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GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-22-2009 04:05 PM
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-22-2009 04:33 PM
"I am a part of everything that I have read."
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-22-2009 04:46 PM
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-23-2009 11:31 AM
At last, sunshine breaks through the dark clouds that followed the Joads since they left Oklahoma.
Life in the Weedpatch government camp turns the Joads' luck around. For the first time since leaving Oklahoma, the family finds some security. Tom finds a job, the camp manager treats Ma with dignity.
She says, "...An' now I ain't ashamed. These folks is our folks... An' that manager, he come an' set an' drank coffee, an' he says, 'How you getting' on, Mrs Joad'...
"Why, I feel like people again." Ma is treated like a human being.
It occurred to me that the unfair treatment of the migrants not only create hardships for them; but it also diminishes them as human beings. The unjust behavior of others has deeper repercussions than mere hardship. More importantly, it can make us lose our dignity.
Here's a link about the government sponsored Weedpatch Camp:
http://www.weedpatchcamp.com/Camp/camp.htm
"I am a part of everything that I have read."
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-23-2009 11:51 AM
I'm amazed by the catalyst role of the Weedpatch Camp, the government-sponsored facility where the migrants govern themselves; where committees make sure the grounds remain clean; that the toilets and showers work.
I see that Steinbeck uses the camp to illustrates one of his main themes: that people find their greatest strengths in numbers.
It's come up again and again.
In the early chapters, Jim Casy, the preacher, talks about us all being small souls. But together, we all form one big soul. "Says he foun' he jus' got a little piece of a great big soul... his little piece of a soul wasn't no good 'less it was with the rest, an' was whole."
Ma tells Rose of Sharon, "You're jest one person, an' they's a lot of other folks."
The novel sugggests over and over again, that the needs of the group supersedes the needs of the individual.
I can see how this theme takes center stage in these final chapters.
"I am a part of everything that I have read."
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-23-2009 01:36 PM
"The novel sugggests over and over again, that the needs of the group supersedes the needs of the individual."
Versus that the needs of the individual can only be served by utilizing the power of the group?
IBIS wrote:I'm amazed by the catalyst role of the Weedpatch Camp, the government-sponsored facility where the migrants govern themselves; where committees make sure the grounds remain clean; that the toilets and showers work.
I see that Steinbeck uses the camp to illustrates one of his main themes: that people find their greatest strengths in numbers.
It's come up again and again.
In the early chapters, Jim Casy, the preacher, talks about us all being small souls. But together, we all form one big soul. "Says he foun' he jus' got a little piece of a great big soul... his little piece of a soul wasn't no good 'less it was with the rest, an' was whole."
Ma tells Rose of Sharon, "You're jest one person, an' they's a lot of other folks."
The novel sugggests over and over again, that the needs of the group supersedes the needs of the individual.
I can see how this theme takes center stage in these final chapters.
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-23-2009 02:05 PM - edited 07-23-2009 02:08 PM
I liked Chapter 23, even though parts are melancholy and sad:
"And always, if he had a little money, a man could get drunk. The hard edges gone, and the warmth. Then there was no loneliness, for a man could people his brain with friends, and he could find his enemies and destroy them. . . . No the stars are close and dear and I have joined the brotherhood of the worlds. And everything's holy everything, even me.
"A harmonica is easy to carry. Take it out of your hip pocket, knock it against your palm to shake out the dirt and pocket fuzz and bits of tobacco. Now it's ready. . . .
"A guitar is more precious. Must learn this thing. Fingers of the left hand must have callus caps. Thumb of the right hand a horn of callus. Stretch the left-hand fingers, stretch them like a spider's legs to get the hard pads on the frets.
". . . . Play her in the evening, an' they's a harmonica player in the nex' tent. Makes it pretty nice together.
"The fiddle is rare, hard to learn.
". . . . Harsh ol' bastard, ain't she? Wanta dance? I'll rub up the bow with plenty rosin. Man! Then she'll squawk. Hear her a mile.
