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Peppermill
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Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

[ Edited ]

Having received no objections, I'll set this up for Week 1.  Hopefully, I'll have some time to read over the Fourth of July weekend and can reasonably suggest the next three weeks.  In the meantime, if anyone else has suggestions, please either post or just set them up.

 

Suggested reading/discussion for Week 1 (7/4-10/2010)  Chapters I – XI (1-11) to page 149 in Modern Library Edition

 

Chapter I:         The Magnet Attracting--A Waif Amid Forces

Chapter II:        What Poverty Threatened--Of Granite And Brass

Chapter III:       A Wee Question Of Fortune--Four-Fifty A Week

Chapter IV:      The Spendings Of Fancy--Facts Answer With Sneers

Chapter V:       A Glittering Night Flower--The Use Of A Name

Chapter VI:      The Machine And The Maiden--A Knight Of To-Day

Chapter VII:     The Lure Of The Material--Beauty Speaks For Itself

Chapter VIII:     Intimations By Winter--An Ambassador Summoned

Chapter IX:      Convention's Own Tinder-Box--The Eye That Is Green

Chapter X:       The Counsel Of Winter--Fortune's Ambassador Calls

Chapter XI:      The Persuasion Of Fashion--Feeling Guards O'er Its Own

 

These chapter headings should link to on-line text (I haven't checked them all).  This should simplify if you want to include quotations in your comments.

 

When I did have a chance to read a bit, it seemed to me that there was a change in the direction of the story after Chapter 11, about 150 pages.  That change is foreshadowed; however, I thought it might be interesting to focus on the events and relationships of those first chapters, such as Carrie's move to Chicago, her sister and brother-in-law, her initial impressions and experiences in the city, the role of Charles Drouet, the setting in Chicago, ....

 

As usual, in these weekly groupings, avoid spoilers that might diminish the pleasure of other readers who have not read further.

 

Enjoy!  Look forward to your posts.

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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dulcinea3
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

Thanks for getting us started, Pepper!  I finally managed to start reading last night and have read the first two chapters.

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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

[ Edited ]

dulcinea3 wrote:

Thanks for getting us started, Pepper!  I finally managed to start reading last night and have read the first two chapters.


Thanks for your note, Dulcinea.
I hope you will enjoy it -- as I recall, it is a re-reading for you.  So far I have (I'm in chapter 13), although the writing does seem a bit old-fashioned and wooden (perhaps too stern a word) at times -- not so much in the characterizations and the story line, but in some of the more philosophical paragraphs.  But, those have not been so intrusive as to destroy the story for me.  It does read more quickly than I expected.
(I took a break to finish Zoe Klein's Drawing in the Dust and to start The Help by Kathryn Stockett, both other commitments or requests.  I haven't pulled Patchett's Bel Canto from the shelf yet.)
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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dulcinea3
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

I have read through this first section (actually, last night I got through chapter 12).

 

What I notice is that Dreiser's characterizations are rather superficial.  It seems that each character is more of a 'type' than an individual, to start with, and then he adds a few things to let us know them a bit better. 

 

Drouet is a typical cad and ladies' man, but at the same time, he is not so bad, as he is not malicious and really more just happy-go-lucky, follow the tide.  He has been with Carrie for a while now, so he did not just use her and cast her aside, and he seems to have some concern that she is happy.

 

Carrie is a typical naive country girl come to the big city, but it turns out that she does have some innate sense of taste and has managed to make herself more attractive and alluring.  She has occasional pangs of conscience, but her love of finery and social climbing tendencies win out.

 

I assume that Carrie and Drouet are sleeping together, but Dreiser doesn't really specify when it happened or reference it at all.  There seemed to be times when Drouet was reassuring Carrie that he would not take advantage of her, right up through getting her the rooms, so I didn't quite catch when that changed.

 

I wonder if Dreiser's aim here is more to illustrate a point in time culturally and universal truths, rather than get into personalities.  I noticed that several times he stated that he wanted to describe something before it vanished, so that the reader would not be familiar with it.  In one instance, this was Drouet's type of man; I think another was the department store, although I might be mistaken.

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chadadanielleKR
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

 


dulcinea3 wrote:
 

 

I wonder if Dreiser's aim here is more to illustrate a point in time culturally and universal truths, rather than get into personalities.  I noticed that several times he stated that he wanted to describe something before it vanished, so that the reader would not be familiar with it.  In one instance, this was Drouet's type of man; I think another was the department store, although I might be mistaken.


 

 

So true, it seems to me that he is more interested in the action than in people's personalities.

The pace in the first chapters is rather quick and a lot is happening so far. It's like he's using a large brush rather than a thin one so as to create a general atmosphere rather than an accurate description of the busy working environment of Chicago.

 

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IBIS
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

Intro to CARRIE

 

We know little about Carrie when we first meet her. My first impression of her is formed by her material possessions: a yellow leather snap wallet, a cheap imitation alligator-skin suitcase, and four dollars.

 

This tells me that Carrie is poor, she can’t afford the luxury of real alligator skin, but she wants the status of it, and so she owns a cheap imitation.

 

Telling us the exact amount of money she has… four dollars… focuses on the importance of cold hard cash in her new world.

 

There already is a strong emphasis on the theme of money.

IBIS

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dulcinea3
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

[ Edited ]

IBIS wrote:

Intro to CARRIE

 

We know little about Carrie when we first meet her. My first impression of her is formed by her material possessions: a yellow leather snap wallet, a cheap imitation alligator-skin suitcase, and four dollars.

 

This tells me that Carrie is poor, she can’t afford the luxury of real alligator skin, but she wants the status of it, and so she owns a cheap imitation.

 

Telling us the exact amount of money she has… four dollars… focuses on the importance of cold hard cash in her new world.

 

There already is a strong emphasis on the theme of money.


And four dollars is also the rent she is to pay to her brother-in-law, out of the $4.50 that she earns, leaving her with less than adequate carfare.  What I found interesting is that, when Carrie turned over her four dollars to her sister, Hanson turned over four dollars less towards the household expenses than he usually did, intending to save those four dollars towards buying some property.  Apparently, they expect Carrie to turn over virtually her whole salary, and at the same time, cost them nothing in living expenses, since Hanson expects to live on the same amount as before she came to live with them.

On the first Saturday night Carrie paid her board, four dollars. Minnie had a quaver of conscience as she took it, but did not know how to explain to Hanson if she took less.  That worthy gave up just four dollars less toward the household expenses with a smile of satisfaction.  He contemplated increasing his Building and Loan payments.  As for Carrie, she studied over the problem of finding clothes and amusement on fifty cents a week.  She brooded over this until she was in a state of mental rebellion.

Of course, the ironic outcome of taking almost all of her wages for board is that she has to walk in the bad weather, gets sick, and loses her job.  At which time she is of no more use to the Hansons and they want to send her back home.  I believe that Carrie's sister does have some slight feelings for her sister (usually successfully repressed, but expressing themselves in her dream), but it certainly has nothing to do with family affection that Carrie was allowed to come to them; they only wanted another wage-earner to contribute to the household.

 

At the beginning of Chapter 7, Dreiser waxes a little philosophical about money and lets us know Carrie's position on the subject:

The true meaning of money yet remains to be popularly explained and comprehended. When each individual realises for himself that this thing primarily stands for and should only be accepted as a moral due--that it should be paid out as honestly stored energy, and not as a usurped privilege--many of our social, religious, and political troubles will have permanently passed. As for Carrie, her understanding of the moral significance of money was the popular understanding, nothing more. The old definition: "Money: something everybody else has and I must get," would have expressed her understanding of it thoroughly. Some of it she now held in her hand--two soft, green ten-dollar bills--and she felt that she was immensely better off for the having of them. It was something that was power in itself. One of her order of mind would have been content to be cast away upon a desert island with a bundle of money, and only the long strain of starvation would have taught her that in some cases it could have no value. Even then she would have had no conception of the relative value of the thing; her one thought would, undoubtedly, have concerned the pity of having so much power and the inability to use it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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IBIS
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

Dulcie, your post prompted these thoughts I had about Carrie and money.

