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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer


chad wrote:

The Homeric question in the case of hostilities between East and West is: who exactly is the 'barbarian'?  Because high opinion counts for nothing in war, war levels everything back to the primitive

 


Indubitably. More specifcally, the Homeric question is whether Homer was the actual author of "The Iliad." Portions of "The Iliad" resemble Yugoslav poetry, the former Yugoslavia being, of course, between eastern and western civilizations....

 

Chad 


You have got me there.  I am damned if I know.

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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer

[ Edited ]

carusmm wrote:

chad wrote:

The Homeric question in the case of hostilities between East and West is: who exactly is the 'barbarian'?  Because high opinion counts for nothing in war, war levels everything back to the primitive

 


Indubitably. More specifcally, the Homeric question is whether Homer was the actual author of "The Iliad." Portions of "The Iliad" resemble Yugoslav poetry, the former Yugoslavia being, of course, between eastern and western civilizations....

 

Chad 


You have got me there.  I am damned if I know.


"Homeric songs describe innumerous Balkan tribes who defended Ilios from Achaeans (using Hittite words for Ilios and Achaeans).  Therefore Illyrians might have been named not according to their ethnic makeup or linguistic background but according to the side they took in the Trojan war.  (The name Illyrus could mean the founder of Ilios.)  Various Greek gods in Iliad can be explained through the inherited Indo-European words of Albanian (Illyrian) language.  Therefore Greeks translated Iliad from Illyrian sources while Illyrians must have copied their texts from the Hittites."

 

You learn something new every day, though I still believe that Homer wrote down the Iliad on his own.  I believe Jesus existed, so what would I know?  It is largely unimportant anyway.

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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer


carusmm wrote:

carusmm wrote:

chad wrote:

The Homeric question in the case of hostilities between East and West is: who exactly is the 'barbarian'?  Because high opinion counts for nothing in war, war levels everything back to the primitive

 


Indubitably. More specifcally, the Homeric question is whether Homer was the actual author of "The Iliad." Portions of "The Iliad" resemble Yugoslav poetry, the former Yugoslavia being, of course, between eastern and western civilizations....

 

Chad 


You have got me there.  I am damned if I know.


"Homeric songs describe innumerous Balkan tribes who defended Ilios from Achaeans (using Hittite words for Ilios and Achaeans).  Therefore Illyrians might have been named not according to their ethnic makeup or linguistic background but according to the side they took in the Trojan war.  (The name Illyrus could mean the founder of Ilios.)  Various Greek gods in Iliad can be explained through the inherited Indo-European words of Albanian (Illyrian) language.  Therefore Greeks translated Iliad from Illyrian sources while Illyrians must have copied their texts from the Hittites."

 

You learn something new every day, though I still believe that Homer wrote down the Iliad on his own.  I believe Jesus existed, so what would I know?  It is largely unimportant anyway.


Well. the story of a large horse wheeled into a wall city kind of makes sense when knowledge about horse training was so advantageous to ancient cultures, in war, among other things. There are also reports (on the web) that this type of knowledge was contained, sold to each other, and so on- I'm not sure how accurate they are..... 

 

Anyway, the poet mentions the horses on both sides of the Trojan war  And, in the first couple of books, the poet mentions one side perhaps having an advantage in horse training and the other as having an advantage in horse breeding- I'll have to post some quotes later...But it's as if the two sides were equally matched in "horse techonology"- thus far, that is.

 

So, if I want to laud the Greek culture, then, as a poet, I might remove the dirty trick of the Greeks and present a story of honor and courage, and also place them as equals in horse knowledge.Similarly, if I want to laud the Roman culture, I might begiin with the trick of the Greeks and continue on from there....

 

It does depend on how view the Greeks and  the Trojans vis-a-vis the Trojan horse. That is, do you view the Greeks as something dishonorable, artful, crafty, cunning, intelligent, and so on...

Moreover, do you view the Trojans as something less intelligent, vain, honorable, etc.....

 

Chad

 

 

 

 

  

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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer

"Can it be that you still want gold, the ransom some horse-taming Trojan brings out of Troy to pay for his captured son whom I or some other Achaen bound and led away?"- King Agamemnon, p.25 Book II

 

"But tell me, O Muse, who was by far the best man and which horses were best in the army that followed the sons of Atreus. The finest horses by far were the mares of Pheres' son Admetus, that his son Eumelus drove, horses swift as birds, of the same color and age,, and so equal in height that a line would be quite level across their backs." the poet p.39, Book II 

 

Chad

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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer

Wooden horses are the playthings of children.

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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer

Carussmm wrote:

 

" Wooden horses are the playthings of children."

 


 

Yeah, so are toy soldiers. :smileyvery-happy:

 

Well, let's continue on..... there is a difference between horse breeding and horse training however. (the Kentucky Derby is coming up, by the way, do you watch some of our American garb?) I have not heard too much on how the Romans and Greeks regarded one versus the other. 

 

But, when I view a horse race, I usually think it's the horse that wins the race, not the jockey or the breeder, the horse trainers, vets, and so on.... there are obviously a lot of people involved in the horse race. And you might be able to class or categorize each aforementioned group by wealth or money(you probably wouldn't want to do this) But sometimes mythology is viewed as one large class struggle between gods and goddesses, romans and greeks, etc. Can we attribute some our modern wealth distribution problems to horse breeding, training etc, that began centuries ago?

 

A particular strain or a breed of horse is easier to contain than training knowledge, I think, interestingly....

 

Chad

    

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Re: "The Iliad" by Homer


chad wrote:

Carussmm wrote:

 

" Wooden horses are the playthings of children."

 


 

Yeah, so are toy soldiers. :smileyvery-happy:

 

Well, let's continue on..... there is a difference between horse breeding and horse training however. (the Kentucky Derby is coming up, by the way, do you watch some of our American garb?) I have not heard too much on how the Romans and Greeks regarded one versus the other. 

 

But, when I view a horse race, I usually think it's the horse that wins the race, not the jockey or the breeder, the horse trainers, vets, and so on.... there are obviously a lot of people involved in the horse race. And you might be able to class or categorize each aforementioned group by wealth or money(you probably wouldn't want to do this) But sometimes mythology is viewed as one large class struggle between gods and goddesses, romans and greeks, etc. Can we attribute some our modern wealth distribution problems to horse breeding, training etc, that began centuries ago?

 

A particular strain or a breed of horse is easier to contain than training knowledge, I think, interestingly....

 

Chad

    


 

Man and horse are an excuse for a frolic.

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Journey to the Illiad

So, If you read "Journey to the Center of the Earth" by Jules Verne, then you might come to the conclusion that our history is simply about an eruption of knowledge and/or technology, and cosequent human tendency or a tendency on the part of civilization to contain knowledge and technology for their advantage and profit. For example, we live in era with public libraries, but we also in an era where technology, and I'm thinking military technology in particular, is not readily shared for obvious reasons. And if you think about heros in this era or in the bronze age, perhaps the only hero that ever could possibly exist in this kind of world history would be an unlikely hero like Professor Lidenbrock, who dug beneath layers of knowledge to find the center of the earth, who also stood like the staue of Rhodes in the novel but was not perhaps an Ajax, or an Achilles or a Hector, But heroes like these were needed in the Bronze age, just like they are needed in this era. And maybe I, as a poet. would want to focus on heroes like them, rather than the Trojan horse- a horse which perhaps represents an infiltration of knowledge. So, again the entire story, I think, indirectly related to the Trojan Horse.

 

Chad

 

PS- Perhaps some of the characters of our own modern language(s) were indeed once characters of encryption 

 

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Re: Journey to the Illiad


chad wrote:

So, If you read "Journey to the Center of the Earth" by Jules Verne, then you might come to the conclusion that our history is simply about an eruption of knowledge and/or technology, and cosequent human tendency or a tendency on the part of civilization to contain knowledge and technology for their advantage and profit. For example, we live in era with public libraries, but we also in an era where technology, and I'm thinking military technology in particular, is not readily shared for obvious reasons. And if you think about heros in this era or in the bronze age, perhaps the only hero that ever could possibly exist in this kind of world history would be an unlikely hero like Professor Lidenbrock, who dug beneath layers of knowledge to find the center of the earth, who also stood like the staue of Rhodes in the novel but was not perhaps an Ajax, or an Achilles or a Hector, But heroes like these were needed in the Bronze age, just like they are needed in this era. And maybe I, as a poet. would want to focus on heroes like them, rather than the Trojan horse- a horse which perhaps represents an infiltration of knowledge. So, again the entire story, I think, indirectly related to the Trojan Horse.

 

Chad

 

PS- Perhaps some of the characters of our own modern language(s) were indeed once characters of encryption 

 



Interesting, Chad.

 

I think that we can rule out eruptions as events in human history, the story is one of small step-by-step discoveries that have lead to a giant leap in progress..  If man can do anything to better himself, he could be more open to ideas and logical about them.  As it is, we are only running at half capacity in science and the arts because of ethics.  This is as it should be.  But then I am basically a conservative man, for real breakthroughs you need someone much more radical like Odysseus with his dogged determination and will to win.  If you give the likes of him all that you have got, you will win, but at what cost?  Conservative men down through the ages have rather liked the status quo until shown something better and different.  We need men of genius, and we need also objective judgement.  As the Bible says, there is a time to dance and a time to put away foolish things: when all learning was in the hands of elites, it was not a time to dance.

 

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Re: Journey to the Illiad

[ Edited ]

"I think that we can rule out eruptions as events in human history, the story is one of small step-by-step discoveries that have lead to a giant leap in progress."

