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DeanGibson
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Exchange paper book for eBook ???

[ Edited ]

OK, I've been thinking about this crazy idea for a couple weeks:

 

Suppose you would like to replace many of your paper books, with eBook version on your Nook.  Clearly you could buy a new eBook version at the regular price, and then:

 

  1. give the paper book away;
  2. sell it at a used book store; or
  3. donate it to a library.

The economics of the above (especially #1) don't scale very well for someone with many paper books.  However, suppose you could "return" the paper book to a book store, and then for (say) $1.99 obtain the eBook version?  Who wins?

 

  1. You get the eBook version for a very reasonable price.
  2. The retailer (B&N in this case) gets $1.50 for the eBook sale, and the cost to either destroy the book or return the book to the publisher for same.
  3. The publisher gets $0.49 for adminstrative/licensing costs, and the benefit of removing a "lendable/resalable" book from circulation.
  4. The author also benefits from the latter, but gets no other compensation.
  5. This might also encourage out-of-print books to be re-released as eBooks.

Note that the amount ($1.99 in this case) can't be very high, or there's little motivation for the consumer.

 

Note that Amazon already does a version of this with certain popular movies on media:  I sold my like-new DVD version of "The Sound of Music" for about $5.00 to Amazon (they paid the postage), because I wanted the Blu-Ray version.  Note that the Amazon buy-back is independent of who originally sold the movie, or whether or not you buy a newer/upgraded version.

 

Under my proposal, I certainly wouldn't exchange many of my reference books (particularly newer ones);  those are sometimes easier to use in paper form.  However, I would probably exchange at least a couple dozen other paper books in my paper library.

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kamas716
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Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???

I really don't see this happening.  I know for me, unless it's a marginal book, I wouldn't be doing it.  The book I really like I want to keep in DTB form.  If eBooks ever end up as our property, rather than a lease, I'd be more open to it.

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Wordsmith
moose_tracker
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Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???

I don't see it either, if you can sell the book 2nd hand, then that may go to your purchasing of the new book. But, the publishers are in it for the money, and they really would prefer you to stay with books, then swap over to the ebooks..

 

Something like this did not happen when VHS went to DVD, or Records went to CD went to mp3.. 

 

If you want what you got in a new form, you rebuy it at the full price in the new form. That is where they make money. That is like reading a book (or sharing it with friends) until it is dog-earred, then turning it it to buy a new copy for $1.99.. This may be more along what you get at Annies Book Stop or something, but you are turning in a used book and the for $1.99 more buying a used book in it's place.. But it's been a while since I went to "Annies" I am not even sure if thier buy back & sale of a different used book is that good.

 

Anyway, no one is trying to convince us to "convert" our reading style for some reason.. So there is no incentive for them to offer us some amazing incentive for us to do so, that will cost them big bucks.

DeanGibson
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Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???


moose_tracker wrote: ... So there is no incentive for them to offer us some amazing incentive for us to do so, that will cost them big bucks..

Well, if DRM goes away, I'd agree with that.  However, if not, I think the "lend once" aspect of current eBooks would be a benefit to the publishers over paper books.

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moose_tracker
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Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???

Not really because you can sideload to your close relatives/friends.. (And shhhh.. but it is widely know people strip off the DRM now, to (hopefully *only*) lend to whom the would have normally lent a book to..

Wordsmith
Fred011
Posts: 212
Registered: ‎02-18-2012

Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???


DeanGibson wrote:

OK, I've been thinking about this crazy idea for a couple weeks:

 

Suppose you would like to replace many of your paper books, with eBook version on your Nook.  Clearly you could buy a new eBook version at the regular price, and then:

 

  1. give the paper book away;
  2. sell it at a used book store; or
  3. donate it to a library.

The economics of the above (especially #1) don't scale very well for someone with many paper books.  However, suppose you could "return" the paper book to a book store, and then for (say) $1.99 obtain the eBook version?  Who wins?

 

  1. You get the eBook version for a very reasonable price.
  2. The retailer (B&N in this case) gets $1.50 for the eBook sale, and the cost to either destroy the book or return the book to the publisher for same.
  3. The publisher gets $0.49 for adminstrative/licensing costs, and the benefit of removing a "lendable/resalable" book from circulation.
  4. The author also benefits from the latter, but gets no other compensation.
  5. This might also encourage out-of-print books to be re-released as eBooks.

Note that the amount ($1.99 in this case) can't be very high, or there's little motivation for the consumer.

 

Note that Amazon already does a version of this with certain popular movies on media:  I sold my like-new DVD version of "The Sound of Music" for about $5.00 to Amazon (they paid the postage), because I wanted the Blu-Ray version.  Note that the Amazon buy-back is independent of who originally sold the movie, or whether or not you buy a newer/upgraded version.

 

Under my proposal, I certainly wouldn't exchange many of my reference books (particularly newer ones);  those are sometimes easier to use in paper form.  However, I would probably exchange at least a couple dozen other paper books in my paper library.


Maybe more "wishful thinking" than actually crazy.  I don't see the dealers/publishers wanting to get involved with all of the logistics and accounting work involved for very little return.  However, you did give an example of Amazon's program to purchase old DVDs, so who knows.