 

These first chapters tell me that she has a naïve understanding of money. She hasn't yet understood that by itself, money is worth nothing... only in relation to BUYING expensive stuff does it represent any value.

 

She visits the department store and is fascinated by what money can buy…. the trinkets, the clothing, the fancy stuff...  things she wants even though she can’t afford them. She only has fifty cents to spend.

 

One irony is that she can’t even afford the shoes that she makes at that horrible job.

She’s attracted to Drouet because he seems to have money to buy stuff …flashy clothes, and good shoes. He gives her $20 to help her move away from her sister's dreary flat. He takes her to fancy restaurants, and buys her nice clothes.

 

From the start, their relationship is shaped by her desire for material possessions.

 


dulcinea3 wrote: (SNIP)
As for Carrie, her understanding of the moral significance of money was the popular understanding, nothing more. The old definition: "Money: something everybody else has and I must get," would have expressed her understanding of it thoroughly. Some of it she now held in her hand--two soft, green ten-dollar bills--and she felt that she was immensely better off for the having of them. It was something that was power in itself. 

 

 

IBIS

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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

[ Edited ]

CHICAGO: an important, if not THE most important character in "Sister Carrie"

 

I agree that Dreiser does use large brush strokes to paint the mind-boggling economic changes that shaped modern cities like Chicago in the 1890s.

 

I think that Chicago could be considered his most important character... it pretty much has a starring role.... as does another major city later in the novel.

 

In its opening chapter on page 4, the narrator says, "The city has its cunning wiles," and it seems that Chicago, rather than any man, seduces Carrie. 

 

This huge city enticed young women like Carrie because of its unprecedented growth: from a population of 300,000 at the time of the fire in 1871 to over one million by 1890... more than tripled in less than 20 years!

He describes Chicago as "a giant magnet drawing to itself from all quarters the hopeful and the hopeless" (p. 16).

 

The author compares the attraction of Chicago to a lighted candle to moths, "Chicago attracts them in swarms that come year after year with the vague idea that they can get along here if anywhere."

 

Dreiser uses the moth image again when he describes the saloon that Hurstwood manages: (p. 46) "Here come the moths in endless procession to bask in the light of the flame."

 

 


chadadanielleKR wrote:

So true, it seems to me that he is more interested in the action than in people's personalities.

The pace in the first chapters is rather quick and a lot is happening so far. It's like he's using a large brush rather than a thin one so as to create a general atmosphere rather than an accurate description of the busy working environment of Chicago.

 


IBIS

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dulcinea3
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

I agree, IBIS.  Carrie appears to be motivated solely by a desire for money and material possessions (even if at first they are as little as a decent pair of shoes and a stylish jacket to keep warm during the winter).  Her submission to Drouet is only because of what he can and is willing to give her.  I don't believe that she has any affection for him at all.  Occasionally she does feel some shame or qualms, but they generally appear to be instantly conquered by her reflecting on what she has gained materially.  Her naivete is also reflected in how, at first, she makes plans for spending whatever money she has that far exceed how much she actually has.  She does this with her meager leftover wages, and also with the money that Drouet gives her.

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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

[ Edited ]

Dreiser's characters in An American Tragedy were similar, in that they were defined more in terms of status and class, then as individuals, especially in the eyes of the protagonist. That delineation of status and class - specifically regarding the two women he was conflicted over - predominantly drove the plot of that novel.

 

I like how Carrie hears a distinctive voice in her head that speaks what is perceived as "socially acceptable behavior" of the period - a product of striving upwards and being painfully aware of her class and status. I like the fact that presents conflict for her, because it seems so very stifling for a female.

 

It is also reinforced by her sister and husband, in that you can almost see them with a checklist with what is appropriate for Carrie and what is unacceptable. GAH! I would lose my mind!

