DRACULA by Bram Stoker (spoilers, ok)

[ConnieAnnKirk]

I can feel it in the club--folks wanting to get started talking about this one.  So, here's our thread to start it off.

If you'd like a chapter section-by-section set of threads for Dracula, readers--could you let me know by replying here over the weekend?  I'd be glad to set them up for us if you'd like.

For now, please know that this thread may contain spoilers for those who have not yet finished the book.

[ChrisJT]

Connie, your idea of setting up separate threads for each of the 27 chapters (and, perhaps, the preface?) sounds excellent!  That will allow us to organize the discussion in a meaningful way, and will allow those reading at different rates to keep up-to-date with the discussion.  If 27 threads are too many, maybe we could have clumps for different sets of chapters?

I'm looking forward to Monday when we begin discussing this book!  Thanks!

[ConnieAnnKirk]

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ChrisJT wrote:

Connie, your idea of setting up separate threads for each of the 27 chapters (and, perhaps, the preface?) sounds excellent!  That will allow us to organize the discussion in a meaningful way, and will allow those reading at different rates to keep up-to-date with the discussion.  If 27 threads are too many, maybe we could have clumps for different sets of chapters?

I'm looking forward to Monday when we begin discussing this book!  Thanks!

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What we have done in the past, Chris, is divide the book into 4 parts--1 part per week for the 4 weeks of the month we discuss it.  Since you've put in a bid for this, I'll go ahead and set it up.  Others may like it as well.

Thanks!

[ConnieAnnKirk]

Just thought I'd pass along that I used a gift card to purchase The New Annotated Dracula, and I am impressed with how handsome a volume it is!  And big!  The annotations are slowing down my re-read, but I'm enjoying it.  It has an introduction by Neil Gaiman, for those who are fans of his.

Thanks again to our club member who recommended it!

I should mention that I'm reading this larger volume in conjunction with our paperback, B&N edition.  The B&N edition also has notes, by the way, just not as many or quite as extensive as the annotated edition.

The New Annotated Dracula 

Message Edited by ConnieK on 06-04-2009 05:45 PM

[ConnieAnnKirk]

Our B&N Classics edition asks this question (for those who have read the novel previously, or who have finished it this go-round):

"Dracula has never been out of print, and more movies have been derived from Dracula than from any other novel.  To what do you attribute this continuous popularity?  The story, in one form or another, has been popular in many countries over a long period of time.  Does that suggest that it answers some need that is simply human rather than social or historical?" (p. 413).

What do you think?

[DCGuy]

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ConnieK wrote:

Our B&N Classics edition asks this question (for those who have read the novel previously, or who have finished it this go-round):

"Dracula has never been out of print, and more movies have been derived from Dracula than from any other novel.  To what do you attribute this continuous popularity?  The story, in one form or another, has been popular in many countries over a long period of time.  Does that suggest that it answers some need that is simply human rather than social or historical?" (p. 413).

What do you think?

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I think it is a desire for any man to have the ability to control and seduce women.  That power would be something that I might try to strive for.  LOL 

[Taylor-Marie]

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ConnieK wrote:

Our B&N Classics edition asks this question (for those who have read the novel previously, or who have finished it this go-round):

"Dracula has never been out of print, and more movies have been derived from Dracula than from any other novel.  To what do you attribute this continuous popularity?  The story, in one form or another, has been popular in many countries over a long period of time.  Does that suggest that it answers some need that is simply human rather than social or historical?" (p. 413).

What do you think?

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I like DCGuy's answer but I also believe that it could also be because of some of the stuff that Stoker wrote about which, in his time, challenged some of the things in society, such as the vampire women who were the exact opposite of what women were suppose to be.

And so far almost everyone I met sometimes like to go against what society says every now or then or at least fantasize about it.

Message Edited by Taylor-Marie on 06-12-2009 05:36 PM

[DCGuy]

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Taylor-Marie wrote:

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ConnieK wrote:

Our B&N Classics edition asks this question (for those who have read the novel previously, or who have finished it this go-round):

"Dracula has never been out of print, and more movies have been derived from Dracula than from any other novel.  To what do you attribute this continuous popularity?  The story, in one form or another, has been popular in many countries over a long period of time.  Does that suggest that it answers some need that is simply human rather than social or historical?" (p. 413).

What do you think?

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I like DCGuy's answer but I also believe that it could also be because of some of the stuff that Stoker wrote about which, in his time, challenged some of the things in society, such as the vampire women who were the exact opposite of what women were suppose to be.

And so far almost everyone I met sometimes like to go against what society says every now or then or at least fantasize about it.

Message Edited by Taylor-Marie on 06-12-2009 05:36 PM

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Agreed.  That women could be sensuous and seductive creatures makes for a theme that would be popular for a long time.

[willowy]

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ConnieK wrote:

Our B&N Classics edition asks this question (for those who have read the novel previously, or who have finished it this go-round):

"Dracula has never been out of print, and more movies have been derived from Dracula than from any other novel.  To what do you attribute this continuous popularity?  The story, in one form or another, has been popular in many countries over a long period of time.  Does that suggest that it answers some need that is simply human rather than social or historical?" (p. 413).

