Since 1997, you’ve been coming to BarnesandNoble.com to discuss everything from Stephen King to writing to Harry Potter. You’ve made our site more than a place to discover your next book: you’ve made it a community. But like all things internet, BN.com is growing and changing. On May 1, we’re saying goodbye to our community message boards—but that doesn’t mean we won’t still be a place for adventurous readers to connect and discover.

Now, you can explore the most exciting new titles (and remember the classics) at the Barnes & Noble Book Blog. Check out conversations with authors like Jeff VanderMeer and Gary Shteyngart at the B&N Review, and browse write-ups of the best in literary fiction. Come to our Facebook page to weigh in on what it means to be a book nerd. Browse digital deals on the NOOK blog, tweet about books with us,or self-publish your latest novella with NOOK Press. And for those of you looking for support for your NOOK, the NOOK Support Forums will still be here.

We will continue to provide you with books that make you turn pages well past midnight, discover new worlds, and reunite with old friends. And we hope that you’ll continue to tell us how you’re doing, what you’re reading, and what books mean to you.

Reply
Frequent Contributor
chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
0 Kudos

Re: again between addendum

[ Edited ]

To leave our language completely, we would have to leave the planet, or, we could sit in a tree on an island in the middle of the Mississippi. And as Huck traveled down the length of the Missisippi, gazing at the stars and the moon,  literally creating his own star on the raft with his lantern, "outer space" and the river seemed to be synonomous.Natural forces of river, like the ones you might encounter in space, overpowered and "busted" the propriety that languages create, thereby creating new dialects and new accents, and entirely new cultures, although considered to be "improper" derivatives of the original language.

 

Chad

 

PS- People who have a loss of senses (i.e. blind, deaf or both) are in a "different" world- they are more removed from the world that language creates. One (sad) example is Jim's deaf daughter who did not understand Jim's "order" to close the door, and, for this reason, she was more "free" than Jim- for her lack of understanding, her lack of immersion in the language. Jim places his hands over his ears and cries, remembering that he hit her... 

Message Edited by chad on 11-06-2008 06:23 PM
Frequent Contributor
chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
0 Kudos

Truth

[ Edited ]

I thought it was a god place to stop after the above. Huck to Mary Jane (wanting to reveal the King and Duke's identity theft):

 

"I asked her to let me think a minute; and she set there, very impatient and excited and handsome, but looking kind of happy and eased-up, like a person that's had a tooth pulled out. So I went to studying it out. I says to myself, I reckon a body that ups and tells the truth when he is in a tight place is taking considerable many resks, though I ain't had no experience, and can't say for certain; but it looks so to me, anyway; and yet here's a case where I'm blest if it don't look to me like the truth is better and actuly safer than a lie. I must lay it by in my mind, and think it over some time or other, it's so kind of strange and unregular. I never see nothing like it. Well, I says to myself at last, I'm a-going to chance it; I'll up and tell the truth this time, though it does seem most like setting down on a kag of powder and touching it off just to see where you'll go to."

 

Is the truth simply a harnessing of the forces of Nature, like gun powder, to gain advantage?  If you admit that a human being can be a force to harness, like a slave, and given the only truth that we are simply beings who harness the forces of nature for our own survival, do you feel a "new hope" with the next administration?

 

Chad

 

PS- The "truth" or what we consider to be the truth can be a powerful force itself, and Huck uses the "truth" to his advantage or to survive.

Message Edited by chad on 11-07-2008 12:10 PM
Contributor
tsuntzuer
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎11-25-2009
0 Kudos

Re: "A Huckleberry Party"

hi there! i have this question for you: Since he (Thoreau) was put in jail while he was pretending to go to his town's shomaker and pick up his mended shoe, (that was the past action of this scene you and he discribed here) and since he was released from jail next morning proceeding his errand and even more as he said "when I was let out" , and after that realese I assume,  he was wearing newly his mended shoe freely, later he says, he joined a huckleberry party. Doesnt he really says or means he met a "party of fools or fools party " who were unjustly impatients to put his conduct under arrest? ...again.  This is to aprehend or reaprehend him by the "party" without knowing them he was already free of crime,  this because of failure of the judicial system, I mean he was already at liberty when he was again detained in a huckleberry field by a party of fools. I mean,  I,m  not a language native, nor pretend to know more than my own language,  but "huckleberry" could be also translated in a slang as "fool" ; and since this is old fashion English, something could be lost here? because maybe in an ingenious play of words,  he (Thoreau) later described it was also in a  huckleberry field (a second time notion for the word) where his horse was stopped, and he was detained, and then, he was finally claiming that the State was nowhere to be seen. Thats the way I understood it, because I've read the whole book with delight- 

