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carusmm
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer


chad wrote:

 


carusmm wrote:

Theory in the singular is a misnomer.  It is a harsh rule of science that few theories pass examination and the rest fail.  Religion refuses examination by being certain of everything.  If Martin Luther was right about one thing, it was his belief that reason was the snake in the Garden.  For this reason, the religio must be irrational all the time, it is the safeguard of his faith.


Can you answer the question: Is language alive? The muses are waiting.

 

Chad

 

PS- I'll post "The Buddha and Afghanistan" up on the current events board.

 


God is dead, language is dead: no-one believes in them anymore, prayers and books are only for the insane nowadays.  The sane get a facelift, not books.

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chad
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer

 

Carusmm wrote:

 

"God is dead, language is dead: no-one believes in them anymore, prayers and books are only for the insane nowadays.  The sane get a facelift, not books."

 

Well, "The Iliad" could never be more timely- to the muses then!

 

Chad

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carusmm
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer


chad wrote:

 

Carusmm wrote:

 

"God is dead, language is dead: no-one believes in them anymore, prayers and books are only for the insane nowadays.  The sane get a facelift, not books."

 

Well, "The Iliad" could never be more timely- to the muses then!

 

Chad


To the muses, may they flutter on our flutes.

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chad
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The poet and the muses

Carusmm wrote:

 

"To the muses, may they flutter on our flutes."

 

Well, the B&N edition and other editions of "The Iliad" mention that the story is a product of oral tradition, which eventually became "fixed" in a written text, like the one were reading now. And perhaps some, or all, of the story dies when it becomes fixed in writing- I think this contrary to what people usually think about writing. Anyway, written language usually gives the impression that language itself is not alive- its a bunch of fixed symbols on paper, a computer, a Nookie or an Ipad, as the case may be. I'm not sure if a written version of "The Iliad" without a poet appealing to the muses in the beginning exists. But an oral version of the story, or an oral tradition, might better convey the sentiment "that language is alive" as the audience watches the poet, or the bard, appeal to a higher power or a force outside of herself/ himself to tell a story. And maybe there is one...

 

But, that "language is alive" is a topic I've touched upon in some other posts and I've found one website if you're interested:

 

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1212

 

I'm not sure that one will help. There are also intellectual debates on when language becomes dead or extinct, and also differing opinions on the definition of "language."

 

In my opinion, it's interesting to ask if one form of communication, written or verbal, is more alive than the other and/or if language has a will of its own, like a muse, and so on.... 

 

 

Chad

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carusmm
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Re: The poet and the muses

[ Edited ]

chad wrote:

Carusmm wrote:

 

"To the muses, may they flutter on our flutes."

 

Well, the B&N edition and other editions of "The Iliad" mention that the story is a product of oral tradition, which eventually became "fixed" in a written text, like the one were reading now. And perhaps some, or all, of the story dies when it becomes fixed in writing- I think this contrary to what people usually think about writing. Anyway, written language usually gives the impression that language itself is not alive- its a bunch of fixed symbols on paper, a computer, a Nookie or an Ipad, as the case may be. I'm not sure if a written version of "The Iliad" without a poet appealing to the muses in the beginning exists. But an oral version of the story, or an oral tradition, might better convey the sentiment "that language is alive" as the audience watches the poet, or the bard, appeal to a higher power or a force outside of herself/ himself to tell a story. And maybe there is one...

 

But, that "language is alive" is a topic I've touched upon in some other posts and I've found one website if you're interested:

 

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1212

 

I'm not sure that one will help. There are also intellectual debates on when language becomes dead or extinct, and also differing opinions on the definition of "language."

 

In my opinion, it's interesting to ask if one form of communication, written or verbal, is more alive than the other and/or if language has a will of its own, like a muse, and so on.... 

 

 

Chad


It could be said that language has no meaning without a receiver like art.  It could be said that a storyteller gifts language to their audience and makes them better or worse than before; and that a story is either a wooden horse or a odyssey.

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chad
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The poet, the muses and Mark Twain

I added the following comment to the website I gave above:

 

If you want to follow Mark Twain's thinking, then language is a "captured" force that orginates from the Big Bang (i.e. the universe's beginning). Albeit, human language comprises a small part of all the forces that are still at work in the universe. But if you consider the human to be a "captured force" of the universe, then you could consider human language to be as alive as much as the human is alive.

 

Ancient civilzation thinking is kind of interesting. The muses were something you appealed to, not something you captured. People still pray to a God, the muses are more specific....

 

 

Chad

 

 

 

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carusmm
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Re: The poet, the muses and Mark Twain


chad wrote:

I added the following comment to the website I gave above:

 

If you want to follow Mark Twain's thinking, then language is a "captured" force that orginates from the Big Bang (i.e. the universe's beginning). Albeit, human language comprises a small part of all the forces that are still at work in the universe. But if you consider the human to be a "captured force" of the universe, then you could consider human language to be as alive as much as the human is alive.

 

Ancient civilzation thinking is kind of interesting. The muses were something you appealed to, not something you captured. People still pray to a God, the muses are more specific....

 

 

Chad

 

 

 


I have never disagreed with Twain before, can you clarify his thoughts on language for me please?  I do not want to go off half-cocked and shoot him down for no reason.

 

Also, the muses are female, and love men by the looks of it.

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carusmm
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Re: The poet, the muses and Mark Twain


carusmm wrote:

chad wrote:

I added the following comment to the website I gave above:

 

If you want to follow Mark Twain's thinking, then language is a "captured" force that orginates from the Big Bang (i.e. the universe's beginning). Albeit, human language comprises a small part of all the forces that are still at work in the universe. But if you consider the human to be a "captured force" of the universe, then you could consider human language to be as alive as much as the human is alive.

 

Ancient civilzation thinking is kind of interesting. The muses were something you appealed to, not something you captured. People still pray to a God, the muses are more specific....

 

 

Chad

 

 

 


I have never disagreed with Twain before, can you clarify his thoughts on language for me please?  I do not want to go off half-cocked and shoot him down for no reason.

 

Also, the muses are female, and love men by the looks of it.


I can wait no longer.  Only the effete play captive to their muse, manly men seize the muse and hold her against her will, for writing is an affair and not a love match.

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carusmm
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Re: The poet, the muses and Mark Twain

I am still struggling with the question: is language alive or dead?  Can it not be both?  It lives with us and it is lost in the past.

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carusmm
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Re: The poet, the muses and Mark Twain

Can language not be an albatross around the neck at times, and at other times wild and free?

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chad
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Re: The poet, the muses and Mark Twain

Does language act of its own accord, iike a muse?- this question may be more relevant to Huck Finn, but somewhat relevant here, as well, as people have struggled over generations to get to the true story of Troy.

 

Chad

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carusmm
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Re: The poet, the muses and Mark Twain


chad wrote:

Does language act of its own accord, iike a muse?- this question may be more relevant to Huck Finn, but somewhat relevant here, as well, as people have struggled over generations to get to the true story of Troy.

 

Chad


Is man not the master of language, the master of himself?  If he has no control, he produces nonsense like a mathematician would fear, like a scientist would fear.  Therefore, does not man put chains upon himself?  Is man in bondage to his chains?  No.  Therefore man is free and his muse also.

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ARMYRANGER
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer


chad wrote:

 

Join me shortly for the classic story about gods, goddesses, Greeks, Trojans, and a large horse artfully wheeled into the walls of Troy in Homer's, "The Iliad!"

 

 

The story of the Trojan Horse is not told in Homer's Iliad.  The Iliad ends with the death of Hector, approximately 1 year before the fall of Troy.  That story is told in Virgil's Aeneid when Aeneas relates to Dido how the city fell to the Greeks.

 

 

 


 

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chad
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer


ARMYRANGER wrote:

chad wrote:

 

Join me shortly for the classic story about gods, goddesses, Greeks, Trojans, and a large horse artfully wheeled into the walls of Troy in Homer's, "The Iliad!"

 

 

The story of the Trojan Horse is not told in Homer's Iliad.  The Iliad ends with the death of Hector, approximately 1 year before the fall of Troy.  That story is told in Virgil's Aeneid when Aeneas relates to Dido how the city fell to the Greeks.

 

 

 


 


 

 

It is, but indirectly, I think. there are some allusions to the Trojan horse apparently, and the Trojans are referred to as the "horse tamers" in the first couple of books of "The Illiad." Moving to "The Aeneid" from here might be interesting.

 

But, Armyranger, maybe we should begin with "horse training technology" and why the city of Troy may have been a "walled" city....?

 

Chad

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carusmm
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer


chad wrote:

ARMYRANGER wrote:

chad wrote:

 

Join me shortly for the classic story about gods, goddesses, Greeks, Trojans, and a large horse artfully wheeled into the walls of Troy in Homer's, "The Iliad!"

 

 

The story of the Trojan Horse is not told in Homer's Iliad.  The Iliad ends with the death of Hector, approximately 1 year before the fall of Troy.  That story is told in Virgil's Aeneid when Aeneas relates to Dido how the city fell to the Greeks.

 

 

 


 


 

 

It is, but indirectly, I think. there are some allusions to the Trojan horse apparently, and the Trojans are referred to as the "horse tamers" in the first couple of books of "The Illiad." Moving to "The Aeneid" from here might be interesting.

 

But, Armyranger, maybe we should begin with "horse training technology" and why the city of Troy may have been a "walled" city....?

 

Chad


Who is to be the tamer of men because horses are rather stupid?

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chad
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer


carusmm wrote:

chad wrote:

ARMYRANGER wrote:

chad wrote:

 

Join me shortly for the classic story about gods, goddesses, Greeks, Trojans, and a large horse artfully wheeled into the walls of Troy in Homer's, "The Iliad!"

 

 

The story of the Trojan Horse is not told in Homer's Iliad.  The Iliad ends with the death of Hector, approximately 1 year before the fall of Troy.  That story is told in Virgil's Aeneid when Aeneas relates to Dido how the city fell to the Greeks.

 

 

 


 


 

 

It is, but indirectly, I think. there are some allusions to the Trojan horse apparently, and the Trojans are referred to as the "horse tamers" in the first couple of books of "The Illiad." Moving to "The Aeneid" from here might be interesting.

 

But, Armyranger, maybe we should begin with "horse training technology" and why the city of Troy may have been a "walled" city....?

 

Chad


Who is to be the tamer of men because horses are rather stupid?


The breeding and training of horses are, more or less, eastern developments that gradually moved westward. That includes the breeding and training of horses for military uses, like the chariot. Did some of this knowledge and technology become contained in ancient cities like Troy? Probably, if you read Jules Verne's "Journey to the Center of the Earth!":smileyvery-happy:

 

Chad

 

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carusmm
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer

[ Edited ]

The breakdown of order within a beseiged city like Troy which depended on a nobility for leadership requires tight order on the part of the beseiging army to affect.  But once done, victory is near for the beseiger,  The beseiged must show the utmost ruthlessness at all times to all internal disturbances if the beseiged are to survive.  The Iliad shows itself to be a fantasy because of this.

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chad
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer

[ Edited ]

carusmm wrote:

The breakdown of order within a beseiged city like Troy which depended on a nobility for leadership requires tight order on the part of the beseiging army to affect.  But once done, victory is near for the beseiger,  The beseiged must show the utmost ruthlessness at all times to all internal disturbances if the beseiged are to survive.  The Iliad shows itself to be a fantasy because of this.


I'm kind of thinking about internal strife within Troy, but also about "the horse" at the center or the beginning of east/west tensions. And "the Homeric question" is a question of location: does the story contain eastern elements? Moreover, Troy is located to the east of Greece.

 

Amazing though- the horse replaced years later by the automobile, and ancient east/west conflicts now replaced by east/west conflicts over oil. A "horse on wheels" seems ironic and also a little prophetic, I think....

 

Chad

 

PS-Other tech sharing pfoblems between east/west are still around....

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carusmm
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer

The Homeric question in the case of hostilities between East and West is: who exactly is the 'barbarian'?  Because high opinion counts for nothing in war, war levels everything back to the primitive.

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chad
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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer

The Homeric question in the case of hostilities between East and West is: who exactly is the 'barbarian'?  Because high opinion counts for nothing in war, war levels everything back to the primitive

 


Indubitably. More specifcally, the Homeric question is whether Homer was the actual author of "The Iliad." Portions of "The Iliad" resemble Yugoslav poetry, the former Yugoslavia being, of course, between eastern and western civilizations....

 

Chad