"These three in the evening, harmonica and fiddle and guitar. Playing a reel and tapping out the tune, and the big deep strings of the guitar bearing like a heart, and the harmonica's sharp chords and the skirl and squeal of the fiddle. People have to move close. They can't help it. . . ."
"Men and women, dripping, clothes sticking tight, watched; then gurgling and sloshing in their shoes they walked back to the camp, to the tents, and they talked softly in wonder: ‘We been saved,' they said. ‘We're washed white as snow. We won't never sin again. . . .'
"Wisht I knowed what all the sins was, so I could do 'em.
"The migrant people looked humbly for pleasure on the roads."
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-23-2009 02:25 PM
Thanks P. Sad yes but the sadness was relieved by the musical interludes and by the poetry which described them. I love Steinbeck's almost stream of consciousness style of writing. I empathised too because in my 'fambly' we have a harmonica, guitar and fiddle player who have played many a reel
. I particularly liked the description of the ease of carrying and playing a harmonica because in my youth hostelling days I always had one in my pocket, ready to knock against my palm, shake out the dirt and begin....
Peppermill wrote:I liked Chapter 23, even though parts are melancholy and sad:
"And always, if he had a little money, a man could get drunk. The hard edges gone, and the warmth. Then there was no loneliness, for a man could people his brain with friends, and he could find his enemies and destroy them. . . . No the stars are close and dear and I have joined the brotherhood of the worlds. And everything's holy everything, even me.
"A harmonica is easy to carry. Take it out of your hip pocket, knock it against your palm to shake out the dirt and pocket fuzz and bits of tobacco. Now it's ready. . . .
"A guitar is more precious. Must learn this thing. Fingers of the left hand must have callus caps. Thumb of the right hand a horn of callus. Stretch the left-hand fingers, stretch them like a spider's legs to get the hard pads on the frets.
". . . . Play her in the evening, an' they's a harmonica player in the nex' tent. Makes it pretty nice together.
"The fiddle is rare, hard to learn.
". . . . Harsh ol' bastard, ain't she? Wanta dance? I'll rub up the bow with plenty rosin. Man! Then she'll squawk. Hear her a mile.
"These three in the evening, harmonica and fiddle and guitar. Playing a reel and tapping out the tune, and the big deep strings of the guitar bearing like a heart, and the harmonica's sharp chords and the skirl and squeal of the fiddle. People have to move close. They can't help it. . . ."
"Men and women, dripping, clothes sticking tight, watched; then gurgling and sloshing in their shoes they walked back to the camp, to the tents, and they talked softly in wonder: ‘We been saved,' they said. ‘We're washed white as snow. We won't never sin again. . . .'
"Wisht I knowed what all the sins was, so I could do 'em.
"The migrant people looked humbly for pleasure on the roads."
Message Edited by Peppermill on 07-23-2009 02:08 PM
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-23-2009 03:38 PM
I had to laugh when I came across this:
"The fiddle is rare, hard to learn.
". . . . Harsh ol' bastard, ain't she? Wanta dance? I'll rub up the bow with plenty rosin. Man! Then she'll squawk. Hear her a mile.
I laughed because I actually found the violin a lot easier than a harmonica or a guitar.
(NOTE: I'm a violinist with our symphony orchestra here in Boston.)
"I am a part of everything that I have read."
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-27-2009 12:25 PM - edited 07-27-2009 12:45 PM
This isn't reassuring at all, but your comment about the atrocious treatment of the Joads and other migrants reminds me of Night again. The worse people are treated, the worse they feel, and the crueler they become, even toward each other.
IBIS wrote:At last, sunshine breaks through the dark clouds that followed the Joads since they left Oklahoma.
Life in the Weedpatch government camp turns the Joads' luck around. For the first time since leaving Oklahoma, the family finds some security. Tom finds a job, the camp manager treats Ma with dignity.
She says, "...An' now I ain't ashamed. These folks is our folks... An' that manager, he come an' set an' drank coffee, an' he says, 'How you getting' on, Mrs Joad'...
"Why, I feel like people again." Ma is treated like a human being.
It occurred to me that the unfair treatment of the migrants not only create hardships for them; but it also diminishes them as human beings. The unjust behavior of others has deeper repercussions than mere hardship. More importantly, it can make us lose our dignity.
Here's a link about the government sponsored Weedpatch Camp:
http://www.weedpatchcamp.com/Camp/camp.htm
-- Bilbo Baggins before well nigh insulting doubtful Boromir
Little people rule!
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-27-2009 12:31 PM - edited 07-27-2009 12:39 PM
Both seem valid. At least in the migrants' situation, hardly anyone got what they asked without a hundred other people with guns asking the same thing. Perhaps it's versus straightforward individualism, which Americans always preach but often leads to misery. Anyone trying to do something for themselves, alone (e.g. Connie) loses out and isn't strong enough to keep going.
Peppermill wrote:"The novel sugggests over and over again, that the needs of the group supersedes the needs of the individual."
Versus that the needs of the individual can only be served by utilizing the power of the group?
__________________________________________________
___________
-- Bilbo Baggins before well nigh insulting doubtful Boromir
Little people rule!
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-27-2009 12:43 PM
Hope you are feeling better.
I was also sick for a week besides getting my book late, I will now be about a month behind in my reading. But I am determined to read "The Grapes of Wrath" now that (knock wood) everthing is back on track.
I have read a lot of the discussions that have been posted. They made the desire for reading the book even stronger. Thank you.
Bluemoon 147
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-27-2009 01:33 PM
There’s a song by Bruce Springsteen, "The Ghost of Tom Joad," that’s based on Grapes of Wrath, though it’s set in modern times (to be found at http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=1057). This stanza is taken partially from Tom’s farewell to Ma in Chapter 27:
"Now Tom said; ‘Ma, whenever ya see a cop beatin' a guy, / wherever a hungry new born baby cries, / wherever there's a fight against the blood and hatred in the air, / look for me Ma, / I'll be there. / Wherever somebody's srtugglin' for a place to stand, / for a decent job or a helpin' hand, / wherever somebody is strugglin' to be free, / look in their eyes, Ma, /you'll see me.’ "
I got an amazing live version of it a month ago (his live performances are almost always better than his originals). It almost made me cry every time, and I hadn’t even read the book, when I found it. Maybe it’s because of how little hope is in it – yes, every step forward is never completely taken back, yet an inch becoming a centimeter, and in front a hundred miles. The world around us changes, but people rarely do. The same freakin’ banks that destroyed so many people 70 years ago is still alive, sucking the life out of the weak and unassuming. Will it still be here when I’m dead? Will there still be wars fought for freedom that only robs a country of its fighting, desperate citizens, its buildings, its children, its blood?
Tom will always be here. That’s human kind, for ya. We segregate, we fight, we want to win, because losing spells a terrible death. Can it ever end, or does evolution not work that way?
The readers might not get many glimpses into the characters’ minds, but their plight touched me deeper than most I’ve ever read. Do books make any of you cry? This one took something out of me when I finished it, and I lay in bed on top of my sheets and cried a little for the Joads and everyone whose stories are not told but matter more than anything I’ve ever had to live through. I feel a little like Uncle John, guilty about things not done.
Perhaps I’m just an angry teenager, but please don’t judge me too harshly.
-- Bilbo Baggins before well nigh insulting doubtful Boromir
Little people rule!
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-27-2009 02:18 PM
Dinosaur Bess, I think your emotional reaction to "Grapes of Wrath" is wonderful. It explains some reasons to me why it's a popular classic.
I read it with my daughter, Sara, (who's 24) and she too found it a very emotional story. She kept saying, "Oh, those poor poor people!" The pictures of the farmers in the Depression and the camps made her cry too.
She told me about the Bruce Springsteen song. As well as the Arlo Guthrie one. I put the lyrics on another thread in this club. They're wonderful to listen to.
Thank you for sharing your insights with us.
DinosaurBess wrote:There’s a song by Bruce Springsteen, "The Ghost of Tom Joad," that’s based on Grapes of Wrath, though it’s set in modern times (to be found at http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=1057). This stanza is taken partially from Tom’s farewell to Ma in Chapter 27:
"Now Tom said; ‘Ma, whenever ya see a cop beatin' a guy, / wherever a hungry new born baby cries, / wherever there's a fight against the blood and hatred in the air, / look for me Ma, / I'll be there. / Wherever somebody's srtugglin' for a place to stand, / for a decent job or a helpin' hand, / wherever somebody is strugglin' to be free, / look in their eyes, Ma, /you'll see me.’ "
I got an amazing live version of it a month ago (his live performances are almost always better than his originals). It almost made me cry every time, and I hadn’t even read the book, when I found it. Maybe it’s because of how little hope is in it – yes, every step forward is never completely taken back, yet an inch becoming a centimeter, and in front a hundred miles. The world around us changes, but people rarely do. The same freakin’ banks that destroyed so many people 70 years ago is still alive, sucking the life out of the weak and unassuming. Will it still be here when I’m dead? Will there still be wars fought for freedom that only robs a country of its fighting, desperate citizens, its buildings, its children, its blood?
Tom will always be here. That’s human kind, for ya. We segregate, we fight, we want to win, because losing spells a terrible death. Can it ever end, or does evolution not work that way?
The readers might not get many glimpses into the characters’ minds, but their plight touched me deeper than most I’ve ever read. Do books make any of you cry? This one took something out of me when I finished it, and I lay in bed on top of my sheets and cried a little for the Joads and everyone whose stories are not told but matter more than anything I’ve ever had to live through. I feel a little like Uncle John, guilty about things not done.
Perhaps I’m just an angry teenager, but please don’t judge me too harshly.
"I am a part of everything that I have read."
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-27-2009 04:35 PM
DinosaurBess wrote:There’s a song by Bruce Springsteen, "The Ghost of Tom Joad," that’s based on Grapes of Wrath, though it’s set in modern times (to be found at http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=1057). This stanza is taken partially from Tom’s farewell to Ma in Chapter 27:
"Now Tom said; ‘Ma, whenever ya see a cop beatin' a guy, / wherever a hungry new born baby cries, / wherever there's a fight against the blood and hatred in the air, / look for me Ma, / I'll be there. / Wherever somebody's srtugglin' for a place to stand, / for a decent job or a helpin' hand, / wherever somebody is strugglin' to be free, / look in their eyes, Ma, /you'll see me.’ "
I got an amazing live version of it a month ago (his live performances are almost always better than his originals). It almost made me cry every time, and I hadn’t even read the book, when I found it. Maybe it’s because of how little hope is in it – yes, every step forward is never completely taken back, yet an inch becoming a centimeter, and in front a hundred miles. The world around us changes, but people rarely do. The same freakin’ banks that destroyed so many people 70 years ago is still alive, sucking the life out of the weak and unassuming. Will it still be here when I’m dead? Will there still be wars fought for freedom that only robs a country of its fighting, desperate citizens, its buildings, its children, its blood?
Tom will always be here. That’s human kind, for ya. We segregate, we fight, we want to win, because losing spells a terrible death. Can it ever end, or does evolution not work that way?
The readers might not get many glimpses into the characters’ minds, but their plight touched me deeper than most I’ve ever read. Do books make any of you cry? This one took something out of me when I finished it, and I lay in bed on top of my sheets and cried a little for the Joads and everyone whose stories are not told but matter more than anything I’ve ever had to live through. I feel a little like Uncle John, guilty about things not done.
Perhaps I’m just an angry teenager, but please don’t judge me too harshly.
DinosaurBess--Oh, yes; we all (I think) cry while reading books that move us. Thanks so much for sharing your honest and heartfelt response to this novel.
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-28-2009 04:26 AM
Ah but you can't put a violin in your pocket Ibis!
One of my in-laws is a well known violinist in a quartet here and he would like to be able to 'fiddle' better. As a family we play a lot of folk music for folk dancing and he regrets that he cannot join in the fun because of his classical training. It rather looks as if one of our grand-daughters, who is learning the violin, is more inclined to 'fiddle' because she gets more exposure to folk music than to classical. Do you 'fiddle'?
