Sense and Sensibility: The Book (spoilers, ok) [ Edited ]

[ConnieAnnKirk]

We are moving quickly through the PBS Masterpiece Classics series, so it's already time to post a thread for Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility.  I've heard there are many folks waiting to offer their impressions of this beloved Austen classic once a thread is posted, so here you go--fire away!

EnJOY!

Message Edited by ConnieK on 01-26-2009 11:34 AM

[Laurel]

I listened to the book earlier this month. One word, jargon, really caught my attention this time through. Here it is in chapter 18:

"It is very true," said Marianne, "that admiration of landscape scenery is become a mere jargon. Every body pretends to feel and tries to describe with the taste and elegance of him who first defined what picturesque beauty was. I detest jargon of every kind; and sometimes I have kept my feelings to myself, because I could find no language to describe them in but what was worn and hackneyed out of all sense and meaning."

I know that jargon is the specialized language of a particular field, but I was somewhat surprised to find Marianne using the word. Does anyone know the history of the word? (I hope I'm not taking us too far off on a rabbit trail.)

[Peppermill]

 Laurel --haven't "dug", but here are a few clues from the Unabridged Entry:

Main Entry: 1jar·gon    
Pronunciation: järgn, jg- also -gän
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: Middle English jargoun, from Middle French jargon, probably of imitative origin
1 : chatter or twitter especially of a bird or animal
2 a : confused unintelligible language : GIBBERISH; specifically : JARGON APHASIA b : a strange, outlandish, or barbarous language or dialect <foreign languages were considered rude jargons> c : a hybrid language or dialect arising from a mixture of languages that is typically much simplified in vocabulary and grammar (as Pidgin English) and is used for communication between peoples of different speech; specifically usually capitalized : CHINOOK JARGON -- compare LINGUA FRANCA
3 a : the technical terminology or characteristic idiom of specialists or workers in a particular activity or area of knowledge; often : a pretentious or unnecessarily obscure and esoteric terminology b : a special vocabulary or idiom fashionable in a particular group or clique
4 : language vague in meaning and full of circumlocutions and long high-sounding words
synonym see DIALECT

Citation format for this entry:

"jargon." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (26 Jan. 2009).

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Laurel wrote:

I listened to the book earlier this month. One word, jargon, really caught my attention this time through. Here it is in chapter 18:

"It is very true," said Marianne, "that admiration of landscape scenery is become a mere jargon. Every body pretends to feel and tries to describe with the taste and elegance of him who first defined what picturesque beauty was. I detest jargon of every kind; and sometimes I have kept my feelings to myself, because I could find no language to describe them in but what was worn and hackneyed out of all sense and meaning."

I know that jargon is the specialized language of a particular field, but I was somewhat surprised to find Marianne using the word. Does anyone know the history of the word? (I hope I'm not taking us too far off on a rabbit trail.)

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It sounds as if Marianne may be referring to Udolpho descriptions?  I haven't checked the timing of Austen's parody.

[PhoebesMom]

I finished rereading the book last night.  I enjoyed it very much, but I still can not bring myself to call it one of my favorite Jane Austin books. 

I relate to Marianne, though I would much rather be like Elinor.  As I find Marianne to be too much of a drama queen.  It seems as though she must be brought down and tamed before she is ready to accept Colonel Brandon.

[dulcinea3]

I finished the night before last.  This might be only the second time I've read it.  I did enjoy it very much, but I would also say that it is not one of my top three.

The first time I read it, I thought that Austen's point was that sense was right and sensibility was wrong, but I saw it a bit differently this time.  I think that she shows good and bad for both.  Elinor seemed to have it all together much better than Marianne, with more common sense and more able to deal with a crisis.  However, I found that she tended to be quite judgmental of others (in a different way from Marianne, who generally disliked people who had different opinions than hers).  There were times that she was said to despise or loathe certain people.  Also, her almost superhuman control over her emotions led others to think that she didn't really feel anything.  When they thought that Edward was married to Lucy, her mother finally saw an expression on her face that indicated that she was hurt, and realized that she had been neglecting Elinor while she spent all her time comforting Marianne.  Their mother was just like Marianne, it seemed to me, with much more sensibility than sense.

