians? Self control, love of knowledge, endurance, temperance, to name a few.







Thanks for the input. Sometimes these things seem so obvious to me and no one else, it helps to have some validation. Yes, Odysseus would do a good job with the noble lie.

I've recommended the Eva Brann books and teaching company tapes to my classmates. They're really having a hard time with the Republic. I haven't told them that I have "Everyman" in my corner and that's why I understand it!
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Everyman
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Re: Plato



Timbuktu1 wrote:
I haven't told them that I have "Everyman" in my corner and that's why I understand it!


Blush. :smileyhappy: But you don't give yourself nearly enough credit. I just slipped a few random thoughts out there; you've done all the work. But isn't it neat when Plato starts to make sense -- not that one agrees with him necessarily, but understanding what's behind what he's saying so you can have a fruitful dialogue with him.
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Timbuktu1
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Re: Plato



Everyman wrote:


Timbuktu1 wrote:
I haven't told them that I have "Everyman" in my corner and that's why I understand it!


Blush. :smileyhappy: But you don't give yourself nearly enough credit. I just slipped a few random thoughts out there; you've done all the work. But isn't it neat when Plato starts to make sense -- not that one agrees with him necessarily, but understanding what's behind what he's saying so you can have a fruitful dialogue with him.




Exactly. It's difficult and challenging and all the more rewarding when it starts to make sense. I have no real background in the humanities. My education and interests have always been in the social sciences and history. My whole way of thinking has been to look at facts and data and evidence, and even then, only making tentative conclusions. That's why, I think, I have a love/hate relationship with this course of study. On the one hand, the philosophers are the originators of logical thinking and understanding how to "know" as well as understanding how little we know. It was a real revelation to learn what a giant Socrates was and how my entire way of thinking has been guided by him without my knowing it. On the other hand, especially with literature, its so easy to go astray. There's so much truth in literature, as well, but the subjective reading of it goes against my grain. Everyone brings something personal to it which is what makes it wonderful but at the same time I feel I'm on shaky ground. How can I say with any certainty what Homer must have

meant? I can see the evidence, but the next person doesn't. It feels odd to me, to have ideas and convictions that have no real "proof". My husband is an artist/professor and I've always had trouble with his interpretations of art. Other than giving historical background or technical explanation, can he really teach someone else what to see and what to feel? I guess that's why I've always read non-fiction. Facts, just the facts maam! But stretching is good and I'm learning. It's a whole new world I've entered. Next book, Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. Anyway, thank you again for helping me in this process.
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Timbuktu1
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Re: Plato



Everyman wrote:
Which two? I assume The Music of the Republic, but which is the second one? She wrote quite a number of books.

Timbuktu1 wrote:
Many thanks, once again! I bought the two books by Eva Brann and they're wonderful. They're exactly what I needed. She writes wonderfully. Only problem, tearing myself away from her to read the real thing!







I'm sure the answer to my questions is somewhere in Eva Brann's book but if anyone can save me the trouble of the search....

Why does Plato end The Republic by creating a myth when he says he does not approve of myth.
Is the entire book ironic?

Also, he criticizes Homer for walking around, not being productive, not being honored. Sounds an awful lot like Socrates! When did "honor" become important to him as a goal?

I can understand why some people read this book every year. So much there but so difficult to understand. My poor brain is exhausted!
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Everyman
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Re: Plato

Why does Plato end The Republic by creating a myth when he says he does not approve of myth.
Is the entire book ironic?


I'm sure Brann would have a much better answer than this, but I think he doesn't want the philosopher-kings to be ruled by myth, because they don't need it. But the people do need to be ruled by myth and lies (such as the gold, silver, and bronze lie which is clearly false, and he knows it, but is useful to help keep the stare ordered). I think he recognizes the power myth can carry even as he wants his philosopher-kings in the end to rise above myth to actual truth (they are the only ones who can handle truth).

JMHO.

BTW, you never told me which was the second of the Brann books you referred to.
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Timbuktu1
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Re: Plato



Everyman wrote:
Why does Plato end The Republic by creating a myth when he says he does not approve of myth.
Is the entire book ironic?


I'm sure Brann would have a much better answer than this, but I think he doesn't want the philosopher-kings to be ruled by myth, because they don't need it. But the people do need to be ruled by myth and lies (such as the gold, silver, and bronze lie which is clearly false, and he knows it, but is useful to help keep the stare ordered). I think he recognizes the power myth can carry even as he wants his philosopher-kings in the end to rise above myth to actual truth (they are the only ones who can handle truth).

JMHO.

BTW, you never told me which was the second of the Brann books you referred to.




Thanks so much Everyman. I tried finding the answers in Eva Brann's book but it wasn't there and what you say makes perfect sense. Whew!

Homeric Moments was the second book.
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jamisha12
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Re: Plato

Nice one EVERYMAN totallyy agrree i mean about Plato yea i mean theu need some attention sometime.
~ Jamisha R.
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