IBIS wrote:I had to laugh when I came across this:
"The fiddle is rare, hard to learn.
". . . . Harsh ol' bastard, ain't she? Wanta dance? I'll rub up the bow with plenty rosin. Man! Then she'll squawk. Hear her a mile.
I laughed because I actually found the violin a lot easier than a harmonica or a guitar.
(NOTE: I'm a violinist with our symphony orchestra here in Boston.)
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-28-2009 11:12 AM
I'm in the same boat as your violinist in-law. My training is heavily classical. I would love to, but I cannot fiddle. (And unfortunately they don't make inflatable or foldable violins!)
My daughter is training to become a pianist... she loves jazz and is freer and innovative.
WW play informal duets together... including popular tunes like the Bruce Springsteen and Arlo Guthrie songs about the Grapes of Wrath.
Choisya wrote:Ah but you can't put a violin in your pocket Ibis!
One of my in-laws is a well known violinist in a quartet here and he would like to be able to 'fiddle' better. As a family we play a lot of folk music for folk dancing and he regrets that he cannot join in the fun because of his classical training. It rather looks as if one of our grand-daughters, who is learning the violin, is more inclined to 'fiddle' because she gets more exposure to folk music than to classical. Do you 'fiddle'?
IBIS wrote:I had to laugh when I came across this:
"The fiddle is rare, hard to learn.
". . . . Harsh ol' bastard, ain't she? Wanta dance? I'll rub up the bow with plenty rosin. Man! Then she'll squawk. Hear her a mile.
I laughed because I actually found the violin a lot easier than a harmonica or a guitar.
(NOTE: I'm a violinist with our symphony orchestra here in Boston.)
"I am a part of everything that I have read."
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-28-2009 11:47 AM
Yes, books often make me cry. This book made tears form in my eyes, but very few fell. I think that is because I was in shock. The fear, degradation, and inhumanity didn't really get resolved. But my heart was broken for the families who were driven from everything and suffered so miserably. It's a shame that they couldn't make it while living in the government run camp. There seemed to be hope there.
DinosaurBess wrote:The readers might not get many glimpses into the characters’ minds, but their plight touched me deeper than most I’ve ever read. Do books make any of you cry? This one took something out of me when I finished it, and I lay in bed on top of my sheets and cried a little for the Joads and everyone whose stories are not told but matter more than anything I’ve ever had to live through. I feel a little like Uncle John, guilty about things not done.
Perhaps I’m just an angry teenager, but please don’t judge me too harshly.
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
My blog: http://bookworm56.blogspot.com
Re: GRAPES OF WRATH - Chapters 22 - 28 (spoilers, ok!)
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07-29-2009 05:57 AM
Your daughter is fortunate to have a teacher who allows her to play jazz - mine wouldn't and I had so many arguments with her and my mother about this that I gave up my LRAM round about Grade 7
IBIS wrote:I'm in the same boat as your violinist in-law. My training is heavily classical. I would love to, but I cannot fiddle. (And unfortunately they don't make inflatable or foldable violins!)
My daughter is training to become a pianist... she loves jazz and is freer and innovative.
WW play informal duets together... including popular tunes like the Bruce Springsteen and Arlo Guthrie songs about the Grapes of Wrath.
Choisya wrote:Ah but you can't put a violin in your pocket Ibis!
One of my in-laws is a well known violinist in a quartet here and he would like to be able to 'fiddle' better. As a family we play a lot of folk music for folk dancing and he regrets that he cannot join in the fun because of his classical training. It rather looks as if one of our grand-daughters, who is learning the violin, is more inclined to 'fiddle' because she gets more exposure to folk music than to classical. Do you 'fiddle'?
IBIS wrote:I had to laugh when I came across this:
"The fiddle is rare, hard to learn.
". . . . Harsh ol' bastard, ain't she? Wanta dance? I'll rub up the bow with plenty rosin. Man! Then she'll squawk. Hear her a mile.
I laughed because I actually found the violin a lot easier than a harmonica or a guitar.
(NOTE: I'm a violinist with our symphony orchestra here in Boston.)