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Doug_Pardee
Posts: 5,522
Kudos: 4,015
Registered: ‎03-09-2010

Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???


Fred011 wrote:

 

What I was referring to was the fact that something of value (purchase price) was given in return for something of value (the book) with legally binding specific terms (the copyright restrictions on the material).


There are no such specific terms. The consumer's contract is with the bookseller, and it's a straightforward money-for-goods transaction. Copyright isn't part of the deal, except by the absence of any permissions being granted.


Fred011 wrote:

 

My question was if the “ownership” granted me by the copyright law, as stated above, survived the loss of the physical book and entitled me to continue my access to the intellectual material and would not prohibit an electronic “replacement” of the intellectual material.


The ownership mentioned is of a "particular copy." When you buy a p-book, you aren't buying any proprietary rights to the copyrighted material. If the particular copy is destroyed, then you own a destroyed copy and nothing else.


Fred011 wrote:

 

Are you saying there is a different copyright law for e-books?


No, I said the situation is different for e-books. The First Sale Doctrine as codified at 17 U.S.C. 109(a) only applies to a "particular copy," which doesn't exist in the general case of e-books.

 

*** I'm done with this argument. It's been waged time and again, and some people refuse to accept the truth. The only reason I replied in the first place was because there was a major new development: the Supreme Court agreeing to hear the Kirtsaeng case. ***

 

Wordsmith
Fred011
Posts: 212
Registered: ‎02-18-2012

Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???


DeanGibson wrote:

Fred011 wrote: ...

 


This is what I was getting at, the conceptual idea (regardless of how the law is actually written to try (or not) to encompass that idea):

 

  1. When you buy a paper book, and then sell it to another, you are (in effect) transferring your license to read it.
  2. When you "buy" software, you are allowed to make a backup copy (but not distribute it).  It makes no sense to be able to make a backup copy, if you can't restore the "original" from the backup copy.  OK, which one is now the "original"?
  3. When you "buy" a B&N eBook, in effect you are buying a license to "access" (download) a copy from B&N's servers, onto up to six Nooks at one time (thus simultaneously used by only close friends/family).  The Nooks are interchangeable for this purpose, and are used for both displaying the content and enforcing the license(s).

I remember the days when software licenses were firt introduced in the PC market.  Then Borland came out with its "No-nonsense" license, which stated that you must "treat the software just like a book".

 

I think most ethical people understand this, and thus I would say that most ethical people would like to consider that they still own a "license" to the material in an accidentally destroyed physical book.  That's why I was fantasizing about an intentional way to transfer that "license" from a paper book to an eBook.

 

Remember a couple decades ago, when you bought some paper books (typically computer technical books), that many of them came with a flap in the back, which contained part or all of the book in electronic format on a CD?


I think we are pretty much on the same page here.  It is the concepts that we are both dealing with: when you start to apply the “practical” application of law or DRM you find that there’s always a “snag”.  There are also competing objectives among the various players in the marketplace.

 

The difference between ownership and usage rights is sometimes a fine line and seems to be delineated in some cases more by marketing than actual law.  I think this is a point we might both be making in slightly different ways.

 

Your points 1 and 2, I agree with .  Point 3 reinforces my thinking that copyright law is far exceeded by marketing “tools” (e.g., DRM) that almost seem to supersede the law for the benefit of the marketer.

Your observations about some of the older approaches to copies and electronic formats being included with some technical manuals are familiar to me also.  I think, as there are more and more products in the marketplace in electronic format, the measures and counter-measures involved in copy protection will increase and the laws will never be fully caught up and in sync.

 

I think your “fantasizing” and my perception of what the copyright grants me in the way of “ownership” are in agreement as far as the conceptual view of what our rights should be under copyright laws.

 

 

 

 

Wordsmith
Fred011
Posts: 212
Registered: ‎02-18-2012

Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???


Doug_Pardee wrote:

Fred011 wrote:

 

What I was referring to was the fact that something of value (purchase price) was given in return for something of value (the book) with legally binding specific terms (the copyright restrictions on the material).


There are no such specific terms. The consumer's contract is with the bookseller, and it's a straightforward money-for-goods transaction. Copyright isn't part of the deal, except by the absence of any permissions being granted.


Fred011 wrote:

 

My question was if the “ownership” granted me by the copyright law, as stated above, survived the loss of the physical book and entitled me to continue my access to the intellectual material and would not prohibit an electronic “replacement” of the intellectual material.


The ownership mentioned is of a "particular copy." When you buy a p-book, you aren't buying any proprietary rights to the copyrighted material. If the particular copy is destroyed, then you own a destroyed copy and nothing else.


Fred011 wrote:

 

Are you saying there is a different copyright law for e-books?


No, I said the situation is different for e-books. The First Sale Doctrine as codified at 17 U.S.C. 109(a) only applies to a "particular copy," which doesn't exist in the general case of e-books.

 

*** I'm done with this argument. It's been waged time and again, and some people refuse to accept the truth. The only reason I replied in the first place was because there was a major new development: the Supreme Court agreeing to hear the Kirtsaeng case. ***

 


Glad you're done, because you are missing the point.

Distinguished Scribe
Ya_Ya
Posts: 3,334
Registered: ‎09-29-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Exchange paper book for eBook ???


Doug_Pardee wrote:

The ownership mentioned is of a "particular copy." When you buy a p-book, you aren't buying any proprietary rights to the copyrighted material. If the particular copy is destroyed, then you own a destroyed copy and nothing else.



This is true in all cases.  When the copy is a paper copy, you have the right to that paper copy and when/if it is lost or destroyed, you have no right to its content unless you purchase another copy.


The same is true of an electronic copy.  You have the right to that electronic copy, nothing else.  And since there's no physical entity, you don't "own" a thing.  

 

Apparently I'm missing the point as well.

DeanGibson
Posts: 2,212
Topics: 92
Kudos: 2,259
Solutions: 18
Registered: ‎04-12-2011
0 Kudos

O'Reilly licensing/DRM policy

[ Edited ]

DeanGibson wrote: ...

Remember a couple decades ago, when you bought some paper books (typically computer technical books), that many of them came with a flap in the back, which contained part or all of the book in electronic format on a CD?


I forgot to add that the license for the CD said that the book and CD were "inseparable" (if you transferred one to a 3rd party, you had to transfer the other as well to the same party), implying (at least to me) that you had one license, implemented in two different media.

 

The O'Reilly paper books originally did the above, but I now note that the paper book and eBook are now "separable":  their recent eBook policy ( http://shop.oreilly.com/category/ebooks.do ):

 

  1. DRM-free.
  2. Lifetime access.
  3. Multiple formats.
  4. Free updates.

Of course, all this is from a technology-aware company.

Nooks: 2 HD+/16GB: B&N 2.2.0 (Android 4.0.4) rooted;
    2 Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted
Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 7.0": Android 4.2.2 rooted
LG G3 & G Pad 8.3 Android 4.4.2 rooted; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
Never suspect intent where incompetence will do.
Wordsmith
doncr
Posts: 493
Registered: ‎12-29-2010
0 Kudos

Re: O'Reilly licensing/DRM policy

You can get a pdf of your book for $1 per 100 pages.  The price increases if you need it to be searchable (OCR), need 600 dpi, color, etc., but it's probably a worthwhile service for some who are looking to digitize their home library.  If you're going to "try before you buy", send them a cheap used book first because they cut the binding off and recycle the pages after scanning and you won't get the book back.

 

www.1dollarscan.com

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,774
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
0 Kudos

Re: O'Reilly licensing/DRM policy


doncr wrote:

You can get a pdf of your book for $1 per 100 pages.  The price increases if you need it to be searchable (OCR), need 600 dpi, color, etc., but it's probably a worthwhile service for some who are looking to digitize their home library.  If you're going to "try before you buy", send them a cheap used book first because they cut the binding off and recycle the pages after scanning and you won't get the book back.

 

www.1dollarscan.com

 


On the surface this sounds like copyright infringement.

Wordsmith
Fred011
Posts: 212
Registered: ‎02-18-2012

Re: O'Reilly licensing/DRM policy


keriflur wrote:

doncr wrote:

You can get a pdf of your book for $1 per 100 pages.  The price increases if you need it to be searchable (OCR), need 600 dpi, color, etc., but it's probably a worthwhile service for some who are looking to digitize their home library.  If you're going to "try before you buy", send them a cheap used book first because they cut the binding off and recycle the pages after scanning and you won't get the book back.

 

www.1dollarscan.com

 


On the surface this sounds like copyright infringement.


Only on the surface? :smileywink:

Wordsmith
Fred011
Posts: 212
Registered: ‎02-18-2012

Re: O'Reilly licensing/DRM policy


DeanGibson wrote:

DeanGibson wrote: ...

Remember a couple decades ago, when you bought some paper books (typically computer technical books), that many of them came with a flap in the back, which contained part or all of the book in electronic format on a CD?


I forgot to add that the license for the CD said that the book and CD were "inseparable" (if you transferred one to a 3rd party, you had to transfer the other as well to the same party), implying (at least to me) that you had one license, implemented in two different media.

 

The O'Reilly paper books originally did the above, but I now note that the paper book and eBook are now "separable":  their recent eBook policy ( http://shop.oreilly.com/category/ebooks.do ):

 

  1. DRM-free.
  2. Lifetime access.
  3. Multiple formats.
  4. Free updates.

Of course, all this is from a technology-aware company.


I'm familiar with O'Reilly and have of their publications. I think their policies are very good and would love to see them become much more common.  However, different market, different policies.

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,774
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
0 Kudos

Re: O'Reilly licensing/DRM policy


Fred011 wrote:

keriflur wrote:

doncr wrote:

You can get a pdf of your book for $1 per 100 pages.  The price increases if you need it to be searchable (OCR), need 600 dpi, color, etc., but it's probably a worthwhile service for some who are looking to digitize their home library.  If you're going to "try before you buy", send them a cheap used book first because they cut the binding off and recycle the pages after scanning and you won't get the book back.

 

www.1dollarscan.com

 


On the surface this sounds like copyright infringement.


Only on the surface? :smileywink:


I have no desire to click through to read more, so I can only comment on the surface.  :smileywink: