Since 1997, you’ve been coming to BarnesandNoble.com to discuss everything from Stephen King to writing to Harry Potter. You’ve made our site more than a place to discover your next book: you’ve made it a community. But like all things internet, BN.com is growing and changing. We've said goodbye to our community message boards—but that doesn’t mean we won’t still be a place for adventurous readers to connect and discover.

Now, you can explore the most exciting new titles (and remember the classics) at the Barnes & Noble Book Blog. Check out conversations with authors like Jeff VanderMeer and Gary Shteyngart at the B&N Review, and browse write-ups of the best in literary fiction. Come to our Facebook page to weigh in on what it means to be a book nerd. Browse digital deals on the NOOK blog, tweet about books with us,or self-publish your latest novella with NOOK Press. And for those of you looking for support for your NOOK, the NOOK Support Forums will still be here.

We will continue to provide you with books that make you turn pages well past midnight, discover new worlds, and reunite with old friends. And we hope that you’ll continue to tell us how you’re doing, what you’re reading, and what books mean to you.

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flyingtoastr
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Re: Speaking of exceptions...

Let's get really pedantic here and start calling DTB's their actual technical designation: codices.

 

"My that's a nice codex you have there, m'am".

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deesy58
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Re: So the world has gone paperless after all?


bobstro wrote:

Since I quoted the comment, I believe that you did make it.  :smileywink:

 

I have no idea what you believe to be reality. What I wrote is in this thread.


I used the "Quote" button on this forum.  Are you suggesting that it does not accurately copy quoted material into a post?  Have you notified B&N of your suspicions? 

 

Do you believe that you have a different "reality" than other people? 

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deesy58
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Re: Things powered by warm breezes


bobstro wrote:

It is an obsolescent technology that is in the process of falling by the wayside and being replaced by electronic media and the readers to access that media.  Do you also believe that innovations in saddles and bridles will help the horse to make a comeback and replace automobiles as a primary source of transportation?

 

Do you believe that innovations are being made in sailing craft, even though it is an obsolescent technology that has already fallen by the wayside and been replaced by motorized transport? (I do) Do you believe that innovations in hulls and sails will help sailing make a comeback and replace motorized craft? (For those trying to follow along at home, Deesy is apparently a fan of America's Cup racing. We've been having a discussion about it in another thread. Don't bother.)


Innovations are certainly being made in large racing yachts.  Not so much in smaller recreational sailing craft, though.  As I pointed out in the thread that you have linked, the small catamaran sailing boat was introduced in 1961. 
The fact that it is an obsolete (not obsolescent) technology makes it inappropriate for use in general transportation.  Just like horses, sailboats are no longer used for transportation, but rather for recreation and entertainment.  You seem to be trying to twist my assertions to imply that I said something I did not really say.
Like horses, sailboats are an obsolete mode of transportation.  Horses will not replace automobiles for transportation.  Sailboats will not replace motorized watercraft for transportation.  DTBs will not replace e-books for the bulk of educational and recreational reading.  I hope that is clear.  You are free to disagree, but not to misstate my assertions. 
BTW, citing the "3D Printer" as an example of innovation in printing is a poor example.  Just because people call something a "printer" doesn't make it so.  It is really a process of "additive manufacturing" that currently (primarily) uses plastic, but could also use other materials.  Because traditional printing was used to produce multiple copies of a document to be shared with many readers, and because a "3D printer" is typically used to produce a single model of an item for a single purpose, the word "printer" and "printing" to describe the device and the process are probably inappropriate, but we will be stuck with the terms now that they have entered the vernacular.
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bobstro
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Re: So the world has gone paperless after all?

deesy58 wrote:
[...] I used the "Quote" button on this forum.  Are you suggesting that it does not accurately copy quoted material into a post?
You routinely quote entire threads, commenting only on a fraction of the quoted material. It is impossible to tell what you are referring to by "the comment". Your preceding paragraph certainly does not reference any comment I made. You routinely try to infer that others have made comments that are nothing like what they actually wrote, then attack that position that they never took.
 
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deesy58
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Re: Speaking of exceptions...


TnTexas wrote:

deesy58: TnTexas is right.  e-Books will eventually, indeed, entirely replace DTBs.  Just because you might be able to purchase something some day that closely resembles a book doesn't mean that it would be considered by others to be a "book."  It might be considered by most people some day to be a "collectible," an "antique," a "curio," a "curiosity," an "oddity," or even a "rarity."

 

We still call a scroll a "scroll" when we see one. But when someone tells us to find something to read, we generally don't think about looking for one. I think that's the dynamic we're looking at sometime in the future. A physical book would still be called a "book" and thought of as one. But I think that when told to imagine themselves reading their favorite book, almost all of them are going to imagine themselves reading from either a mobile digital device of one sort or another or a computer screen (in other words, ebooks). I think very few will picture themselves holding a physical book.


Well said. 

 

What will be most important is the image that will be formed in the mind of anybody hearing the word "book."  I agree that it would be unlikely that most people would imagine that which we currently refer to as a paper and ink "book."  Although people might, generally, refer to them as collectibles, curios or antiques, they might respond "a book" when asked what kind of collectible. 

 

Words can change their meaning over time.  Some examples include: counterfeit, brave, manufacture, and artificial.  Another example of a word that often has a very different meaning than it once had is "blunt."  The word "book" could also change its meaning. 

 

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deesy58
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Re: So the world has gone paperless after all?


bobstro wrote:
deesy58 wrote:
[...] I used the "Quote" button on this forum.  Are you suggesting that it does not accurately copy quoted material into a post?
You routinely quote entire threads, commenting only on a fraction of the quoted material. It is impossible to tell what you are referring to by "the comment". Your preceding paragraph certainly does not reference any comment I made. You routinely try to infer that others have made comments that are nothing like what they actually wrote, then attack that position that they never took.

So sorry that you can no longer remember what you wrote.  You have my sympathies.  We all lose a little something as we age, and I am certainly not immune.  Therefore, I completely understand your issue.  I apologize if I have seemed harsh in my comments ...

 

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bobstro
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Re: Things powered by warm breezes

[ Edited ]

deesy58 wrote:

bobstro wrote:

[...] Do you believe that innovations are being made in sailing craft, [...]

 

Innovations are certainly being made in large racing yachts. 
So that would be a "yes" answer then, right? Or are you hedigng to cover all bases again? While sail is no longer the primary mode of transportation by water, innovation still occurs with regards to sailing craft. For that reason, I don't see why expecting to see changes in book printing occur is such an odd idea, even if printing is not the primary means by which people read books.
DTBs will not replace e-books for the bulk of educational and recreational reading.  I hope that is clear.  You are free to disagree, but not to misstate my assertions. 
And despite what you say, the sun will continue to rise in the east. You are free to disagree, but not to misstate my assertions. (Of course, you didn't say that, just as I never stated DTBs will replace e-books.)
BTW, citing the "3D Printer" as an example of innovation in printing is a poor example. 
A poor example of what? Of printing on paper? No, it's not used for printing on paper. It is an example of innovation being made in industries traditionally based on old skills. More modern manufacturing is done on a large scale. Small run production historically has involved carving, expensive processes of mold mastering and casting (often yielding poor or coarse results), or machining (involving high skills using expensive machines and materials), and has been highly dependent on specialist skills. With a 3D printer, a home hobbyist can make a part (e.g. a replacement part for an out-of-production car, bone scaffolding) cheaply and accurately with high quality results using a minimum amount of material at minimal cost. Making a high quality item in a quantity of one is affordable.
While no doubt using different technologies, why wouldn't the same trends make producing high quality "beautiful" books of quality rivaling the finest coffee table tome in small quantities similarly affordable? If freed from the need to print runs in the thousands to turn a profit, might the way in which books are selected for printing change?
3D printers are revolutionizing small time manufacturing. What's to keep paper printing technologies from similarly keeping pace?

 

 

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bobstro
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Does the media used to read a novel make it different?

[ Edited ]

I understand your point TnTexas. The nature of "books" is surely changing. I just think there will be print books around for a long time, including newly printed books, because they have aspects of art beyond simple function. A buggy doesn't move as fast or comfortably as a car. To use a buggy that is inferior to a motorized vehicle doesn't make sense if one is after the functionality of transport. By contrast, reading a book on a device doesn't make it functionally "better". I only responded to your original post in this thread to point out that there are other aspects to books. (Clearly, Keri and I disagree on what some of those are.)

 

I do have a few thoughts on your lasted post though. This is meant as a discussion, not an argument. I hope you'll receive it as such. You wrote:

[...] We still call a scroll a "scroll" when we see one. But when someone tells us to find something to read, we generally don't think about looking for one.
That's true, but if someone asks you if you've read a new novel, do you take great pains to differentiate whether you read it in paper, on an eInk device or a color LCD? Or do you just discuss the novel? I think it's a distinction without a difference for most people. Unlike a car in comparison to a buggy, you've read the novel just as they've read it. You didn't (necessarily) take longer because you read it in print.
I think that's the dynamic we're looking at sometime in the future. A physical book would still be called a "book" and thought of as one. But I think that when told to imagine themselves reading their favorite book, almost all of them are going to imagine themselves reading from either a mobile digital device of one sort or another or a computer screen (in other words, ebooks). I think very few will picture themselves holding a physical book.
I'm sure it'll mostly be a generational thing. Just as some people think of "playing music" as picking up a violin and bow rather than popping in their earbuds as most of their friends do, I do still expect to see books read (and sold) on paper. Absolutely in smaller quantities, in more specialized shops and to smaller audiences. Along with the technological changes to devices for reading, we're seeing changes in marketing and selling (the "long tail") that make it profitable for companies to sell a few items at a premium to a global audience.
I think we're alredy part way to the point of the idea of reading changing. Printed books often cost much more, at least the sort I read. I'll still buy a paper version if there's a specific benefit to doing so. You're absolutely not wrong that the nature of reading is changing. The market will have to change along with it. I don't think that automatically spells the end of print on paper.
And lest anybody misconstrue my point: I'm not saying that mom & pop publishers will replace ebook publishing, or that print will make a big comeback (assuming it loses in the first place).
As a light-hearted example, I'm having a hard time imagining being sworn in on a NOOK. What if I accidentally swore an oath with my hand on the cover of "The Top Twitter Novels of All Time"?

 

 

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TnTexas
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Re: Does the media used to read a novel make it different?

bobstro: I understand your point TnTexas. The nature of "books" is surely changing. I just think there will be print books around for a long time, including newly printed books, because they have aspects of art beyond simple function.

 

And I didn't claim it would happen overnight. I clearly said the earliest I would expect it would be during the lifetimes of grandchildren but more likely during the lives of my great-grandchildren or later. Considering the fact that my oldest has yet to graduate high school, I'm looking at a timeframe of at least a century, probably more. Do I think it's possible that very, very few paper books will be being produced 100 or more years from now? As technology marches on and becomes cheaper and therefore affordable for more people, yes, I do - at least in developed countries. That just seems to be the way technology goes.

 

That's true, but if someone asks you if you've read a new novel, do you take great pains to differentiate whether you read it in paper, on an eInk device or a color LCD? Or do you just discuss the novel? I think it's a distinction without a difference for most people.

 

At this point in time, I agree. I don't think most people differentiate between the two, and I don't know that they ever really will. I think the change will be pretty gradual and as more people begin to read ebooks, more will come to associate that format with the concept of reading until finally it becomes pretty much universal.

 

Unlike a car in comparison to a buggy, you've read the novel just as they've read it.

 

I don't know. If you're talking about simply reading the words on the page/screen, you're right; there is no difference. But if you're talking about the experience in its entirety - physcial sensations and everything - I think there is a difference.

 

I'm sure it'll mostly be a generational thing. Just as some people think of "playing music" as picking up a violin and bow rather than popping in their earbuds as most of their friends do, I do still expect to see books read (and sold) on paper. Absolutely in smaller quantities, in more specialized shops and to smaller audiences. Along with the technological changes to devices for reading, we're seeing changes in marketing and selling (the "long tail") that make it profitable for companies to sell a few items at a premium to a global audience.

 

I don't think we disagree quite as much as we (I, at least) originally thought. Our point of contention basically seems to be over whether or not physical books will ever cease to be produced. I suspect they will someday while you don't. I will say that if I'm right and they are, I expect it will be farther in the future than the general shift to ebooks will be. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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bobstro
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Re: Does the media used to read a novel make it different?

I think you're right, TnT. I'm certainly not interested in arguing when! I do wonder which will last longer: the printed book as we know it today or the ebook? Are letters on a contrasting background the future in any form? Ebook formats carry a lot of baggage from trying to be like books. In the grand scheme of technology evolution, those features may be problematic, and something newer might emerge. Perhaps paper books are are crocodiles rather than buggies, unchanging over the years.