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Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,549
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
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Re: Down the semantical trail we go...


bobstro wrote:
deesy58 wrote:

The reason why your calculator is not a computer is that it does not allow for the storage of programs that change the functions it performs. 

 

I'm personally hoping Keri replies with a pic of her 1970's vintage Ti-58 programmable calculator. Here's hoping.

 


You overestimate my age.  I have a Ti-98. You'll have to wait until I get home from work for me to take its glamour shot.

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,549
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
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Re: Down the semantical trail we go...


deesy58 wrote:
keriflur is not old enough to have ever even seen a TI-58, much less own one.

Hey, you never know, I could be classic tech collector.  Though I admitted already that I'm not. But never assume.  :smileywink:

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,549
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
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Re: Down the semantical trail we go...

[ Edited ]

deesy58 wrote:

bobstro wrote:

 

So wait. Keri is *not* me anymore?


Well, are you over 40 years old?

 


So - If Bob says he's less than 40, we're the same person, and if he says he's over 40, than we're no longer the same person?  Or do I have that backwards?

DeanGibson
Posts: 2,170
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Registered: ‎04-12-2011
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The ODB-II network

[ Edited ]

deesy58 wrote:

What are the processors that control modern automobiles?  Are they computers?  I believe they are (at least some of them). 


I stretch the linguistics a bit, and say that while many devices have computers in them, they are not computers in and of themselves, because I can't modify the software on them.

 

Oh, wait:

 

My car has a computer network in it.  Really.  I can connect my PC to my car via the OBD-II (On Board Diagnostic) connector that is in pretty much every car made for the last fifteen years.  The (non-factory authorized) software on my PC can examine numerous parameters and settings in well over a dozen computerized systems in my car (albeit each at a different data rate).  I can even change some of them:

 

For example, I have "reprogrammed" the door lock computer to:

 

  1. Automatically lock all the doors when the car speed exceeds 15 MPH.
  2. Unlock all the doors when the key fob is pressed.  The default is to only unlock the driver door on the first press, and unlock all the doors on the second press.

In reality, these are just hidden settings.

 

However, 3rd parties have made available for my model car (1998 Audi) a replacement ROM for the automatic transmission computer, that gives better acceleration than the factory ROM (and non-optimal EPA fuel consumption).  Since I have a manual transmission Audi, I don't have that particular computer.  However, I can run numerous tests on the other computers, like for the dash, where I can have the speedometer show 140MPH while in my garage.  How exhilarating!!!!  :smileyvery-happy:

2 Nook HD/8GB + 2 Nook HD+/16GB: B&N 2.2.0 rooted
2 Nook Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1
2 Nook 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted.; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted;
Nook Color: B&N 1.4.3 rooted; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 (7.0"): Android 4.2.2 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
Never suspect intent where incompetence will do.
Distinguished Bibliophile
patgolfneb
Posts: 1,757
Registered: ‎09-10-2011
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Re: The ODB-II network


DeanGibson wrote:

deesy58 wrote:

What are the processors that control modern automobiles?  Are they computers?  I believe they are (at least some of them). 


I stretch the linguistics a bit, and say that while many devices have computers in them, they are not computers in and of themselves, because I can't modify the software on them.

 

Oh, wait:

 

My car has a computer network in it.  Really.  I can connect my PC to my car via the OBD-II (On Board Diagnostic) connector that is in pretty much every car made for the last fifteen years.  The (non-factory authorized) software on my PC can examine numerous parameters and settings in well over a dozen computerized systems in my car (albeit each at a different data rate).  I can even change some of them:

 

For example, I have "reprogrammed" the door lock computer to:

 

  1. Automatically lock all the doors when the car speed exceeds 15 MPH.
  2. Unlock all the doors when the key fob is pressed.  The default is to only unlock the driver door on the first press, and unlock all the doors on the second press.

In reality, these are just hidden settings.

 

However, 3rd parties have made available for my model car (1998 Audi) a replacement ROM for the automatic transmission computer, that gives better acceleration than the factory ROM (and non-optimal EPA fuel consumption).  Since I have a manual transmission Audi, I don't have that particular computer.  However, I can run numerous tests on the other computers, like for the dash, where I can have the speedometer show 140MPH while in my garage.  How exhilarating!!!!  :smileyvery-happy:


I think the distinction is computer vs personal computer.  Many modern devices contain computers, few are general purpose. The hardest to categorize are things like X Box or the original Nook Color which are  not general purpose but can easily be converted to general of if you prefer multi purpose personal devices using owner or third party software. 

Inspired Bibliophile
deesy58
Posts: 2,486
Registered: ‎01-22-2012
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Re: The ODB-II network

Playstations can be used for some grid computing projects, as can NVIDIA graphics cards.  Computers have become ubiquitous. 

 

The oil change shop where I have my car smog checked every year appears to use a PC computer to connect to the computer network that runs my car.  My engine and transmission are both controlled by a computer, and the computer can be reprogrammed by the dealer.  It is a 2000 model with an automatic transmission.  The computers control valve timing, shift points, fuel/air mixture ratios and a lot of other aspects of the car's functions.  I imagine that I could reprogram my car also if I had the necessary software and the proper interface cable ...

Inspired Bibliophile
deesy58
Posts: 2,486
Registered: ‎01-22-2012
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Re: The ODB-II network


patgolfneb wrote:

I think the distinction is computer vs personal computer.  Many modern devices contain computers, few are general purpose. The hardest to categorize are things like X Box or the original Nook Color which are  not general purpose but can easily be converted to general of if you prefer multi purpose personal devices using owner or third party software. 

In a very real sense, every computer that we use on a personal basis, including smart phones and tablets, is a personal computer.  The use of the term Personal Computer (PC) has become corrupted over time and there is no longer a lot of general agreement over its meaning.

DeanGibson
Posts: 2,170
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Solutions: 18
Registered: ‎04-12-2011
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Re: The ODB-II network

[ Edited ]

deesy58 wrote:


In a very real sense, every computer that we use on a personal basis, including smart phones and tablets, is a personal computer.  The use of the term Personal Computer (PC) has become corrupted over time and there is no longer a lot of general agreement over its meaning.


 

True.  However, because we use "Personal Computer/PC" to refer to the computer that we connect other devices to (eg, tablets), I use the term only to refer to a desktop-like computer (IBM/clone, Apple Mac) running a desktop OS (DOS, Windows, iOS, a full Linux installation) with general purpose ports (serial, parallel, or USB) to which I can connect other devices.

 

A laptop is a PC, except that the display and keyboard are integrated.  Otherwise, it is a desktop computer (including a laptop connected to a docking station with an external display and/or keyboard).

 

Embedded computing devices (eg, the e-Ink Nooks) are not general purpose computers, although sometimes they can be made so.

 

I find those distinctions useful.

2 Nook HD/8GB + 2 Nook HD+/16GB: B&N 2.2.0 rooted
2 Nook Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1
2 Nook 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted.; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted;
Nook Color: B&N 1.4.3 rooted; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 (7.0"): Android 4.2.2 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
Never suspect intent where incompetence will do.
Correspondent
Wulfraed
Posts: 994
Registered: ‎11-24-2012
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Re: Nook future plans article


deesy58 wrote:

 

I believe that you are mistaken.  Tablets are, indeed, computers.  Just like notebooks and laptops are computers, even though we refer to them by different names.

The reason why your calculator is not a computer is that it does not allow for the storage of programs that change the functions it performs. 

Look up the history of the development of the stored-program computer and you will realize that all tablets are computers. 


And by your definition, the last five calculators I've purchased are "computers". Though the HP25 was a bit tedious as it lost the program if you turned it off. I had to reprogram it to do factorials each day for statistics class.

 

My HP41cx had an option to support HPIL interfaces, and near the end of it's production may have gained GPIB interface capability. I do have the magnetic card reader and a bar code reader wand for it, along with one memory expansion and printer interface.

 

The HP28 natively supported the printer but lacked memory expansion. The printer interface could also be used as a bidirectional infrared serial port.

 

The HP48sx expanded on the capability with a custom memory slot and wired serial port.

 

The HP50 uses USB and microSD for expansion, and supports programming in: user RPL, SYSRPL (direct calls to the functions bypassing the error checking done with user RPL), SATURN assembly language (the processor family used by most HP calculators), and ARM assembly (the HP50 uses an ARM processor running at quarter speed to save battery, and runs a SATURN emulator on which the RPL system is executed).

 

I still call them calculators based on form factor -- handheld with a physical keypad taking up most of the top surface.

 

As for "Tablet" vs "computer"... if it can't host a development system for it's own OS, it isn't a general purpose computer! (The HP50 has the assemblers that run on the device). Let me know when a full Android deveopment environment shows up in the shop and can be run from SD card since we don't want it to be permanently resident.

Baron Wulfraed
Correspondent
Wulfraed
Posts: 994
Registered: ‎11-24-2012

Re: Defining "disposable"

Just an aside.

 

I believe the Fed mandates that auto manufacturers maintain a parts supply to support(expected) repair needs for up to seven years after a model is discontinued.

Baron Wulfraed