At one point in the book, I was getting quite irritated, as it seemed to be just page after page of inane conversation.  This was when Marianne and Willoughby were getting to know each other, and making fun of everyone else.  It just went on and on.  Then, when Willoughby finally left, the Palmers showed up, and Mrs. Palmer was almost as bad!  I loved Mr. Palmer, though, and how he pretended to be so stuck-up and to dislike everybody.  Later on, he turned out not to be so bad, after all.

[Laurel]

I adore Colonel Brandon. This was evidently Austen's first novel, at least the first to be published. It's not my favorite either, but I'd say she got off to a great start.

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PhoebesMom wrote:

I finished rereading the book last night.  I enjoyed it very much, but I still can not bring myself to call it one of my favorite Jane Austin books. 

I relate to Marianne, though I would much rather be like Elinor.  As I find Marianne to be too much of a drama queen.  It seems as though she must be brought down and tamed before she is ready to accept Colonel Brandon.

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[Everyman]

One thing that readers who are new to Austen or to her era might not realize: the term Sensibility in the title does not mean sensibility as we use it today.  Quite the opposite!  It is closer to emotionality, so that Sense and Sensibility are opposites, not close synonyms.  I leave it up to the reader to decide which character(s) represent sense and which represent sensibility. 

Message Edited by Everyman on 01-30-2009 08:57 PM

[Everyman]

I agree with you, it is not the best Austen.  Which is is a fun debate, but usually circles around Pride and Prejudice, Persuasion, and, my choice, Emma.

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PhoebesMom wrote:

I finished rereading the book last night.  I enjoyed it very much, but I still can not bring myself to call it one of my favorite Jane Austin books. 

I relate to Marianne, though I would much rather be like Elinor.  As I find Marianne to be too much of a drama queen.  It seems as though she must be brought down and tamed before she is ready to accept Colonel Brandon.

---

[Joan_Klingel_R…]

Hello,

I am the special guest for the Barnes and Noble discussion of the PBS Masterpiece Classics repeat of S&S on Feb1 and 8.  I want to respond to your comment about Colonel Brandon. He is the true hero of the book, having the right balance of sense and sensibility, the latter being using one's feelings as a guide to behavior. You might wish to read my article on this novel, which includes the major secton onthe much understood Colonel at http://jasna/org/persuasions/on-line/vol26no1/ray.htm When you see the PBS TV version, you will see how script writer, Andrew Davies, fleshed out the Colonel, by adding scenes that are not in the novel,  to help us to understand him more fully and see that Marianne's early rejection of him is wrong. In fact,  he is truly Marianne's "reward," even as the novel,itself, refers to Marianne as his "reward."

I hope your will enjoy our discussion of the television series,

Joan K. Ray

[Joan_Klingel_R…]

I am elaborating a bit on Everyman's excellent point about what sensibility meant in Austen's day. From the late 17th century through the late 18th century in England and western Europe, persons (the intelligentsia, of course, as the poor were struggling to eat!)  were wondering how human behavior was determined. One idea was that humanity is innately benevolent, acting for the good. Those who believed this held that persons used their feelings as the guide to human behavior. In literature, there is even an "Age of Sensibility" that produced what are known as novels of sensibility: The Man of Feeling and A Sentimental Journey are two famous titles. Austen surely read them. By the late 18th century, popular periodicals (early forms of magazines) ran "stories" about the danger of relying too much on sensibility for one's conduct. There is even a story in The Lady's Magazine in the 1790's (Austen wrote her first version of S&S as "Elinor and Marianne" about 1795, now lost) about a young woman named Sensibility who (like Marianne near the end of the novel) actually becomes ill because she is too trusting and too emotional. Another character named "Sense" helps her. So Austen was definitely writing about a discussion that was "in the air" of her day, and had moved from the intelligentsia to readers of ladies' magazines.