 

No here's a really crazy train of thought (most likely derailed).  Think about this folks, just from the legal/ethical perspective.  When you purchase a DTB, what are you actually doing?  You have purchased a legal copy of a copyrighted book. It is yours to access (i.e., read), lend, sell, donate or destroy in perpetuity.

 

For the purchase price you have entered into a contract of sorts with the holder of the copyright (through the distribution channel) where for something of value (your purchase price) you receive something of value in return (a legal copy of the intellectual material granted you by the copyright holder). This legal copy has no restrictions other than not copying any part of the material.  There is no time limit on your "ownership" of your legal copy.

 

You have also, in your purchase of the DTB, purchased some paper, ink, bindings, glue, possibly artwork (under possibly yet another copyright) along with the intellectual property (the wording or ideas written in the book).  So, from the author, you have a single legal copy of his/her intellectual property manifested in the form of a tangible book consisting of paper, ink, bindings, glue, etc.  The copyright is related to the intellectual property, not the paper, ink, bindings, glue, etc., which would not be copyrighted but for the presence and inseparability of the protected intellectual material thereupon.

 

Now, if you destroy you copy, the printed manifestation of the intellectual material, it would seem that you have forsaken your ownership of that legal copy in the act of destroying it.

 

Here's the really crazy idea: what if the copy (i.e., the book) is accidentally destroyed and not accessible anymore: a flooded basement or a fire, not theft because the copy would still exist. You legally purchased a copy of the intellectual material.  Your legal access of that material exists in perpetuity.  You have not forsaken your rights to the material. CAN YOU LEGALLY MAKE AN ELECTRONIC COPY OF THE COPYRIGHTED INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY TO REPLACE THE DESTROYED COPY YOU LEGALLY OWNED?

 

After all, it is the intellectual property that you had the "right" to access in the form of the original book. The paper, ink, etc. no longer exist, but the intellectual property does, and your original purchase included both that property (as a single copy) and the physical materials of the book.

 

My point is that the intellectual property legally purchased and available to your access in perpetuity, has survived the paper and ink manifestation of your copy, but your legal right to access a single copy of the intellectual property had no time limit: it still exists.  If you make an electronic copy, you still have but one copy and in the universe of copies the number does not change since your original copy no longer exists.

 

As I said, think of the legal/ethical issue.  Would the electronic copy be legal,,, ethical?

 

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orb9220
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Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???

CAN YOU LEGALLY MAKE AN ELECTRONIC COPY OF THE COPYRIGHTED INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY TO REPLACE THE DESTROYED COPY YOU LEGALLY OWNED?

 

As I said, think of the legal/ethical issue.  Would the electronic copy be legal,,, ethical?

 

 Intersting questions.  I personally don't care about the legality of the law in so much as long as I honestly purchased a Legal copy of everything I use.

 

Whether it's DVD movies,PC Software,Games to Music CD's and ebooks. I MAKE Copies!

 

DVD movies original copies made and original stored away. Same for PC games,Music,ebooks.

 

As to DRM I strip simple as that from ebooks so I can choose what devices to read them on. PC games cracked boot loader so don't need the original in the cd drive everytime I want to play. That way can have many of my games installed without the worry where did I put that game disk.

 

DVD movies strip away the warnings and forced previews and no skipping to main menu. Now straight to the movie playing. Music I will determine my play order of my Music by ripping to music to MP3's.

 

Also continued use of the originals always a concern of damage or loss for me.

 

All this done as far as I'm concerned fair use. As I paid for the content not how it can or cannot be used. Which includes lending to friends and family. Or lighting it on Fire and lauching it with a Canon Pumpkin Chunker.

 

If they don't like my practice then they can come and get me.

.

 

"All I Know is...Last Night the Tele-Tubbies came out of the wall and Held Me Down while they put Devices in my Head!"
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Doug_Pardee
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Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???

[ Edited ]

Fred011 wrote:

 

For the purchase price you have entered into a contract of sorts with the holder of the copyright (through the distribution channel) where for something of value (your purchase price) you receive something of value in return (a legal copy of the intellectual material granted you by the copyright holder).


This is incorrect. There is no agreement between the copyright holder and you. What you have bought is the physical paper object. The publisher has placed a copy of the copyrighted material on that object, and sold it, based on a contract between the publisher and the copyright holder. Under section 109(a) of the Copyright Act of 1976 (in the US), once the publisher sells the book, neither they nor the copyright holder have any control over the resale or disposal of that object. The exact language reads, "the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord."

 

It's a totally different situation with e-books. You aren't buying a physical object ("particular copy"), and the copyright laws don't provide the consumer with any latitude.

 

It should also be noted that if you have a book that was printed outside of the United States, you cannot legally sell or dispose of it without the copyright owner's permission while within the states of New York, Connecticut, or Vermont. The Second Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that books printed outside the United States weren't "lawfully made under this title" but rather under the copyright laws of the country the book was printed in. Note: last week, the Supreme Court agreed to hear this case, so at some point we'll be getting a nationwide decision... one way or the other.