What do you think?

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There are probably many reasons why a novel like this would have lasting popularity.  I think most people enjoy the feeling of being frightened and pushed to their limits, maybe that is why horror and mystery are such popular genres! I agree with Taylor-Marie and DCGuy, repressed Victorian women acting out against the ideas of society would make for a popular theme. But I think another reason for its popularity may come from our hope/fear that the dead may not really be dead and can be among us. So in that way maybe it is a need that is simply human, because I think it is a very human thought to wonder about death and the afterlife.

[ConnieAnnKirk]

Here's a question to consider from the B&N edition:

"Lucy seems more susceptible to Dracula than Mina.  What is it in Lucy that makes her more susceptible; what in Mina makes her more resistant?" (413).

[Taylor-Marie]

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ConnieK wrote:

Here's a question to consider from the B&N edition:

"Lucy seems more susceptible to Dracula than Mina.  What is it in Lucy that makes her more susceptible; what in Mina makes her more resistant?" (413).

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I think that Lucy is more susceptible to Dracula because of her openness to sexuality or her own desires. Lucy is known for her beauty and in one of the letters that she writes to Mina about her three suitors she said “Why can't they let a girl marry three men, or as many as want her, and save all this trouble?” (pg 66) From that letter we can see that she is more sexually open than Mina who as I've said before represents the perfect Victorian woman. I don't remember once of Mina talking about anything like Lucy did but only of her love for Jonathan.

[dulcinea3]

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ConnieK wrote:

Here's a question to consider from the B&N edition:

"Lucy seems more susceptible to Dracula than Mina.  What is it in Lucy that makes her more susceptible; what in Mina makes her more resistant?" (413).

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I like Taylor-Marie's answer, which is from an emotional perspective.  I'm going to approach it from a different angle.  I think it may have something to do with Lucy and Mina's relative psychic susceptibility while asleep.  I believe that Lucy had had a tendency to sleepwalk even before Dracula came to the vicinity.  This may have made her somehow open for Dracula to enter her mind and influence her.  Mina appeared to have the strength to struggle against Dracula's influence even while she slept.  Dracula was more powerful and had the edge, so she would eventually lose the battle, but she was able to hang on much longer.

[DCGuy]

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ConnieK wrote:

Here's a question to consider from the B&N edition:

"Lucy seems more susceptible to Dracula than Mina.  What is it in Lucy that makes her more susceptible; what in Mina makes her more resistant?" (413).

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To answer this from a biological standpoint, maybe Lucy's blood type was more preferable to Dracula than Mina's?    Or maybe Lucy was the type that was very flirtatious and would be attracted to mysterious men? 

[Codeman85]

I just finished the book and I had a few questions to ask everyone.  I figured I should ask here because spoilers are involved.

1)  I'm really confused early in the book concerning the blue flames off in the distance.  The Count stopped the carriage to check out the flames and seemed to be communicating with them or something.  Are we to assume that these flames were the 3 women vampires or something else?  The footnote mentions something about Will'o'Wisp where the flames represent decaying matter.  Any information on this stuff would be greatly appreciated.

2) I loved the book, but was anybody let down by the uneventful death of Quincey?

[willowy]

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Codeman85 wrote:

I just finished the book and I had a few questions to ask everyone.  I figured I should ask here because spoilers are involved.

1)  I'm really confused early in the book concerning the blue flames off in the distance.  The Count stopped the carriage to check out the flames and seemed to be communicating with them or something.  Are we to assume that these flames were the 3 women vampires or something else?  The footnote mentions something about Will'o'Wisp where the flames represent decaying matter.  Any information on this stuff would be greatly appreciated.

2) I loved the book, but was anybody let down by the uneventful death of Quincey?

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I do agree with the second part of your comment, the ending kinda felt abrupt to me. Only because the buildup (though it did create nice tension) lasted for chapters with them chasing Dracula. Then the actually confrontation was only a couple of pages and happened so fast! I actually had to read it a couple of times to read everything that was jam-packed in there. I did enjoy the a race against time aspect at the end, with the setting sun happening and them having to destroy dracula before he regained full power. Even though the end was a bit fast I did enjoy it.

[dulcinea3]

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willowy wrote:
I do agree with the second part of your comment, the ending kinda felt abrupt to me. Only because the buildup (though it did create nice tension) lasted for chapters with them chasing Dracula. Then the actually confrontation was only a couple of pages and happened so fast! I actually had to read it a couple of times to read everything that was jam-packed in there. I did enjoy the a race against time aspect at the end, with the setting sun happening and them having to destroy dracula before he regained full power. Even though the end was a bit fast I did enjoy it.

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I agree with the build-up towards the end.  It just grew and grew in anticipation and excitement, with the three groups of hunters separating and then coming together again in such a climax.  I really enjoyed it.

I was sorry that Quincey died, because I liked him very much.  He was such a steadfast and unselfish friend.  I didn't really find his death anti-climactic because I thought the scene where he was mortally wounded was really the climax of the novel.  I suppose that someone had to die, or it would have been more unbelievable, and although I suppose any of them would have died for Mina at that point, Quincey had a very noble death, declaring that he was glad to die for such a cause.

Mr. Morris, who had sunk to the ground, leaned on his elbow, holding his hand pressed to his side. The blood still gushed through his fingers. I flew to him, for the Holy circle did not now keep me back; so did the two doctors. Jonathan knelt behind him and the wounded man laid back his head on his shoulder. With a sigh he took, with a feeble effort, my hand in that of his own which was unstained.

He must have seen the anguish of my heart in my face, for he smiled at me and said, "I am only too happy to have been of service! Oh, God!" he cried suddenly, struggling to a sitting posture and pointing to me. "It was worth for this to die! Look! Look!"

The sun was now right down upon the mountain top, and the red gleams fell upon my face, so that it was bathed in rosy light. With one impulse the men sank on their knees and a deep and earnest "Amen" broke from all as their eyes followed the pointing of his finger.

The dying man spoke, "Now God be thanked that all has not been in vain! See! The snow is not more stainless than her forehead! The curse has passed away!"

And, to our bitter grief, with a smile and in silence, he died, a gallant gentleman.

[Taylor-Marie]

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Codeman85 wrote:

I just finished the book and I had a few questions to ask everyone.  I figured I should ask here because spoilers are involved.

1)  I'm really confused early in the book concerning the blue flames off in the distance.  The Count stopped the carriage to check out the flames and seemed to be communicating with them or something.  Are we to assume that these flames were the 3 women vampires or something else?  The footnote mentions something about Will'o'Wisp where the flames represent decaying matter.  Any information on this stuff would be greatly appreciated.

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There's a lot of folklore around the will-o'the-wisp that matches with the story of Dracula. I don't think it pertains to the three women vampires but it stands for more as a clue that something is wrong and also as foreshadowing.

It provides as a clue that the driver of the coach, who we know is the Count, isn't human because Jonathan claims that he could see the flames through the driver's body, which of course just simply doesn't happen with normal humans.

I also say it can be used as foreshadowing because of the folklore behind the will-o'-the-wisp. This is from mysteriousbritain.co.uk:

There are various explanations for the Will o' the Wisps, the most general being that they are malevolent spirits either of the dead or non-human intelligence. They have a mischievous and often malevolent nature, luring unwary travellers into dangerous situations.

And obviously, this happens to Jonathan: a perfectly nice naïve traveler that's led astray into a very dangerous situation: being trapped inside the home of a vampire, which is a malevolent dead/nonhuman spirit.

Message Edited by Taylor-Marie on 06-26-2009 07:43 PM

[Codeman85]

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Taylor-Marie wrote:

There's a lot of folklore around the will-o'the-wisp that matches with the story of Dracula. I don't think it pertains to the three women vampires but it stands for more as a clue that something is wrong and also as foreshadowing.

It provides as a clue that the driver of the coach, who we know is the Count, isn't human because Jonathan claims that he could see the flames through the driver's body, which of course just simply doesn't happen with normal humans.

I also say it can be used as foreshadowing because of the folklore behind the will-o'-the-wisp. This is from mysteriousbritain.co.uk:

There are various explanations for the Will o' the Wisps, the most general being that they are malevolent spirits either of the dead or non-human intelligence. They have a mischievous and often malevolent nature, luring unwary travellers into dangerous situations.

And obviously, this happens to Jonathan: a perfectly nice naïve traveler that's led astray into a very dangerous situation: being trapped inside the home of a vampire, which is a malevolent dead/nonhuman spirit.

Message Edited by Taylor-Marie on 06-26-2009 07:43 PM

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Thanks a lot for the info!  Interesting stuff.

[chad]

I thought I'd post one more topic after people may have finished reading becuase "Dracula" seems to be a horror novel and so much more. Trancendentalism is the 1800's solution to environmentalism, I think, and Stoker mentions this in "Dracula." But at one point in the story ( I think it may have been a torch) Stoker mentioned that the light only seemed to make the "dark side darker." So, if we use religion as an example, does a stronger belief in God create a stronger belief in the devil? Or perhaps if we ask the more secular and environmental question: Is the the fact that approximately half the world is cloaked in light and the other half in darkness the only "environmental" balance of the world- the only balance we should ever be concerned about, or the only balance we can ever achieve?

Chad

[chad]

And my absolutely last comment on Dracula (maybe I'll save the rest for Halloween): Night and Day are "in balance" with the exception of the the light of the Moon. The moon, especially some of the full moons in Florida, can be so bright that the light from the moon can create what we call "moonshadow" (also a popular Cat Steven's song), where natural objects, like trees, actually cast shadows on the ground by the light of the moon. Popular horror stories often contain full moons which have "supernatural effects." A man bitten by a werewolf might turn into a werewolf by the light of the full moon for example.

But for the more practical and scientifically-minded: some scientists would argue that we would not have evolved as human beings if it were the moon's influence. Or maybe the moon's presence actually upsets the balance between night and day, and there is not what we consider to be balance in Nature or environmental balance. (?)

Well, until next time, maybe I'll just blame it on the moon.... 

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 08-17-2009 12:52 AM