[Joan_Klingel_R…]

Hello from the Barnes and Noble guest, Professor Ray,  for the PBS re-showing of S&s on Feb 1 and 8:

When Marianne talks about the "picturesque," she is referring to contempory published discussions of aesthetics: why certain images please the eye or ear, and in this case the eye. The "picturesque" meant appropriate for a picture, and aesthetician William Gilpin said that in painting pictures, objects should be placed in groups of threes for best pictorial effect. Elizabeth Bennet in P&P alludes to the "picturesque" when she tells Miss Bingley, Darcy, and Mrs. Hurst that they are grouped perfectly (as a group of 3) on the walkway at Netherfield Park's gardens.  Austen and her contemporaries read William Gilpin, M.A., Observations, Relative Chiefly to Picturesque Beauty, Made in the Year 1772, On Several Parts of England; Particularly the Mountain, and Lakes of Cumberland and Westmoreland, 2 vols. (London: R. Blamire, 1786).

[Peppermill]

I believe this is the link Dr. Klingel Ray intended to give us:

http://www.jasna.org/persuasions/on-line/vol26no1/ray.htm

We look forward to your comments, Joan.  It may amuse you to know that several of us just completed The Mysteries of Udolpho, with all Ann Radcliffe's references to sensibility.  (Women's Literature board.) 

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Joan_Klingel_Ray wrote:

Hello,

I am the special guest for the Barnes and Noble discussion of the PBS Masterpiece Classics repeat of S&S on Feb1 and 8.  I want to respond to your comment about Colonel Brandon. He is the true hero of the book, having the right balance of sense and sensibility, the latter being using one's feelings as a guide to behavior. You might wish to read my article on this novel, which includes the major secton onthe much understood Colonel at http://jasna/org/persuasions/on-line/vol26no1/ray.htm When you see the PBS TV version, you will see how script writer, Andrew Davies, fleshed out the Colonel, by adding scenes that are not in the novel,  to help us to understand him more fully and see that Marianne's early rejection of him is wrong. In fact,  he is truly Marianne's "reward," even as the novel,itself, refers to Marianne as his "reward."

I hope your will enjoy our discussion of the television series,

Joan K. Ray

---

[Joan_Klingel_R…]

Hello Dulcinea 3 from Professor Ray, the guest for B&N discussion of the PBS reshowing of S&S, Feb 1 and 8,

Your are right: Not only is Austen saying that a person needs a balance of sense and sensibility, as opposed to one characteristic being always good and the other always bad, but  she is also showing us in the book different kinds of sense, good and bad (e.g., when Fanny Dashwood convinces John D to convince himself to whittle down his promise to his father to care for his stepmother and stepsisters to nothing, they are both using shrewd financial sense; when Elinor finally tells Marianne about Edward's engagement to Lucy, Elinor stresses the pain of her self-control, showing that exercising sense can sometimes be painful--recall how Elinor leaves the room to cry flood of tears, pent up over a year, when Edward finally comes to Barton and proposes) and sensibility, again, good and bad (e.g., Colonel Brandon's kind treatment of the fallen Eliza Brandon exemplifies good sensibility, while Marianne's rudeness to others is self-indulgence disguised as sensibility). Austen is a sophisticated, complex, and thoughtful writer: she would not use those terms, sense and sensibility, crudely or simplistically.

[Joan_Klingel_R…]

Hello to PhoebesMom from Professor Ray, the guest for the B&N Bookclub discussion of the PBS TV S&S, showing Feb 1 and 8:

Of course, your are on the mark:  Marianne is a drama queen.  She is indulging herself too much in sensibility (letting her feelings or emotions guide her behavior), and this leads to self-indulgence. Our narrator in the book, however, tells us that by the time she marries Colonel Brandon, she has learned from her mistakes, and she has learned to love him fully as much as she ever loved Willoughby.  Just FYI: in Austen's day, young ladies "came out" at age sixteen, meaning they were ready for marriage. Many teen-age "girls"  married men twice their age because young gentlemen had to wait to inherit or build their fortunes to marry. And the marriages were happy.

[Joan_Klingel_R…]

Glad you read Udolpho! That's one of the best gothic-sentimental novels: Emily St. Aubert faints on cue! Now read Austen's Northanger Abbey (her first completed novel, but published posthumously), where Austen takes Udolpho for quite a satirical ride, sometimes at the expense of her heroine, Catherine Morland. Happy reading! (By the way, NA is shorter than S&S and MUCH shorter than Udolpho.) Joan 

[Joan_Klingel_R…]

Thanks for correcting the link I provided to my essay, "'The Amiable Prejudices of a Young [Writer's] Mind': The Problems of Sense and Sensibility.'" I'd love to hear your thoughts on it! And Austen fans may wish to learn more about the Jane Austen Society of North America

at www.jasna.org  We have nearly 5,000 members, mostly NOT professors! Just normal folks!  And we have about 70 local regional groups.