 

So despite the flatness of her character, I cant help but root for the girl, and hope she can rise above the oppressive environments she finds in Chicago - the golden city of opportunity.

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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

[ Edited ]

Am back from a few days of enjoying the Fourth of July in Vermont.  Saw the fireworks in Stowe for the first time since I last did it with my husband and family -- we had done it there for many years.  The display had changed its venue from Spruce Peak to the community park across from the Swim Club, so I think that helped ease the memories.  As in the past, it was a pretty display -- especially for a relatively small community, albeit a vacation destination.

 

People there said the one over the Lake Champlain waterfront in Burlington is worth the hassle, but we didn't find or create the energy to tackle getting there.  It was so easy and so pleasant in Stowe, however.

 

Back to Sister Carrie.

 

I have enjoyed all the comments each of you has been posting! 

 

Some of what Dreiser leaves unsaid, perhaps assumes his readers know, may be as interesting to consider for today's reader, as what he writes.  He has given us very little about Carrie's family, but I imagine that neither that family nor the community in which they lived had much to offer Carrie.  Her sister may well have "escaped" in the traditional way for women, by marriage.  That sister and her husband seemingly offered a way for Carrie to be "allowed" to leave.  One doesn't have a sense of a family that could be supportive of adventure or of seeking more than an existence living via hard work.  At a time when a large portion of the population was still engaged in agriculture, her parents were probably either farmers or farm workers; they may well have come from the peasant populations of Europe, but Dreiser engages in little exploration of the impact of the past. Like America herself, his story and its characters look forward. Carrie is young and somewhat a dreamer; marriage seems so taken for granted as the standard relationship between a man and a woman that she naively scarcely seems to be able to put a name to the situation in which she finds herself.  That the reader can do so must have been part of what made the book scandalous when printed. 

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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dulcinea3
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

Welcome back, Pepper!  I'm glad that you had a pleasant holiday and were able to revisit a scene that had fond memories for you.  I remember that my parents went to Stowe once or twice, and stayed at the Trapp Family Lodge.  I was never there, but was fascinated by the connection to The Sound of Music!  I watched my town fireworks from my patio (what I could see of them over the ever-taller trees between the venue and my condo), and now have mosquito-bite-covered hands and ankles.  But it was nice, because last year the town couldn't afford them and I wasn't getting my hopes up that there would be a display this year.

 

That is an interesting speculative analysis of Carrie's family background.  It makes a lot of sense.  Even with the hard times and privations that Carrie experiences in Chicago, she certainly does not want to go back home.  Although I suspect it is more because of what she hopes will happen in Chicago, rather than that her existence there so far is much better than at home.  As you say, looking forward rather than back.  I don't think that Carrie's sister is even so sure how to think of what Carrie leaves their home for.  Her husband seems to have a pretty good idea, however.

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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

Hi Pepper, your Fourth of July sounds very restful.

 

After 20 years of playing Tchaikovsy's "1812 Overture" I can do it with my eyes closed. If you ever get to visit Boston on the Fourth, the violinist in the first row with her eyes closed will be me. 

 

Carrie's family background is interesting primarily because Dreiser tells us nothing of it.

 

Minnie and Hanson didn’t invite Carrie to live with them out of familial kindness; they hoped to profit from her by charging her rent. To them, Carrie is a customer, not a family member.

 

This financial arrangement is pathetic because the $4 rent money isn’t enough to make much of a difference in their bare-bones existence. When Carrie can’t pay her rent, they want her to leave.

 

Drouet’s offer of money teaches Carrie' a vital lesson. His money is tinged with something other than simple compassion. The $20 gives him the opportunity to touch her hand. Once he presses the two $10 bills in her hand, Carrie feels bound to him by a "strange tie of affection."  

 

Drouet has purchased the right for physical intimacy with Carrie. By taking Drouet's money, Carrie implicitly sets her cost at exactly twenty dollars. She wants to hide her new living arrangements from Minnie and Hanson because she’s partly aware that she is selling herself.

 

Drouet's follow-up installments seal the contract... he buys her fancy clothes and takes her out. In return, she moves in with him and becomes his mistress. Stripped of all the trappings, the relationship between Drouet and Carrie is one of prostitution.

 

More interesting to me is that Carrie is paid far more for her body than she is for her labor; the lesson that Carrie is learning is that in this world, a woman's most marketable product is her body.

IBIS

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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

Just did a bit of searching on Sister Carrie.  Plan to do more in the days ahead, but this site seemed too good not to share: Dreiser Web SourcePerhaps we can share tidbits or call them to each other's attention -- there is a lot here.

 

Below is a picture of Sister Emma -- thus she signed her letters to her brother and the name of our novel emerged.  I have probably just disproved my hypotheses about Sister Carrie's background; Carrie's story is clearly based on that of Dreiser's sister.  In fact, visit these sites AFTER you finish reading if you don't know the plot and want to avoid "spoilers."

 

Sister Emma

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

Drouet's follow-up installments seal the contract... he buys her fancy clothes and takes her out. In return, she moves in with him and becomes his mistress. Stripped of all the trappings, the relationship between Drouet and Carrie is one of prostitution.

 

However, in speaking of naming the status of Carrie, I submit it would be more accurate to call her a "kept woman" than a "prostitute," i.e., she was not per se actively selling her body, but was willing to provide sexual favors in return for decent care and material well being.  (Certainly Minnie was married, but just how different were her material dependancies?  Or consider Rachel, the prostitute in Bel-Ami, versus George Duroy, housed by Madame de Marelle, for a very different twist on this old story, prurient to puritanical sensibilities.)

 

Reading the short synopsis of relationships in the shoe factory reminds me so much of the stories in Factory Girls, tales of modern day women working in the factories of China. 

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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tj_happygirl
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

I guess I have read a little ahead of these plans. Oops!

I haven't read this before. And I'm a little inexperienced for words.

For me, I didn't really think of her as a prostitute. Seems she is just out of school and on her own( for the most part, especially by the way her sister treats her). I hadn't read into it the sex side of it (may be from my own naive).  With the way the story gives little to lead up to her parents sending her out, and the relationship she has with her sister--- It is no wonder she was easily ready for a rescue. 

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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

It’s fascinating to see the exact economic circumstances of Chicago circa 1900 replay itself in today’s international scene.

 

For example, China’s undergoing huge-scale industrialization and urbanization. This 21st Century  industrial revolution propels millions of rural citizens from less developed provinces as Sichuan and Human into prosperous cities like Shanghai and Guangzhou.

 

The young girls in “Factory Girls” mirror Carrie’s similar economic status… numerous Carrie-like young women flock to these big cities. They too want to accumulate money for their material well-being.

 

 


Peppermill wrote:

 

Reading the short synopsis of relationships in the shoe factory reminds me so much of the stories in Factory Girls, tales of modern day women working in the factories of China. 


 

 

IBIS

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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

I just picked up the book last night, started reading, and got through Chapter 7.  I hope to get some additional chapters read tonight.  So far, I've really enjoyed the book.  It's not that "tough" of a read (as other classics are), and I enjoy how the author, through Carrie's eyes, tells us about society during that time. 

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IBIS
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Re: Sister Carrie -- Chapters I-XI (7/1-7/10/2010)

[ Edited ]

JediHanson,

 

I agree that specific details seen through Carrie's eyes makes 1900 Chicago so fully alive to us.  

 

Because Dreiser was a journalist, “Sister Carrie” is full of specific details that reveal his journalist training. For example, the novel is grounded in economic details,… at many points an exact dollar amount is named.

 

Regardless of whether she is at work, out shopping, at home or on the street, Carrie lives in a world of prices. Her labor costs exactly $4.50 a week; room and board costs $4.00 a week; car fare costs 60 cents a week;  lunch costs 10 cents; and so on.

 

 


JediHanson wrote:

(SNIP) ... and I enjoy how the author, through Carrie's eyes, tells us about society during that time. 


 

 

IBIS

"I am a part of everything that I have read."