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Frequent Contributor
j.cafesin
Posts: 34
Registered: ‎10-07-2008
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Re: REVERB coming out June 30th

I guess winning readers is the all important thing here. Except not to me. The truth is. And if I'm misinformed, then I retract the comment. 

 

I do believe that I'm not THAT misinformed. B&N has put many, many small booksellers out of business, sellers who carried unknown and self-published authors consistently, not the occasional title that the author worked very hard to get the B&N bookstore owner to carry. Most of the deals with B&N are made by the major publishers who in fact do pay a hefty sum to get the right placement for their work, which is why the great majority of titles B&N carries are from major publishing houses. 

 

Additionally, B&N stands very little to lose, as if the books don't sell, they simply return them to the publisher, making it nearly impossible for a small publisher to compete, and definitely not on an even playing field. 

 

Of course, I, like all of you would like my book to sell. But I'm not going to kiss this sites ass, or anyone else's just to make that happen. If they want to throw me off the site, or you don't want to read me because I frequently present a point of view that is contrary to the popular, then so be it. I want to be read because my writing is engaging, entertaining and lets the reader feel, and think. 

www.jcafesin.com
Frequent Contributor
j.cafesin
Posts: 34
Registered: ‎10-07-2008
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Re: REVERB coming out June 30th

Additionally, I guess I feel mad, hurt at the way corporate America works. It makes me sad that talent isn't the priority, just money. Small sellers who are passionate about great writing can't sustain their businesses because they can't get the same deals as B&N. I know two small bookstores in my area that went under when B&N and Borders opened. Makes me sad.

 

And you're right, of course, that I'm hurting myself by slamming the way large booksellers operate. But when, as writers do we stand up? Only when it serves our very personal interests. When do we care about other writers, unknowns, or the art of writing itself going away and being replaced by shelf after shelf of James Patterson?

 

I'm an idealist to my core, wishing for so much more than total and complete self-interest without any vision of what it's doing in the broader view.

 

 

 

 

www.jcafesin.com
Distinguished Bibliophile
Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: REVERB coming out June 30th

I'm an idealist to my core,

 

 Ms. Cafesin:  I'm sorry, but I see nothing "idealistic" or "kind" or "thoughtful" or "gracious" about the approach you have taken for communicating your points on these threads, whether or not they are valid.

 

I have found your approach and the negative attitudes you have conveyed as standing in the way of even being willing to give reasonable listening to whatever you may be trying to say with any authority or ability to persuade.  It is as if you barged into a festive, enjoyable community hall flaying a weapon and expected a respectful audience.

 

There is no question that the book publishing and book selling industries are undergoing some wrenching changes and I do believe that thoughtful discussions on the subject are possible in the forums B&N has provided.  However, the approaches you have taken to date have not been ones that have seemed other than rude, ill considered, and belligerent to me.  And, I will allow that I may be being protective of a community that has served me graciously and being unfair to your positions, but those are my reactions.

j.cafesin wrote:

Additionally, I guess I feel mad, hurt at the way corporate America works. It makes me sad that talent isn't the priority, just money. Small sellers who are passionate about great writing can't sustain their businesses because they can't get the same deals as B&N. I know two small bookstores in my area that went under when B&N and Borders opened. Makes me sad.

 

And you're right, of course, that I'm hurting myself by slamming the way large booksellers operate. But when, as writers do we stand up? Only when it serves our very personal interests. When do we care about other writers, unknowns, or the art of writing itself going away and being replaced by shelf after shelf of James Patterson?

 

I'm an idealist to my core, wishing for so much more than total and complete self-interest without any vision of what it's doing in the broader view.

 

 


"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
Distinguished Bibliophile
KathyS
Posts: 6,898
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: REVERB coming out June 30th

[ Edited ]

j.cafesin wrote:   I guess winning readers is the all important thing here. Except not to me. The truth is. And if I'm misinformed, then I retract the comment.  I do believe that I'm not THAT misinformed.

 

***************************

 

J., If winning readers is NOT the all important thing here, for you, you're mistake,   You are advertising your book amongst readers, and using the space in this community to do it. You need to respect where you are, and who you are talking to.  We are not stupid people. You've draw attention to yourself, by doing so in a negative way.  It is only going to alienate everyone from even wanting to go to your publisher, or your website, or wherever your book is sold. 

 

We all have feelings about our books, whether we've written them or read them.  As I said, if you want to win friends OR influence people, you don't go about it by slamming a company forum where everyone who is here is clearly looking for that next book to read.  Authors are important to us, just as their books are important. You can't speak to your reader by first offending your audience.