[Joan_Klingel_R…]

Hello again, dulicinea3, from Professor Ray, the guest for the B&N Bookclub for the PBS repeat of S&S, Feb 1 and 8,

Here I am commenting on your being fed up with all of Marianne and Willoughby's snide remarks about people, etc.: that's the point! Marianne's relying on sensibility and Willoughby's feigning sensibility to attract Marianne make them both totally self-indulgent. Austen is showing us this, rather than telling us that they become self-indulgent. No wonder you found them "inane." And they are behaving badly, totally against the social norms. This is why she is such a greaty writer (or at least one of the reasons): she renders her characters to us through what they say and how they say it. That is how we meet people in real life and make our judgments of them.

[Laurel]

Professor Ray, your article is fascinating. I'll have more to say when I finish it, but what you say about the Hugh Grant Edward really lights a bulb. Also that Colonel Brandon is the hero and the Brandon. I remember that horse barn scene clearly. Charming, but just not right. I'm off to finish reading your article now. It will be really interesting to see what Andrew Davies does.

Laurel

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Joan_Klingel_Ray wrote:

Hello,

I am the special guest for the Barnes and Noble discussion of the PBS Masterpiece Classics repeat of S&S on Feb1 and 8.  I want to respond to your comment about Colonel Brandon. He is the true hero of the book, having the right balance of sense and sensibility, the latter being using one's feelings as a guide to behavior. You might wish to read my article on this novel, which includes the major secton onthe much understood Colonel at http://jasna/org/persuasions/on-line/vol26no1/ray.htm When you see the PBS TV version, you will see how script writer, Andrew Davies, fleshed out the Colonel, by adding scenes that are not in the novel,  to help us to understand him more fully and see that Marianne's early rejection of him is wrong. In fact,  he is truly Marianne's "reward," even as the novel,itself, refers to Marianne as his "reward."

I hope your will enjoy our discussion of the television series,

Joan K. Ray

---

[Everyman]

This same discussion was going on in the philosophical realm, with Hobbes for example positing that man in the state of nature is controlled by brute passions (I simplify greatly, of course), and Locke arguing that man in the state of nature is controlled by reason.

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Joan_Klingel_Ray wrote:

I am elaborating a bit on Everyman's excellent point about what sensibility meant in Austen's day. From the late 17th century through the late 18th century in England and western Europe, persons (the intelligentsia, of course, as the poor were struggling to eat!)  were wondering how human behavior was determined. One idea was that humanity is innately benevolent, acting for the good. Those who believed this held that persons used their feelings as the guide to human behavior. In literature, there is even an "Age of Sensibility" that produced what are known as novels of sensibility: The Man of Feeling and A Sentimental Journey are two famous titles. Austen surely read them. By the late 18th century, popular periodicals (early forms of magazines) ran "stories" about the danger of relying too much on sensibility for one's conduct. There is even a story in The Lady's Magazine in the 1790's (Austen wrote her first version of S&S as "Elinor and Marianne" about 1795, now lost) about a young woman named Sensibility who (like Marianne near the end of the novel) actually becomes ill because she is too trusting and too emotional. Another character named "Sense" helps her. So Austen was definitely writing about a discussion that was "in the air" of her day, and had moved from the intelligentsia to readers of ladies' magazines.

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[Everyman]

We actually had read Northanger Abbey earlier, and its references to Udolpho, which several of us who knew Northanger even before that discussion had intended but never gotten around to reading, was what caused us to bring Udolpho to the forefront for discussion. 

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Joan_Klingel_Ray wrote:
Glad you read Udolpho! That's one of the best gothic-sentimental novels: Emily St. Aubert faints on cue! Now read Austen's Northanger Abbey (her first completed novel, but published posthumously), where Austen takes Udolpho for quite a satirical ride, sometimes at the expense of her heroine, Catherine Morland. Happy reading! (By the way, NA is shorter than S&S and MUCH shorter than Udolpho.) Joan 

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