 

sorry to address you, like this, i hope you could help me, with this big doubt of mine, somebody told me i shoudl try with language natives.  At the end the other simple way to see it, it is ignoring that it is old fashion English, and that would be to say  "a party of picking any kind of fruits  people."  or a huckleberry party; finally excuse my english.  and thank you for your time.  I hope you'd understand my point of view.

Contributor
tsuntzuer
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎11-25-2009
0 Kudos

Re: "A Huckleberry Party"

hi there! i have this question for you: Since he (Thoreau) was put in jail while he was pretending to go to his town's shomaker and pick up his mended shoe, (that was the past action of this scene you and he discribed here) and since he was released from jail next morning proceeding his errand and even more as he said "when I was let out" , and after that realese I assume,  he was wearing newly his mended shoe freely, later he says, he joined a huckleberry party. Doesnt he really says or means he met a "party of fools or fools party " who were unjustly impatients to put his conduct under arrest? ...again.  This is to aprehend or reaprehend him by the "party" without knowing them he was already free of crime,  this because of failure of the judicial system, I mean he was already at liberty when he was again detained in a huckleberry field by a party of fools. I mean,  I,m  not a language native, nor pretend to know more than my own language,  but "huckleberry" could be also translated in a slang as "fool" ; and since this is old fashion English, something could be lost here? because maybe in an ingenious play of words,  he (Thoreau) later described it was also in a  huckleberry field (a second time notion for the word) where his horse was stopped, and he was detained, and then, he was finally claiming that the State was nowhere to be seen. Thats the way I understood it, because I've read the whole book with delight- 

 

sorry to address you, like this, i hope you could help me, with this big doubt of mine, somebody told me i shoudl try with language natives.  At the end the other simple way to see it, it is ignoring that it is old fashion English, and that would be to say  "a party of picking any kind of fruits  people."  or a huckleberry party; finally excuse my english.  and thank you for your time.  I hope you'd understand my point of view.

Author
ConnieAnnKirk
Posts: 5,472
Registered: ‎06-14-2007
0 Kudos

Re: "A Huckleberry Party"


tsuntzuer wrote:

hi there! i have this question for you: Since he (Thoreau) was put in jail while he was pretending to go to his town's shomaker and pick up his mended shoe, (that was the past action of this scene you and he discribed here) and since he was released from jail next morning proceeding his errand and even more as he said "when I was let out" , and after that realese I assume,  he was wearing newly his mended shoe freely, later he says, he joined a huckleberry party. Doesnt he really says or means he met a "party of fools or fools party " who were unjustly impatients to put his conduct under arrest? ...again.  This is to aprehend or reaprehend him by the "party" without knowing them he was already free of crime,  this because of failure of the judicial system, I mean he was already at liberty when he was again detained in a huckleberry field by a party of fools. I mean,  I,m  not a language native, nor pretend to know more than my own language,  but "huckleberry" could be also translated in a slang as "fool" ; and since this is old fashion English, something could be lost here? because maybe in an ingenious play of words,  he (Thoreau) later described it was also in a  huckleberry field (a second time notion for the word) where his horse was stopped, and he was detained, and then, he was finally claiming that the State was nowhere to be seen. Thats the way I understood it, because I've read the whole book with delight- 

 

sorry to address you, like this, i hope you could help me, with this big doubt of mine, somebody told me i shoudl try with language natives.  At the end the other simple way to see it, it is ignoring that it is old fashion English, and that would be to say  "a party of picking any kind of fruits  people."  or a huckleberry party; finally excuse my english.  and thank you for your time.  I hope you'd understand my point of view.


 

Welcome, tsuntzuer!  I like how you show a possible play on words with Thoreau's passage.  My take was always that he joined a group of people who were out picking huckleberries (literally), but your point is a good one that he may be playing there with a political sense of the word (figuratively).

 

Join us any time, and please don't worry about your English--we'd love to help your understanding if we can!

~ConnieAnnKirk




[CAK's books , website.]
Frequent Contributor
chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
0 Kudos

Re: "A Huckleberry Party"

Hi -

 

It's been a while and I admit i have yet to pick up again the work by Thoreau but. alas, I got lost in "Huckleberry Finn" by Mark Twain. I don't mean to be rude when I ask this, but was a "huckleberry" another term for a "hic" or a backwoods, outdoorsy type of person? After reading Thoreau, this is someone I might want to be....

 

Chad

Contributor
tsuntzuer
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎11-25-2009
0 Kudos

Re: "A Huckleberry Party"

thank you Conniek for the time you spent answering my post. Imagine if it is surprisng for you to review the meaning of thoreau´s passage about a simple american fruit as I am proposing , how hard could it be for a non american to give a deep view of thoreau's descriptions? And I say VERY HARD INDEED.

 

I begun to read public domain English literature, about two months ago, and its fascinating for me what this is all about! For instance, I recently translated Ayn Rand Anthem, knowing Thoreau was her inspiration, and ...about he; a given fact is that I only Knew of Thoreau by his "maximas" this is "Quotes", but never had the oportunity to read a published book of him. And I did it, I read him, but in the internet. I begin to learn about him and reading his first works, like this one of Civil Disobedience, so here I am. That English is very difficult to me!

 

Is it correct that we should give always a second glance to the ordinary play of words from an extraordinary author or leave the subjetc to the first meaning not endeavoring ourselves in questions like mine here?

 

Im telling Chad something about it, gratefully. Thank you both! Jose.

Contributor
tsuntzuer
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎11-25-2009
0 Kudos

Re: "A Huckleberry Party"

Hi there, it seems like it is still a little tough one to me, to clear this phrase, but if you use the terms you are suggesting, it seems like you are ok with my proposal. But I don´t think you want to be a "hic" or a "Hick", but a person who likes the countryside and enjoys Thoreau's point of view on many things as wilderness and education.

 Yet, I dont want to be left alone here with my big doubt, and maybe it is time to know for good americans like yourselves, that in the internet are circulating many of Thoreau´s Works translated from English to Spanish, that are by one part just interpretations of Thoreau’s Ideas and a real translation in another part, that equals a bad translation or a partial one, or some kind of essay which I don´t like at all: So I begun to translate it myself, for my kids.  But firstly I had to understand the real words and meaning of the very strong phrases he wrote, without changing anything in order of words or sentences or to give my own interpretation, but to give the real spirit of his essay (to try to reproduce it like we are inside Thoreau´s mind and delivering that mind to the reader at the same time, since that is the whole idea of any idea I may say. ) And now with the enlightning that I´m receiving from you all, it’s even more clear that it may be a double meaning in Thoreau's passage, our theme here, and not precisely a political one but one of just simple and human mockery from a very cultivated man about the human capabilities of the American Justice pursueing an inocent man at that long ago era?

thank you for your help Chad and overall you too ConnieK!

and again sorry for my english. Guess I dont bother you again, god bless.

Distinguished Bibliophile
Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
0 Kudos

Re: "A Huckleberry Party"

I checked "Huckleberry" on my on-line unabridged Websters Dictionary (a subscription service).  I found no evidence of a slang or idiomatic usage -- i.e., it refers only to the fruit -- for whatever value that piece of information may have to all of you. 

 

Did Twain write before or after Thoreau.

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
Frequent Contributor
chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
0 Kudos

Thoreau's work

[ Edited ]

Hi-

 

Good luck on your translation to Spanish. I came acrosss the word "huckleberry" while I was reading "Huckleberry Finn", of course  and again in Thoreau. "HUckleberry Finn" would be very difficult to translate into Spanish I think. Political Thoreau's work would be :smileywink:

 

Best,

Chad

Contributor
tsuntzuer
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎11-25-2009
0 Kudos

Re: "A Huckleberry Party"

Sincerely I am not trying to see things that don’t exists here, but since you have a better view than me, having the Webster's unabridged Dictionary,  wich I dont, This is the first reason why I came to you, to ask to the one who really knows best. Yes! I accept you are correct, but I´d like to say that before asking I found something, and the only evidence that I've found about this slang usage is in Wordreference.com, as I said, I´m not an English spoken native, the only thing I pretend here is to learn, and certainly I don’t have the on-line unabridged Websters Dictionary subscription service.  But frome one part Somebody said "every piece of internet information is clickable" so I clicked on "huckleberry" in that English-Spanish on Line dictionary, and found this: Huckleberry    =árandano nm   Huckleberry    =slang  bobo.  And regarding the meaning of  “bobo” translating from Spanish to English : bobo,-a = adj (simple, lelo) stupid, silly (cándido) naïve II sustantivo masculino y femenino fool.  So I guess I will stick to it anyway.  I hope I am not violating any rule here and very much appreciate your interest on my humble or incorrect point of view; and for other part,  previously, I consulted this whole subject on wordreference.com forum, and one of their moderators suggested me to click on you fine people. Finally I always will say excuse my english. best regards. jose.

ps Twain write after thoreau, and very soon I will beguin to read him in English, in his original proposal English as it should be.

Contributor
tsuntzuer
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎11-25-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Thoreau's work

yes you are right, but Twain´s works are already and very finely translated by Spanish literary people. An incredible abundance of Mark Twain literature exist on spanish parlant world, but few people read it and enjoy it, besides The adventures of Tom Sawyer. And as you correctly are saying, the works of Twain as the works of Thoreau  would be a great task to do and are very difficult one to translate from his original language, but it is the works of Thoreau already existing in spanish translation that is not very well translated. But if I found something of Twain's works not translated, I'll try it gladly. because all of this speaks of costume and history and i love it where ever it may come from. keep having a good life my friend. jose.

Frequent Contributor
chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Thoreau's work

I did not know that there were translations of "Huck Finn"- amazing! A  dialect of English, so different that it almost is a different language now exists in "Huck Finn." It seems untranslatable, in part. But I think Mark Twain wanted to preserve a part of the Amercan culture in writing- before we became "civilized" that is. We still argue about what is stereotype vs. what is real in the Twain's novels....

 

Best,

Chad

Contributor
tsuntzuer
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎11-25-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Thoreau's work

Oh yes indeed! the other day I was navigating trying to remember the american books translated into spanish that I once owned but sadly lost on one of my trips, and saw an incredible variety of Twain's good spanish translated works, I mean excelent ones. I mean there is the whole Spanish Academy of Language, behind every word translated from one part and for another a bilingual literary agent supervising that the every word is the equivalent to the one used by the author  --and not another,  from a semantic and syntax point of view. That search was mainly because of you people, because I saw many excerpts of Twain, and moved me to  retry to know his philosophy, an incredible human and correct one, he is acussed of many things through his works, for instance the use of the word '**bleep**', but he was not a racist, was a costumbrist who depicted your country in what I suppose is called Old fashion english. And well he really preserved a way of life long gone, between two covers, and I guess its a must and almost an obligation for a people with this kind of authors (humanists, excepctionals, patriotics, universals) like Twain, not just to read them, but to undestand them, going back in time to live it at present, because it gives a meaning or something new, something not discovered until we give a deep second glance to his words, then they go into our own life for first time or again. and its fun! Untranslatable? hum! it is already done. For He is an Icon of universal literature, belongs to us all. and that arguing? it is I guess the whole point of this forum: to make people think and wonder and learn from a master mind who still delivers his words of wisdom clearly or unclearly for today English spoken world god bless. you are lucky to have him at first sight, and not translated like me. see you.

Frequent Contributor
chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Thoreau's work

Well, I do not feel that Twain sought to preserve the "slave culture" of the south in a novel, but the U.S. was formed, in part, to allow people to live "freely", or without intervention from government(s). Truly, a slave culture within the U.S. could not exist. Whether we can allow each other to live "free" is still a contentious issue in the U.S. at least, and probably an issue for the rest of the world or where you are from....

 

Chad

Contributor
tsuntzuer
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎11-25-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Thoreau's work

You are intirely correct Chad, that was not the intention of Mark Twain but to critize that years of the Union, he was only making a romantic and humanitarian depiction of the slave situation, dont get me wrong, remember I´m not good with English, so maybe I,m going my way from here. All of His "Adventures" works  were about freedom, but sometimes in all of the literature of the world the works of those like Twain, need to be approached like you correctly do. For others like me, a Mexican, his works in original language are like the  Rosetta Stone, but not untranslatable as you say. Maybe Twain did not sought to preserve nothing, but only to make the american people to think of the injustice of that times, but again, his words and works trascends him, been one the greatest of American Writers, and may be he was Huck or Tom dangling around that river, but dont tel me, I'll find out my self. God bless.