 

I don't know, Carusmm, I can definitely see Verne's viewpoint. You could look at human history more broadly and consider eruptions to be religion, or philosophy, science or possibly economics rather than smaller discoveries or revelations within each area. And I can also see each of the aforementioned areas as something that either contains itself, or other areas. I think I mentioned Darwin's "Origin of Species", sometimes used for economic justification, or perhaps the knowledge of the the classical languages, like Latin or Greek, where perhaps only a handful or a minority during "the dark ages" knew them, and then of course, "the enlightenment." Perhaps the "dead" languages. like Latin or Greek, were once used for encryption themselves. But I was wondering if some letters and numbers in any modern language were once used specifically for encryption- that is, to contain knowledge- it's definitely something we don't want to know about ourselves. Homer probably knew this and began with a trick by Zeus, by the way. But maybe this is a linguistics discussion....

 

 

Chad

 

 

PS- DNA is string of codes, so encryption is perhaps who and what we are.  But this is a macabre viewpoint- I think humaity has to be more than that.....:smileywink:

 

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Re: Journey to the Illiad

Not according to Richard Dawkins is man more than his DNA.  He is a true rationalist which means that he is a doctrinaire meat axe.  Anyway, enough of Dorkins.  I think that we should leave the Big Bangs to the physicists, let them be confused.  But that is not to say that disruptions and flowerings be not in human history.  It would be foolish of me not to recognise their existence. Nevertheless, it would be even more foolish not to recognise that change does not come of itself all of a sudden like magic, it comes from seeds, many seeds.

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Re: Journey to the Illiad


carusmm wrote:

Not according to Richard Dawkins is man more than his DNA.  He is a true rationalist which means that he is a doctrinaire meat axe.  Anyway, enough of Dorkins.  I think that we should leave the Big Bangs to the physicists, let them be confused.  But that is not to say that disruptions and flowerings be not in human history.  It would be foolish of me not to recognise their existence. Nevertheless, it would be even more foolish not to recognise that change does not come of itself all of a sudden like magic, it comes from seeds, many seeds.


 

I wonder what his opinion is on cloning. There are always arguments about the ethics of cloning and gene manipulation. Horse beeding and what I think is "horse cloning" is lauded in "The Illiad", by the by. But "The Illiad" is not just about horses and also leaves one big Trojan horse out....  


Chad

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Re: Journey to the Illiad


chad wrote:

carusmm wrote:

Not according to Richard Dawkins is man more than his DNA.  He is a true rationalist which means that he is a doctrinaire meat axe.  Anyway, enough of Dorkins.  I think that we should leave the Big Bangs to the physicists, let them be confused.  But that is not to say that disruptions and flowerings be not in human history.  It would be foolish of me not to recognise their existence. Nevertheless, it would be even more foolish not to recognise that change does not come of itself all of a sudden like magic, it comes from seeds, many seeds.


 

I wonder what his opinion is on cloning. There are always arguments about the ethics of cloning and gene manipulation. Horse beeding and what I think is "horse cloning" is lauded in "The Illiad", by the by. But "The Illiad" is not just about horses and also leaves one big Trojan horse out....  


Chad


Dawkins' opinion on anything is irrelevant.  The man is an ass.

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Re: Journey to the Illiad

"Dawkins' opinion on anything is irrelevant.  The man is an ass."

 

Well, sometimes I think Dawkins has to take the contrary opinion to creationism. But there are teleological arguments in evolutionary biology as well as in creationism.

 

Chad

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Re: Journey to the Illiad


chad wrote:

"Dawkins' opinion on anything is irrelevant.  The man is an ass."

 

Well, sometimes I think Dawkins has to take the contrary opinion to creationism. But there are teleological arguments in evolutionary biology as well as in creationism.

 

Chad


Germaine Greer is contrary, Richard Dawkins is civil virtue in fancy dress.  The Universe bears no purpose.

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Re: Journey to the Illiad

I'm not too familiar with Germain Greer or Dawkins- everyone has to make a living. My quick web survey gave me a somewhat contradictory impression of Dawkins position. 

 

I'm writing novel that is kind of about this subject- its more or less an entertaining fictional story though. Anyway, I hope it helps, when and if it gets published.....

 

Chad

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Re: Journey to the Illiad

Good luck with the novel, Chad.


chad wrote:

I'm not too familiar with Germain Greer or Dawkins- everyone has to make a living. My quick web survey gave me a somewhat contradictory impression of Dawkins position. 

 

I'm writing novel that is kind of about this subject- its more or less an entertaining fictional story though. Anyway, I hope it helps, when and if it gets published.....

 

Chad


 

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Re: Journey to the Illiad

Thanks. I have to admit it's been more fun than I thought it ever would be. It's also a little different than most novels, but its entertaining and hopefully has some meaning- It should go to the publisher late this year or early next, if all goes well.....

 

Chad  

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Re: Journey to the Iliad

Well, there is a reference to encryption in Book VI- the use of a code instructing the intended reciever to kill the bearer... in the story of Bellerophon....

 

Chad

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Re: Journey to the Iliad: encryption

[ Edited ]

That language is, in part, something that humans were not meant to understand (i.e. encryption codes) is significant, I think. But we need more information, as always, and about codes no less....

 

Chad