DRACULA: Chapters 1-7 (no spoilers, please)

[marciliogq]

ConnieK, I refered to the space and the atmosphere of Dracula in previous posts as you remember. I think not only space but all of the elements on it are fundamentally important to the develop of the atmosphere and the plot. For example, when Harker describes Dracula like a lizard going down on the walls he describes it from a view he has through a window which gives him the view of an infinite hill, darkness, mist, the moonlight is the only light in a complete unknown room that he invades. The thought refering to the lamplight is still interesting in chapter 3. He says that the lamplight is the only fellow in a complete loneliness where he has only the Count as a mate. Don't you think all of these clues/elements are strongly important to create the scary tone of Dracula? Better, in what extent can we say all of the writings of Harker are not writings of a disturbed man? In what extent are they "true"or fruit of an imaginative mind?

[Peppermill]

For me, reading and feeling the settings of Dracula was a major part of experience of the novel -- they are more of the memories I retain than the plot itself. 

Yet, it is certainly a novel that has been translated into film and visuals in a variety of ways.  I am sure reams of paper and gallons of ink have been spent on the tradeoffs, but I also suspect that our "modern" access to film and photography impacts our patience with elaborate and lengthy descriptions of settings.

[dulcinea3]

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Taylor-Marie wrote:

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ConnieK wrote:

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dulcinea3 wrote:
I think that in this novel it certainly is necessary to have the description to set the scene.  By reading about the environment, it starts to creep us out even before the actions starts, making that all the more effective!

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Ha. Creeps us out is right! By the time Count Dracula starts crawling face-down on the outside of the building in the dark, I'm pretty much in creeped-out-ville!

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Stoker also posing the form in diary-form and letters also makes it creepier! Sometimes I felt like I was reading someone's actual diary. It definitely adds more suspense by making it more realistic and making you wonder if they will piece the puzzle together or not.

Message Edited by Taylor-Marie on 06-12-2009 05:41 PM

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Your mentioning a puzzle made me realize to what extent we, as the reader, piece a puzzle together, too.  The diaries of Jonathan, Mina, and Dr. Seward, as well as various letters between them and different characters, are really separate pieces that we have to fit together.  If any were missing, we would have an incomplete picture.  I think it's clever of Stoker to take the typical first-person narrative to another level, although of course it also has its roots in the epistolary novel.

[marciliogq]

As a reader I confess you that my fascination for the literary work is not related to its adaptation to the cinema. I think the best option is reading the book firstly. When we read we are the creator/directors of our own movie in mind. We imagine characters, their characteristics, the atmosphere of the book, space...

Even having seen the movie firstly I still prefer the book and its lengthy descriptions of settings which I think is capable of creating a scarier and more fascinating portrait of the characters and the space and gives us the possibility of details which are not seen (extracted or cut) by the director of the film. But is absolutely incontestable that the variety of "Draculas" and their thousands of faces makes our horror fiction universe better than if it was imagined by only one writer. That's the essence of the creation and the art: constinuously creating and recreating the same (or not) creatures.

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Peppermill wrote:

For me, reading and feeling the settings of Dracula was a major part of experience of the novel -- they are more of the memories I retain than the plot itself. 

Yet, it is certainly a novel that has been translated into film and visuals in a variety of ways.  I am sure reams of paper and gallons of ink have been spent on the tradeoffs, but I also suspect that our "modern" access to film and photography impacts our patience with elaborate and lengthy descriptions of settings.

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[willowy]

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dulcinea3 wrote:

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Taylor-Marie wrote:

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Stoker also posing the form in diary-form and letters also makes it creepier! Sometimes I felt like I was reading someone's actual diary. It definitely adds more suspense by making it more realistic and making you wonder if they will piece the puzzle together or not.

Message Edited by Taylor-Marie on 06-12-2009 05:41 PM

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Your mentioning a puzzle made me realize to what extent we, as the reader, piece a puzzle together, too.  The diaries of Jonathan, Mina, and Dr. Seward, as well as various letters between them and different characters, are really separate pieces that we have to fit together.  If any were missing, we would have an incomplete picture.  I think it's clever of Stoker to take the typical first-person narrative to another level, although of course it also has its roots in the epistolary novel.

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That is a really interesting point, this novel really does read like a puzzle. Each of the letters and diary entries reveal little pieces of information over time. We don't get all of the information in one letter, easy and up front, but rather all is revealed from various points of views. I agree, it is a clever idea because it really does engage the reader and actively involves us in putting it all together.

[ConnieAnnKirk]

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marciliogq wrote:
ConnieK, I refered to the space and the atmosphere of Dracula in previous posts as you remember. I think not only space but all of the elements on it are fundamentally important to the develop of the atmosphere and the plot. For example, when Harker describes Dracula like a lizard going down on the walls he describes it from a view he has through a window which gives him the view of an infinite hill, darkness, mist, the moonlight is the only light in a complete unknown room that he invades. The thought refering to the lamplight is still interesting in chapter 3. He says that the lamplight is the only fellow in a complete loneliness where he has only the Count as a mate. Don't you think all of these clues/elements are strongly important to create the scary tone of Dracula? Better, in what extent can we say all of the writings of Harker are not writings of a disturbed man? In what extent are they "true"or fruit of an imaginative mind?

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Indeed, indeed.  I was just asking whether audiences of today give the time to contemporary authors to develop atmosphere in this way.

[ConnieAnnKirk]

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marciliogq wrote:

As a reader I confess you that my fascination for the literary work is not related to its adaptation to the cinema. I think the best option is reading the book firstly. When we read we are the creator/directors of our own movie in mind. We imagine characters, their characteristics, the atmosphere of the book, space...

Even having seen the movie firstly I still prefer the book and its lengthy descriptions of settings which I think is capable of creating a scarier and more fascinating portrait of the characters and the space and gives us the possibility of details which are not seen (extracted or cut) by the director of the film. But is absolutely incontestable that the variety of "Draculas" and their thousands of faces makes our horror fiction universe better than if it was imagined by only one writer. That's the essence of the creation and the art: constinuously creating and recreating the same (or not) creatures.

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And the ways we as readers recreate the images in our minds from one reading to the next--that can't happen with film.  If Dracula has a blonde beehive parted down the middle with a long braid down his back in a film, it's gonna stay that way the next time one sees it.

[chad]

An author will often place an intro, a note or a forward which can affect how you view the rest of the novel.  So I thought I'd mention the beginning note, which I assume is Jonathan Harker:

"How these papers have been placed in sequence will be made manifest in the reading of them. All needless matters have been eliminated, so that a history almost at variance with the possibilities of later-day may stand forth as simple fact. There is no statement of past things wherein memory may err, for all the records chosen are exactly contemporary, given from the standpoints and within the range of knowledege of those who made them."

Chad

[chad]

Stoker states that facts are time-dependent. A fact is something that takes place in what we classify as "the contemporary." Facts that occur in the past can be distorted, forgotten or erased. And in the future a fact would be a "vision." 

Why bring this to our attention? Well, perhaps after reading Dracula, I might ask myself, "Who is influencing my contemporary world?" Am I influenced or have I fallen under the spell of those who control, or perhaps fallen to the will of Dracula himself? Am I part of the realm of living or the realm of the dead? Remember that facts are chosen to report.

Chad   

[Peppermill]

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Chad wrote:

An author will often place an intro, a note or a forward which can affect how you view the rest of the novel.  So I thought I'd mention the beginning note, which I assume is Jonathan Harker:

"How these papers have been placed in sequence will be made manifest in the reading of them. All needless matters have been eliminated, so that a history almost at variance with the possibilities of later-day may stand forth as simple fact. There is no statement of past things wherein memory may err, for all the records chosen are exactly contemporary, given from the standpoints and within the range of knowledege of those who made them."

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Chad wrote:

Stoker states that facts are time-dependent. A fact is something that takes place in what we classify as "the contemporary." Facts that occur in the past can be distorted, forgotten or erased. And in the future a fact would be a "vision." 

Why bring this to our attention? Well, perhaps after reading Dracula, I might ask myself, "Who is influencing my contemporary world?" Am I influenced or have I fallen under the spell of those who control, or perhaps fallen to the will of Dracula himself? Am I part of the realm of living or the realm of the dead? Remember that facts are chosen to report.

Chad   

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Thanks, Chad.

Incidentally, Chad, I think of you as one of the most astute readers of Dracula that I have encountered, so I am glad to find you posting here.   (Dracula is not a book I "like," so the views of others help me at least appreciate it.)

Pepper

Message Edited by Peppermill on 06-20-2009 11:44 PM

[chad]

Thanks Pepper!

The classic writers always give me a "much-needed" different perspective on the world. In "Dracula", for example, Stoker presents a reality that is ruled by the physical sciences (forces) and not economics. Or more succintly, he presents a reality that is ruled by the planet earth and its primary influences: the sun and the moon. And our language is also astronomical. A "fact" is like a planet with all of its associated forces. The fact that Jesus Christ once existed, for example, continues to impact our lives, or make waves if you will, regardless of whether we are religious or not. As we move away from the time of JC's existence, belief deviates and and becomes weaker, like a drop in the water. But Christianity is still a strong religion despite several sects (Protestant, Catholic etc. etc.).

Chad  

PS- Does nuclear weaponry maintain our economic order?

Message Edited by chad on 06-21-2009 09:34 PM

[GabryTK]

Okay - I am a few years late on this particular thread, but I have a question.  Does Stoker have some particular meaning with the number three?  Dante certainly did in The Comedy, and Mozart did in "The Magic Flute"  - - in Dracula's first several chapters, the number 'three' turns up several times, for example:

a.  The three female vampires/witches

b.  Dracula asks Jonathan to write three letters

c.  Lucy receives three marriage proposals

d.  As Mina is writing in her journal the first time, she can hear three men talking.

And, while I have to verify, it seems to me that the coach stopped three times between Borgo Pass and the castle. 

Is there something behind the three? Or am I just seeing what I imagine?  (The human mind is very good at picking out patterns, even when the patters do not exist).

[carusmm]

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GabryTK wrote:

Okay - I am a few years late on this particular thread, but I have a question.  Does Stoker have some particular meaning with the number three?  Dante certainly did in The Comedy, and Mozart did in "The Magic Flute"  - - in Dracula's first several chapters, the number 'three' turns up several times, for example:

a.  The three female vampires/witches

b.  Dracula asks Jonathan to write three letters

c.  Lucy receives three marriage proposals

d.  As Mina is writing in her journal the first time, she can hear three men talking.

And, while I have to verify, it seems to me that the coach stopped three times between Borgo Pass and the castle. 

Is there something behind the three? Or am I just seeing what I imagine?  (The human mind is very good at picking out patterns, even when the patters do not exist).

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It is Masonic for sure.

[TiggerBear]

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GabryTK wrote:

Okay - I am a few years late on this particular thread, but I have a question.  Does Stoker have some particular meaning with the number three?  Dante certainly did in The Comedy, and Mozart did in "The Magic Flute"  - - in Dracula's first several chapters, the number 'three' turns up several times, for example:

a.  The three female vampires/witches

b.  Dracula asks Jonathan to write three letters

c.  Lucy receives three marriage proposals

d.  As Mina is writing in her journal the first time, she can hear three men talking.

And, while I have to verify, it seems to me that the coach stopped three times between Borgo Pass and the castle. 

Is there something behind the three? Or am I just seeing what I imagine?  (The human mind is very good at picking out patterns, even when the patters do not exist).

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YES.

[carusmm]

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TiggerBear wrote:

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GabryTK wrote:

Okay - I am a few years late on this particular thread, but I have a question.  Does Stoker have some particular meaning with the number three?  Dante certainly did in The Comedy, and Mozart did in "The Magic Flute"  - - in Dracula's first several chapters, the number 'three' turns up several times, for example:

a.  The three female vampires/witches

b.  Dracula asks Jonathan to write three letters

c.  Lucy receives three marriage proposals

d.  As Mina is writing in her journal the first time, she can hear three men talking.

And, while I have to verify, it seems to me that the coach stopped three times between Borgo Pass and the castle. 

Is there something behind the three? Or am I just seeing what I imagine?  (The human mind is very good at picking out patterns, even when the patters do not exist).

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YES.

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Yes indeed but GabryTK did tell an interesting story which is more than I could say for Stoker.

[carusmm]

Three is the number of those who do holy work; Two is the number of those who do lover's work; One is the number of those who do perfect evil or perfect good.

From the notes of a monk of the Order of St. Oco; his name unknown (fictionalised).

From Abarat by Clive Barker.

There may be a pattern, GabryTK, but it is really hard to tell.