 

DeanGibson
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Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???

[ Edited ]

Fred011 wrote: ...

 


This is what I was getting at, the conceptual idea (regardless of how the law is actually written to try (or not) to encompass that idea):

 

  1. When you buy a paper book, and then sell it to another, you are (in effect) transferring your license to read it.
  2. When you "buy" software, you are allowed to make a backup copy (but not distribute it).  It makes no sense to be able to make a backup copy, if you can't restore the "original" from the backup copy.  OK, which one is now the "original"?
  3. When you "buy" a B&N eBook, in effect you are buying a license to "access" (download) a copy from B&N's servers, onto up to six Nooks at one time (thus simultaneously used by only close friends/family).  The Nooks are interchangeable for this purpose, and are used for both displaying the content and enforcing the license(s).

I remember the days when software licenses were firt introduced in the PC market.  Then Borland came out with its "No-nonsense" license, which stated that you must "treat the software just like a book".

 

I think most ethical people understand this, and thus I would say that most ethical people would like to consider that they still own a "license" to the material in an accidentally destroyed physical book.  That's why I was fantasizing about an intentional way to transfer that "license" from a paper book to an eBook.

 

Remember a couple decades ago, when you bought some paper books (typically computer technical books), that many of them came with a flap in the back, which contained part or all of the book in electronic format on a CD?

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Fred011
Posts: 212
Registered: ‎02-18-2012

Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???


Doug_Pardee wrote:

Fred011 wrote:

 

For the purchase price you have entered into a contract of sorts with the holder of the copyright (through the distribution channel) where for something of value (your purchase price) you receive something of value in return (a legal copy of the intellectual material granted you by the copyright holder).


This is incorrect. There is no agreement between the copyright holder and you. What you have bought is the physical paper object. The publisher has placed a copy of the copyrighted material on that object, and sold it, based on a contract between the publisher and the copyright holder. Under section 109(a) of the Copyright Act of 1976 (in the US), once the publisher sells the book, neither they nor the copyright holder have any control over the resale or disposal of that object. The exact language reads, "the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord."

 

It's a totally different situation with e-books. You aren't buying a physical object ("particular copy"), and the copyright laws don't provide the consumer with any latitude.

 

It should also be noted that if you have a book that was printed outside of the United States, you cannot legally sell or dispose of it without the copyright owner's permission while within the states of New York, Connecticut, or Vermont. The Second Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that books printed outside the United States weren't "lawfully made under this title" but rather under the copyright laws of the country the book was printed in. Note: last week, the Supreme Court agreed to hear this case, so at some point we'll be getting a nationwide decision... one way or the other.

 


You’ll notice that I used the terms “a contract of sorts” and “through the distribution channel” to indicate no actual contract between the purchaser and the author.  What I was referring to was the fact that something of value (purchase price) was given in return for something of value (the book) with legally binding specific terms (the copyright restrictions on the material).  Those conditions usually define a contract, so the term “a contract of sorts” is not totally incorrect but, if it makes you feel better we can eliminate it.  It is not really that germane to the actual question I was putting forth.

 

Of course I agree that it is the publisher that “placed” a copy of the copyrighted material on the object (the book).  While the book would have been purchased “through the distribution channel”, the copyright protects the author’s actual ownership of the intellectual material and everyone dealing with it (publisher, distributor, retailer, consumer) must, by law, follow the copyright conditions/restrictions regarding how they deal with the copyright holder’s intellectual material.  Your quote of a portion of the actual Act, "the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord.", supports my comments (This legal copy has no restrictions other than not copying any part of the material.  There is no time limit on your "ownership" of your legal copy.).

 

All of the above aside, my post was a solicitation of thoughts on whether owning a copy of a copyrighted work would allow a person to ethically and legally acquire an electronic “replacement” for book copy that was lost due to some form of  casualty loss other than theft. My question was if the “ownership” granted me by the copyright law, as stated above, survived the loss of the physical book and entitled me to continue my access to the intellectual material and would not prohibit an electronic “replacement” of the intellectual material.  After all, it is the intellectual material that is copyrighted, not its specific manifestation. Separate copyright laws are not in place for hardback books, paperbacks, deluxe volumes, etc.  It is the intellectual material that is copyrighted, in whatever form it is produced.

 

Which is a very good segue into your comments that “It's a totally different situation with e-books. You aren't buying a physical object ("particular copy"), and the copyright laws don't provide the consumer with any latitude.” Are you saying there is a different copyright law for e-books? I believe that the law is the same and that the DRM is an additional “layer” applied over and above the copyright protection of intellectual property that the marketers of  electronic manifestations of intellectual properties use to control what would be easy and illegal pirating of the copyrighted intellectual property.  DRM and its restrictions are not the law, but rather a (some think overly restrictive) marketing tool used for the marketers’ own protection.  The legal protection, I believe is the same for a copyright holder in the case of printed and electronic manifestations of their intellectual property.  It is the practical defense of that protection which is difficult to maintain with electronic formats and the DRM has evolved in response to that issue IMHO.