 

For the most part, most of us are intelligent, and if you have something to say, present it with a kind open hand, not in the form of a fist.  Or you will get exactly what you've gotten, offended readers.

 

I agree with your thoughts on the big business situation.  I worked in the market business, and yes, companies bought their rights to a spotlight on their product, by product placement.  That's the way of the world, it seems.  We many not like it, that's for sure, but there is a time and place for sounding off about it, and this certainly isn't the place, where you want to make readers aware of your book. I'm sorry you thought it was. 

 

B&N allows you that space to show off your book.  In this community of readers.  That spotlight.   I do wish you well with your published works, but I can tell you, again, I won't be reading it, because of this self-righteous attitude you convey.  Athors do sway their readers.  And by all means, you came here to win readers, and you can't tell me you just came here to bash B&N.  That absolutely doesn't add up, in my estimation.  Think about this. 

RTA
Wordsmith
RTA
Posts: 920
Registered: ‎08-19-2008

Re: REVERB coming out June 30th

[ Edited ]

 

j.cafesin wrote:

 

If they want to throw me off the site, or you don't want to read me because I frequently present a point of view that is contrary to the popular, then so be it.

 

 

First, you're not going to get thrown off the site (unless of course you break one of the rules for the forum).  I can't imagine you're even near the administrators' worst headache.  

 

In fact, I think you're probably more annoying to me and members like me, who are here for genuine discourse, than you are to B&N.  What I find particularly loathsome about your posting is that you frequently do not present a point of view.  Rather, you post a new thread, or post in a current thread, to shamelessly plug your blog (or your twitter feed, if I'm recalling correctly).  Regardless of what B&N thinks in that regard, you're treating your audience as nothing more than mindless recipients to your advertising.  

 

That you would then take up the victimization mantle, among those same people, on a forum where they aim to discuss books and ideas with readers and writers alike, again, shows a glaring lack of awareness.  That your mantle of victimization turns on the criticism of B&N being too commercial (after you've treated your audience as nothing more than targets for your own advertisements) takes that lack of awareness into the realm of the absurd.  

 

I'm not a fan of self-promotion, generally.  But when that self-promotion is not buttressed by any substance, it's particularly vile.

 

Write something of value, put your blog link in your signature.  People might care.  Right now, all I see is a whiner, and a poor writer to boot, who treats this space meant for open discourse as a free commercial.  To me, you're nothing more than a screaming advertisement when all I'm waiting for is to see how House is going to save his patient.  Why would I care what you might be producing, otherwise?

Frequent Contributor
j.cafesin
Posts: 34
Registered: ‎10-07-2008
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Re: REVERB coming out June 30th

RTA, you wrote:

Write something of value, put your blog link in your signature.  People might care.  Right now, all I see is a whiner, and a poor writer to boot, who treats this space meant for open discourse as a free commercial.

 

Since I don't know how to pull sections like all of you did, I pasted the above. Sorry.

 

I've been on this site since early 2007. (I realize it says 2008, but I had to re sign-up when this site switched formats in 08). I started the Original Essays and Short Works board here where literally thousands have interacted. I posted, what many, many (if you bothered to read the comments) think are very valuable essays, that have touched many. And I've encouraged others to do the same, and they in fact, have! Read the board. If you go back in time to some of my older posts, I responded to many posts and commented regularly on the books I've read and what I thought of them, my most recent being on The Fountainhead, where my understanding of her work seemed somewhat different than most other peoples, and I had a nice discussion with others here about that.

 

What I don't understand is why you are all so angry, and mean.

 

"And if this is an example of a great writer that we are all missing, then I think you need your head examined, pronto!"

 

"That your mantle of victimization turns on the criticism of B&N being too commercial (after you've treated your audience as nothing more than targets for your own advertisements) takes that lack of awareness into the realm of the absurd." or "But when that self-promotion is not buttressed by any substance, it's particularly vile."

 

"Right now, all I see is a whiner, and a poor writer to boot, who treats this space meant for open discourse as a free commercial.  To me, you're nothing more than a screaming advertisement" 

 

Your attacks are rude, cutting, and unwarranted since I've attacked no one personally here. I commented on B&N and other major book sellers practices, which I find somewhat appalling. I don't understand why all of you took it personally, and attacked. If you meant to hurt, it did. But it didn't change my opinion of what large sellers like B&N and Borders are doing to the book buying public-- limiting their choices by not representing authors who aren't supported by the top three publishers, or burying unknown authors in the stacks.

 

Someone said, "You can't speak to your reader by first offending your audience."

 

I believe limiting the choices for readers is the real offense against them. I was telling them about my book coming out, not to offend, but to give them a choice I believe that B&N won't. And this chat forum isn't up because B&N are nice guys. It is a marketing tool, which is why they maintain this site. They hope, and in fact it's true, that a good percentage of their sales comes from all of you here. They wouldn't maintain this site if it wasn't profitable. 

 

I would love an open discussion about the state of the book industry, in regards to the short and long term affects of mega-booksellers on not only the small sellers and unknown authors, but also the affect on the readers, what we now read as compared to 50 years ago when we weren't being so manipulated by marketing from only a handful of sellers. And I think this is the perfect forum for talking about this, since as so many reply's here have indicated, this chat forum should be so much more than just selling books.

 

 

 

www.jcafesin.com
RTA
Wordsmith
RTA
Posts: 920
Registered: ‎08-19-2008

Re: REVERB coming out June 30th

[ Edited ]
j.cafesin wrote:

 

Since I don't know how to pull sections like all of you did, I pasted the above. Sorry.

No problem.  For future reference, if you’re interested, after you hit the reply button, to the post you’re replying to, you just hit the quote button.  The other person’s entire post will then appear in quotes and you can cut out all but what you’re directly replying to.

j.cafesin wrote:

 

I've been on this site since early 2007. (I realize it says 2008, but I had to re sign-up when this site switched formats in 08). I started the Original Essays and Short Works board here where literally thousands have interacted. I posted, what many, many (if you bothered to read the comments) think are very valuable essays, that have touched many.

Yes, I know.  I’ve seen it.  I didn’t take issue with that thread, and I never said anything with regard to it.  Personally, I didn’t find a lot of value in the thread because I find your posts (or, at least, the few of them I read--and your blog, for that matter) to be self-reflective and/or self-involved in a way that makes it pointless for a person who isn’t you to read and respond to them.  But I don’t think there’s any issue with you treating one thread on a forum as a kind of public diary. 

 

However, look at how you’ve interacted in that thread recently.  Literally, one-line posts, with links leading directly to your blog.    Or the threads in the Community Room that link directly to your blog, with not even the single sentence you graced us with before.  It’s called the “Community Room” for goodness’ sake.  How are you treating the community well by sending them to a link away from the Community Room, without any invitation or encouragement to actually create discussion in the Community Room?  The answer is, it doesn’t serve the community.  It serves you.  It’s shameless self-promotion. 

 

Even there, because you wisely allow a bit of time between successive efforts of self-promotion, I still probably wouldn’t have said anything.

 

But I can’t help but point out glaring hypocrisy.  And when you criticized B&N for being commercial, when you are literally treating your audience as nothing more than a captive audience for your self-promotion, I couldn’t help but point to the hypocrisy.  It was too delicious to ignore.  There’s no anger or rudeness in pointing to that hypocrisy. 

 

And before you cry yourself another river.  Why don’t you try looking at this from our perspective?  B&N provides us all this free, public forum that allows us all to interact with each other, to discuss various topics and books.  You are a member of this forum who has not made a substantive post in months.  However, in the last four months you’ve been fairly aggressively pushing your own blog, without bothering to engage any actual discussion on this public forum.  You then turn to plugging your book.  Which, again, whatever.  But, with the same breath you’re plugging your book, you falsely accuse B&N of not carrying certain publishers and denigrate the company as being excessively commercial (again on this free service that allows all of us to interact).  Now, I’m no lover of excessive commercialization, and I’ve been a long-time supporter of independent book stores in my community, but I also know how to properly appreciate when a large company provides its customers a thoroughly significant service.  And I take issue when people misuse that service, because that only encourages that the service goes away.

 

I’m not speaking for anyone else, but here’s how I experienced your post.  B&N provides a space and invites us to use this space to discuss any number of topics.  So we’re all sitting around with our cups of coffee in this B&N-provided space discussing various topics and books of interest.  Every once in a while you poke your head into this space to shout “Look at me!”  Some look for a second, then turn back to their nice conversations that exist only because B&N provides this free space.  Then you stop by to shout “Look at me!  And, by the way, the organization that provides this place totally sucks!”  Can you see why some of us aren’t real receptive to you? 

 

j.cafesin wrote:

I would love an open discussion about the state of the book industry, in regards to the short and long term affects of mega-booksellers on not only the small sellers and unknown authors, but also the affect on the readers, what we now read as compared to 50 years ago when we weren't being so manipulated by marketing from only a handful of sellers.

 

As I think it was Pepper who indicated before, that’s probably a welcomed topic for a thread.  But please be sure that, when you offer your perspective, you don’t make erroneous accusations, like the one that initiated this discussion. 

Frequent Contributor
j.cafesin
Posts: 34
Registered: ‎10-07-2008
0 Kudos

Re: REVERB coming out June 30th

I tried to get the quote down and then respond but this browser won't let me get out of your quote. Can you please explain how to respond once I've put your quote in and cut to the part I want. In the interim:

 

You said:

"because I find your posts (or, at least, the few of them I read--and your blog, for that matter) to be self-reflective and/or self-involved in a way that makes it pointless for a person who isn’t you to read and respond to them."

 

These type of attacks are pointless, rude, childish, and I have no clue why you'd want to display yourself this way. And why do you keep your profile and name private if you're so sure of your opinion?

 

You said:

"It’s called the “Community Room” for goodness’ sake.  How are you treating the community well by sending them to a link away from the Community Room, without any invitation or encouragement to actually create discussion in the Community Room?  The answer is, it doesn’t serve the community.  It serves you.  It’s shameless self-promotion."

 

Only the very commercial sites, who don't want viewers moving off their site AT ALL, unless it links to sales of THEIR books or products would agree with you that sending readers outside the community is bad. There is a world out there, and many who come here are privy to great links. These forums, though meant as a marketing tool, should also be open to sharing outside links the readers of this site deem worthy. The B&N "Community Room" does not need to, and to their credit in fact does not exclude all other communities outside of B&N. They allow linking.

 

Additionally, I post just links on other sites to spark discussion back on the site I posted on. In fact, many of my links to my blog spark great conversations on the site the link was placed. Readers simply go back to that original link and comment in the group it was posted to. It's done all the time on LinkedIn and Facebook and others. No one is preventing anyone from coming back to the B&N site to comment on a thread or post, even if it links outside. 

 

You said:

"And, by the way, the organization that provides this place totally sucks!"

 

You have mis-quoted me in you zealous quest to belittle me. I never said this site sucks. In fact I've said that I've enjoyed many discussions here. (Please refer to my last reply.) If you can't remember what I've said, please refer to my words from my posts if you'd like to quote me.

www.jcafesin.com
Distinguished Bibliophile
KathyS
Posts: 6,898
Registered: ‎10-19-2006

Re: REVERB coming out June 30th

Okay, j.cafesin, let's put it another way...I've tried to be as nice as I can.  I think RTA and Pepper have pretty much summed it up, better than I more than once.  I added my two cents to no avail. Now, I'll add another three cents to make it an even five.  Here goes.

 

If you are invited to a dinner party at someone's house, where other guests are all good friends, enjoying each other's company, but you basically don't know these people.  Would you go there with a bottle of wine (or whatever offering) for the host, and try to mingle and socialize with these nice people?  Or would you sit down to dinner and start to criticize the food, and the host for serving that food?  What do you think the reaction of all of these good friends would be?  Not to mention the host's reaction (Paul)? 

 

Yes, it would leave all of these people, AND the host, dumbfounded!  How dare you come to this party and start to criticize it, when you were kindly invited, and didn't have to bring a thing.  Yes, it would make everyone upset.  Yes, they would be put on the defensive.  How dare you do that!  Would be the reaction.

 

So, in saying this, yes, we intended to spank you royally, and if it hurt, that's just the results of your being insulting.  The host does not boot you out, but lets you stay and have your say.  Your first reaction, after Paul Pointed this out to you, with your foot in your mouth, you should have taken that foot out, and apologized for your bad behavior.  Not make excuses for it.  As we've all said, several times, there is a time and place for everything, and for you to get in everyone's face with YOU WANTING TO BE SEEN, is such a selfish act, and if you can't see that, then I can't help you any more than we've already tried.

 

Kathy

Frequent Contributor
Jon_B
Posts: 1,893
Registered: ‎07-15-2008
0 Kudos

Re: REVERB coming out June 30th

[ Edited ]

 

j.cafesin wrote:

 

The B&N "Community Room" does not need to, and to their credit in fact does not exclude all other communities outside of B&N. They allow linking.

 

 

 

 

Yes, we allow linking.  We'd certainly prefer if you would put more in a post than just a link to a blog article and no other commentary.  If you want to put a link to your blog in your signature, that's a good way to promote it.  Starting new threads with nothing but a link whenever you write a new article is not a good practice and is probably not going to garner a lot of interest in what you have to say.  As others have pointed out to you before, most people don't like to just blindly click links.

 

Want to start a discussion on whether B&N harms or supports self-published authors and small presses?  We'd be more than happy to have that discussion.  By all means, go ahead and start a thread about it - it will go a lot better if start it off with some well phrased open questions rather than just a link with no comments or a rant against the company complaining that we don't carry your publisher's books (especially since we do carry them)!

 

 

 

 

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