Frequent Contributor
chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Thoreau's work

 "but dont tel me, I'll find out my self."

 

I agree. But we have a B&N book club. And when a classic work like "huck" is translated, the "translation" tells you, unless you translate it yourself....

 

chad

Author
ConnieAnnKirk
Posts: 5,472
Registered: ‎06-14-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Thoreau's work

Jose--Please feel free to keep asking questions about any classic work in English that you think we might be helpful to you in translating.  It might take us a couple of tries to understand your questions accurately, but I know many of our club's members would find it fun to help with a non-native English speaker's understanding of these good books!

 

HUCK FINN is, indeed, such a world-reknowned classic that I'm sure it has been translated into many languages by now.  How they handle the dialect, as Chad mentions, I don't know--it must have been a real challenge for translators!

 

Good luck with your reading, Jose!  I think it's excellent that you are taking the effort to read these books in their original language, even when it is challenging for you.  I admire that effort!

~ConnieAnnKirk




[CAK's books , website.]
Contributor
tsuntzuer
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎11-25-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Thoreau's work

well ConnieK, I did my search I got both English and spanish Tom Sawyer´s vertions, there are things that I'd like to coment about next thing to compleating my re-reading, I don t promess anything but I´ll try to tell you some things I've discoverded about Twain. (fascinating! And as far as Thoreau I´m still negotiating Civil Disobedience  last detalis in Spanish, I found at Wordreference.com a slang for huckleberry and that is "fool" , and that is the reason why I begun with this sort of maybe annoying questions of mine, now, nobody has answered something about that dictionay, that I think its very good, unless this one does not have your quality standars, may I say so? I will try Walden now. .

is Wordreference.com a good dictionary? by the way I only have Webster's free on line dictionary,and  I even got an  Appleton's turn of the 20th century dictionary (1908) and as always pardon my english. guess i need to very very very much improve my semantics and syntax don't I?

hey I visit your page, didn't know I was speaking to somebody that prepared, and makes me a little much nervouss. Thank you for everything God bless what about a reference to wordrefrence.com? god bless

Distinguished Bibliophile
Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Thoreau's work

I'll let someone else comment about wordreference.com, since I know nothing about its background or scholarship.   I will say that I find the free English dictionary at m-w.com to be excellent and easy to use. The main reason I have a paid subscription for the unabridged version is for the words I inevitably encounter over the course of a year that are not in the free version. I am enough of a reader (in English/American) to be willing to make the investment.  

 

I also have a print version of the OED -- Oxford English Dictionary, but its weight and print size constrain how often I turn to it.  (I did also look up "huckleberry" there just out of curiosity.  It did not include any except the plant definitions -- interestingly, I did not even find a reference to Mark Twain's use of the term for his famous character.)  It seems to me as if someplace, somewhere there has been some word play between "huckleberry" and "huckster", even though the two seem to have very different origins.

 


tsuntzuer wrote:

well ConnieK, I did my search I got both English and spanish Tom Sawyer´s vertions, there are things that I'd like to coment about next thing to compleating my re-reading, I don t promess anything but I´ll try to tell you some things I've discoverded about Twain. (fascinating! And as far as Thoreau I´m still negotiating Civil Disobedience  last detalis in Spanish, I found at Wordreference.com a slang for huckleberry and that is "fool" , and that is the reason why I begun with this sort of maybe annoying questions of mine, now, nobody has answered something about that dictionay, that I think its very good, unless this one does not have your quality standars, may I say so? I will try Walden now. .

is Wordreference.com a good dictionary? by the way I only have Webster's free on line dictionary,and  I even got an  Appleton's turn of the 20th century dictionary (1908) and as always pardon my english. guess i need to very very very much improve my semantics and syntax don't I?

hey I visit your page, didn't know I was speaking to somebody that prepared, and makes me a little much nervouss. Thank you for everything God bless what about a reference to wordrefrence.com? god bless


 

 

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy