Austen's PERSUASION: The Novel

[ConnieAnnKirk]

Shall we begin a discussion of this novel?  Those of you who love it--what do you like best?  Anyone compare this one less favorably to other Austen novels?

[dulcinea3]

I have been considering why this is my favorite Austen novel.  I know that some others here on the book clubs have said that it their favorite, too. 

The reason that seems to be given most often is that it is Austen's 'most mature' novel, with her 'most mature' heroine, and so, as we have gotten older ourselves, it appeals to us more.  I think that there is probably something in that.  The first time I read Persuasion, I was in ninth grade (14 years old).  It didn't really impress me.  And it wasn't that I was unappreciative of that general period of literature, as I loved novels by the Brontes and Dickens.  I think that I found Persuasion rather dull.  I believe that I had already read Northanger Abbey, for fun, probably a year or two earlier.  That novel remained my favorite Austen for years.  I find it more overtly funny than the others, and the Gothic aspect appealed to me.  It wasn't until years later, when I finally reread Persuasion, probably in my thirties or forties, that it became my favorite.  So, I can say that when I was younger, her most immature novel and heroine appealed to me most, and that when I was older, her most mature novel and heroine came to appeal to me the most.

I guess that I like to root for the underdog, if he/she is deserving, and although Austen has other heroines who could be considered underdogs, Anne Elliot is probably the most under of them all.  Bits and pieces of her misfortunes can be seen in other heroines (loss of family fortune and status in Sense and Sensibility, for example), but she has the greatest concentration.  Surrounded by family who overlook her and can't appreciate her, losing her family home, losing her 'bloom', and most of all, having lost the love of her life and very little prospects of ever getting him back or finding another.  We feel for her, and we understand her mortification when the rejected lover reappears and apparently has no more feeling for her, although she still cares for him.  All the little signs that he might be changing his attitude towards her make us start to hope that Anne may have a happy ending, after all.

[Everyman]

Nice post, dulcie.  But my take on it is a bit different -- perhaps a gender difference?   I haven't gotten past my initial reaction, which was the same as yours, that Anne is a dull heroine.  I see her as a goody two shoes without the character of a Jane Bennet.  (She is so imbued with the obedient young female role that she even says she was right to obey Lady Russell even though her advice was wrong.  What a drip!)  I just never come to care what happens to her. 

I also find the book to the least witty of the canon.  Not that it's totally devoid of wit -- Austen couldn't write without wit if she tried to, which she didn't.  But aside from Sir Walter's vanity and  immersion in Burke's, I just don't find the novel hitting that internal chuckle spot that most of Austen does.  

But I can see why her character would be more appealing to women in the prime of their lives.  Is there any other Austen heroine who hasn't found happiness by her late 20s?  I can't think of any offhand.  Even Charlotte Lucas manages to make her match at "only" 27.  Any female reader of maturer years who wants to feel that love isn't only a right of the young (and of course Charlotte isn't marrying for love, so she doesn't help) really has only Anne Elliot to look to.  

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dulcinea3 wrote:

I have been considering why this is my favorite Austen novel.  I know that some others here on the book clubs have said that it their favorite, too. 

The reason that seems to be given most often is that it is Austen's 'most mature' novel, with her 'most mature' heroine, and so, as we have gotten older ourselves, it appeals to us more.  I think that there is probably something in that.  The first time I read Persuasion, I was in ninth grade (14 years old).  It didn't really impress me.  And it wasn't that I was unappreciative of that general period of literature, as I loved novels by the Brontes and Dickens.  I think that I found Persuasion rather dull.  I believe that I had already read Northanger Abbey, for fun, probably a year or two earlier.  That novel remained my favorite Austen for years.  I find it more overtly funny than the others, and the Gothic aspect appealed to me.  It wasn't until years later, when I finally reread Persuasion, probably in my thirties or forties, that it became my favorite.  So, I can say that when I was younger, her most immature novel and heroine appealed to me most, and that when I was older, her most mature novel and heroine came to appeal to me the most.

I guess that I like to root for the underdog, if he/she is deserving, and although Austen has other heroines who could be considered underdogs, Anne Elliot is probably the most under of them all.  Bits and pieces of her misfortunes can be seen in other heroines (loss of family fortune and status in Sense and Sensibility, for example), but she has the greatest concentration.  Surrounded by family who overlook her and can't appreciate her, losing her family home, losing her 'bloom', and most of all, having lost the love of her life and very little prospects of ever getting him back or finding another.  We feel for her, and we understand her mortification when the rejected lover reappears and apparently has no more feeling for her, although she still cares for him.  All the little signs that he might be changing his attitude towards her make us start to hope that Anne may have a happy ending, after all.

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[dulcinea3]

Hmmm, Everyman, it seems to me that your view of Anne Elliot is very similar to my own view of Fanny Price - what a goody-two-shoes she is!  And that is why Mansfield Park is my own least favorite Austen.  But for some reason I don't really see Anne as quite as priggish as Fanny.  I know that she has come to accept her role as serving others - cheering up Mary through her hypochondriacal episodes, playing the piano while the Musgroves dance, etc, because she thinks there is nothing more for her in life.  But at the same time, I sense a kind of quiet dignity and character there that I don't so much in Fanny.  Charles Musgrove sees it and appreciates Anne.  Captain Wentworth doesn't see it at first, but comes to recognize and value it more and more.

I guess, though this may be repeating myself, that one of the main attractions for me is seeing a woman almost without hope that her life will get any better, start to have a glimmer of hope, and that hope gradually continues to increase, until the satisfying climax.  As you say, the other Austen heroines are younger and, it seems to me, have every hope of finding a suitable young man.

Some of the other relationships in the novel really appeal to me, as well.  I like the friendship between Anne and her brother-in-law Charles.  They seem to be so comfortable and friendly with one another.  I'm not sure there are really any other similar male-female friendships in Austen's works.  In some cases there seem to be, but then they develop into a romantic relationship, like Emma and Mr. Knightley.  Well, perhaps Elinor and Colonel Brandon have a good friendship in Sense and Sensibility.  I also think that the Crofts are one of the most delightful older married couples in Austen.  There is such a partnership there, with her living with him on the ships and being perfectly happy with the privations.  They are very attached to one another, and very friendly and considerate with everyone else.

[ConnieAnnKirk]

Our B&N Classics edition of Persuasion has rather generic Austen discussion questions in the back, but they might interest a few of you to think/talk about.

Here's one:

"Does Jane Austen ridicule a particular set of people with her wit?  Or is she witty at the expense of everybody?  Is is possible to derive a system of values from her wit?" (p. 246).

What do you think?

[dulcinea3]

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ConnieK wrote:

Our B&N Classics edition of Persuasion has rather generic Austen discussion questions in the back, but they might interest a few of you to think/talk about.

Here's one:

"Does Jane Austen ridicule a particular set of people with her wit?  Or is she witty at the expense of everybody?  Is is possible to derive a system of values from her wit?" (p. 246).

What do you think?

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I think I remember this question from an earlier discussion of this novel.  Although Austen is witty in general, she uses different levels of wit with different groups of characters.  She does not ridicule, or use wit "at the expense of" her main characters, heroes, and heroines.  Some of her secondary (or lower) characters tend to be caricatures, and in these cases, her wit is at its most biting, and she is definitely making a negative point at their expense.  In Persuasion, I think that such characters would include Sir Walter, Elizabeth, and Mary. Austen skewers their excessive pride, and throws in Mary's hypochondria for good measure.  In between, Austen tends to have some characters that seem somewhat like caricatures, but the wit she uses for them is much gentler, and she appears to have affection for these characters, rather than a negative opinion.  I think that the Musgroves might fall into this category.  Charles is the stereotypical country gentleman, obsessed with horses, dogs, and guns.  Henrietta and Louisa are somewhat giddy and eager to snare a man.  The Crofts are also somewhat humorous with their stories of their life together on the seas (and her illness when not with him at sea).

[SarahJaylin]

Hello Everyone! I am new to the book club, so I just wanted to say hi

I am a huge Jane Austen fan, and in terms of my feelings toward Persuasion, I LOVE IT! In fact, it is one of my most favorite Jane Austen novels. There is something so gripping about the Anne and her relationship with Captain Wentworth. They never stop loving each other, no matter how long they may have been apart, and while some may find that a bit unrealistic, I find it quite beautiful. They TRULY loved each other and that is what allowed their love to survive as long as it did. Anne may have been treated like a servant throughout much of the novel, but her humility and compassion are two qualities that make her as wonderful a character as she is. And who doesn't love the letter that Captain Wentworth wrote to end towards the end of the novel? Sigh. It makes me want to swoon. Is swooning still allowed in today's world? hehe

[dulcinea3]

Hi, SarahJaylin, and welcome to another Austen fan!  I hope you like other authors, as well, and will enjoy the book club!  We read Austen a lot, but we have to take a break from her once in a while - LOL!

[MissJoMay]

I hadn't intended to read this novel again (I just reread it last January when it was on Masterpiece), but I got back late from the airport Sunday night and needed something to read before going to sleep.  I didn't want to start a new book, so I decided to read the letter scene from the end of the novel.  Needless to say, it convinced me to read it again!

As I read Austen's description of Anne, I was struck by some similarities between Anne Elliot and Amy Dorrit.  What particularly struck me was how Anne's feelings and opinions mattered very little to her family; "her word had no weight; her convenience was always to give way;--she was only Anne."  I thought this was very much like Dickens' description of Amy's family always assuming and almost taking for granted that Amy would take care of them.

To their families, both Anne and Amy serve no other purpose than to take care of the uncomfortable or unfortunate duties that no one else wants to be responsible for.  Happily, both Anne and Amy come across people (and eventually husbands) who value their worth at more than the things they are willing to "conveniently" take care of.

Message Edited by MissJoMay on 05-20-2009 09:47 PM

[SarahJaylin]

Thank you for being so welcoming And no worries, I do read other books besides Austen, although she is my favorite! hehe Currently, I am working on a book entitled "Joop." But I would hate to veer off topic, so I will stick to discussing "Persuasion."

I agree completely that Anne and Amy are quite alike. Neither are really appreciated by their families, even though they do most of the work! The only difference between them was that they were raised in different social circles--Anne was quite wealthy and Amy was born into a debtor's prison. But other than that, they are quite similar! I find it interesting that both of their names begin with the letter "A." I don't know if Dickens did that on purpose or not, but it still intrigues me nonetheless.

I feel that the overarching theme in both stories is that regardless of what family one is born into, rich or poor, there is very little difference. People will be people; they will be cruel and take advantage of others.There were snobs in Amy's family as well as Anne's, after all. I admire both characters very much, and I don't blame Captain Wentworth and Mr. Clenam (I fear I am spelling that wrong!) for falling in love with them. 

Message Edited by SarahJaylin on 05-21-2009 08:29 AM

[DCGuy]

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SarahJaylin wrote:

I find it interesting that both of their names begin with the letter "A." I don't know if Dickens did that on purpose or not, but it still intrigues me nonetheless.

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I thought that Dickens using the letter "A" for both the main male and female character names for Little Dorrit may have been intentional.

As in real life, there are family situations where certain family members are "saddled" with certain duties and responsibilities.  If no one "picked up the ball", then serious consequences would develop.  For the situation of Amy, I considered that without the intervention of Arthur Clennam, that she had no future outside of the Marshalsea prison.  Staying with her father, marrying John Chivery, or living with her sister and brother were all "dead ends" as I saw them.  When Arthur ended up in that same prison, he realized that he could not allow her to spend her life there with him.  Arthur had told his mother that he felt that he was "imprisoned" during the half of his life spent working overseas and that he had "discharged his debt" to his parents and then resigned.  How ironic that he ended up in the Marshalsea prison and back to the same situation later.  Arthur might have never fallen in love with Amy had he not been imprisoned.  He might have well continued to be the "benevolent uncle" figure to her to the end.

P.S.  Please pardon the comments that diverge from the original topic of this forum. 

Message Edited by DCGuy on 05-21-2009 06:22 PM

[MissJoMay]

Amy is definitely more trapped physically, but I think Anne may feel more trapped and restricted because she is held in her place by family expectation and social convention (particularly when it comes to her original rejection of Wentworth).  Amy didn't know how small her world was until Arthur came into it and started to change it; Anne is intelligent enough to realize what she has lost by rejecting Wentworth, which is why she loses her "bloom."  Both women (Amy once she realizes it and Anne from the beginning) are made more miserable by their awareness of their situation.

[ConnieAnnKirk]

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SarahJaylin wrote:

Hello Everyone! I am new to the book club, so I just wanted to say hi

I am a huge Jane Austen fan, and in terms of my feelings toward Persuasion, I LOVE IT! In fact, it is one of my most favorite Jane Austen novels. There is something so gripping about the Anne and her relationship with Captain Wentworth. They never stop loving each other, no matter how long they may have been apart, and while some may find that a bit unrealistic, I find it quite beautiful. They TRULY loved each other and that is what allowed their love to survive as long as it did. Anne may have been treated like a servant throughout much of the novel, but her humility and compassion are two qualities that make her as wonderful a character as she is. And who doesn't love the letter that Captain Wentworth wrote to end towards the end of the novel? Sigh. It makes me want to swoon. Is swooning still allowed in today's world? hehe

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Welcome, Sarah!  I think swooning still happens--I heard the other day of a girl at the Cannes Film Festival who sank to her knees when hearthrob young actor, Robert Pattinson, appeared.  Ha. 

[janalee40]

I realize I am posting my reply a little late. However, I just finished reading Persuasion over the weekend.

I have now read Mansfield Park, Persuasion, and Pride and Prejudice. Of the three books, I would have to say that Persuasion is my least favorite of Austen's novels so far.

I agree with Everyman that Persuasion lacks the wit of both Pride and Prejudice and Mansfield Park, and I can see how Dulcinea says that this is the most mature novel of Austen as well.

Because of the maturity of Elizabeth and the storyline as a whole, I found Persuasion to be a bit dry and mundane in comparison to the other Jane Austen novels I have read. The immaturity of other novels seems to bring more wit and opportunity for growth and individual character development. Identifying with character needs and emotions was easier for me while reading both Mansfield Park and Pride and Prejudice. Overall, I was more emotionally involved with these two books in comparison to Persuasion. It seems to me that Jane put more in-depth character description and development in the other novels.

That being said, I would still recommend Persuasion to other readers. It is not that I disliked Persuasion at all, I just have a preference for other Jane Austen novels.

[dulcinea3]

Hi janalee40!  It's never too late!  I appreciate hearing your views on the the different Austen novels that you have read.  And I think we can agree that we like all of them.  We just have different favorites, for various very good reasons, and it's interesting to hear them.

[janalee40]

Does anyone have any thoughts on which Austen novel I should read next. I am between Sense and Sensibility and Northanger Abbey.

I appreciate your suggestions in advance, and hope this does not disrupt from the Persuasion topic.

[SarahJaylin]

I would recommend reading "Northanger Abbey" first. I believe that was Jane's first novel, and I enjoyed it immensely! The characters of Catherine and Henry are classic, and I love them both dearly. "Sense and Sensibility" is also good, but it is much longer

[SarahJaylin]

I think it's interesting how a novel has the ability to touch every reader in a completely different way. In my opinion, "Persuasion" was far from dry. It is, as you said, very mature, but that is one thing I admired about it. Anne was someone I could definitely relate to, not because I am wealthy and aristocratic, but because she was a real person. She suffered in her love life, with her family and with her society in general. She didn't quite fit, you could say, and that feeling of being outside the window looking in, is something I, and I would imagine, everyone can relate to. Anne was quite different from Elizabeth Bennet, in that Elizabeth had more spunk and was more vocal with her opinions, but Anne was just as strong in her own way. She was determined to be herself throughout the novel, and being true to oneself is not always the easiest of tasks, especially when you have a snobbish sister (Elizabeth) like Anne did, and a father who was too fond of mirrors. "Persuasion" may have been one of Austen's shorter novels, but it spoke volumes to me.

[dulcinea3]

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janalee40 wrote:

Does anyone have any thoughts on which Austen novel I should read next. I am between Sense and Sensibility and Northanger Abbey.

I appreciate your suggestions in advance, and hope this does not disrupt from the Persuasion topic.

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I also recommend Northanger Abbey (although I recommend both!).  It's shorter and its humor is more obvious; it makes me laugh a lot!

[ConnieAnnKirk]

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SarahJaylin wrote:
I think it's interesting how a novel has the ability to touch every reader in a completely different way. In my opinion, "Persuasion" was far from dry. It is, as you said, very mature, but that is one thing I admired about it. Anne was someone I could definitely relate to, not because I am wealthy and aristocratic, but because she was a real person. She suffered in her love life, with her family and with her society in general. She didn't quite fit, you could say, and that feeling of being outside the window looking in, is something I, and I would imagine, everyone can relate to. Anne was quite different from Elizabeth Bennet, in that Elizabeth had more spunk and was more vocal with her opinions, but Anne was just as strong in her own way. She was determined to be herself throughout the novel, and being true to oneself is not always the easiest of tasks, especially when you have a snobbish sister (Elizabeth) like Anne did, and a father who was too fond of mirrors. "Persuasion" may have been one of Austen's shorter novels, but it spoke volumes to me.

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Just popping by to welcome you to the club, Sarah, if I haven't already.  We appreciate you sharing your observations and hope to hear more of them!