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Bibliophile
5ivedom
Posts: 3,544
Registered: ‎12-03-2011

Re: Website Complaint

Regarding this:

 

*****

I have no problem with a business exploiting loopholes in order to reduce its tax liability.  I think doing so is somewhat clever and something to be admired.

*****

 

There's such a thing as following the 'letter of the law' but breaking the 'spirit of the law'.

 

I'll give you an example.

 

There are companies that set up their UK operations such that -

 

Earnings in UK go to Belgium, then to Jersey (an island off of UK), then to Ireland.

 

And in this way they pay less than 5% taxes.

 

For Example, Google UK has 90%+ of the market and earns billions from UK and pays a few hundred thousand pounds in taxes.

 

*****

 

I don't care how you define 'Tax Evasion vs Tax Avoidance vs Tax Shirking' - that's just wrong and unfair to the country of UK.

 

Because all the money Google UK makes is FROM UK. It shouldn't be allowed to use loopholes to pay no taxes on it, even though it has hundres (perhaps thousands by now) employees in London using the services. Not to mention all the money it makes is from US citizens.

 

That a corporation would make billions of pounds from UK citizens and then pay just a few hundred thousand pounds for an effective tax rate of 0.1%.

 

That's just wrong. It seems 'it has no impact' - but it does. UK is massively cutting library budgets. Guess where those 200 to 500 million pounds could get used (the ones that Google UK is spirting away on a carnival cruise ship to barbados and then ireland) - for things like schools and libraries.

 

Lots of companies do this.

 

*******

 

It's not OK because 90% of the people pay 25% to 35% taxes on their hard earned money and either have a strong ethical compass or don't have the knowledge that you can shirk taxes in this way.

 

IT's absolutely wrong to allow a huge company to get away with it.

 

Examples:

 

Google has $80 billion+ in assets.

Apple has $120 billion+ in assets.

 

Those are mostly foreign earnings they have parked offshore and/or routed through a series of subsidiaries in Jersey, Bermuda, Ireland, etc.

 

********

 

I think you don't fully understand the extent of tax avoidance going on.

 

IT's one thing for someone who earns $57,000 to find a way to save $2,000 or $3,000 in taxes.

 

It's completely different for a company to lower its effective tax rate from 35% to 5% or 10%.

 

*******

 

Companies exploiting loopholes to lower taxes from 30% to 35% range to 5% to 10% range is just WRONG - morally and ethically and also 'in the spirit of the law'.

 

It's not tax avoidance. It's dayright robbery. You can't call it 'intelligent' or tax avoidance if taxes go from 35% to 5%.

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,718
Registered: ‎01-05-2010

Re: Website Complaint

If the letter of the law does not require citizens and businesses to meet the spirit of the law, then the law needs to change.

DeanGibson
Posts: 2,198
Topics: 92
Kudos: 2,253
Solutions: 18
Registered: ‎04-12-2011
0 Kudos

US Federal Judge Learned Hand

[ Edited ]

doncr wrote: ...  Again, nothing wrong with a business or individual trying to reduce their tax burden as far as I'm concerned. 

Your opinion doesn't count, but US Federal Court rulings do, and fortunately, the Courts agree with you, in a classic ruling against the IRS almost a century ago:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_Hand , Helvering v. Gregory, 69 F.2d 809, 810-11 (2d Cir. 1934).  See http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tax_noncompliance

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Distinguished Bibliophile
patgolfneb
Posts: 1,762
Registered: ‎09-10-2011
0 Kudos

Re: Website Complaint

Donr, Kerifleur, your replies, change the law was insulting. The political equivalent of let them eat cake. Corporations have access and the ability to lobby preferential treatment, like fivedom's example.  I could give many more but business controls the media, they own the media. What we are saying is it is time to open your eyes, big corporations are out of control why aren't people supporting change instead of supporting corporate tax evasion.

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,718
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Website Complaint

[ Edited ]

patgolfneb wrote:

Donr, Kerifleur, your replies, change the law was insulting. The political equivalent of let them eat cake. Corporations have access and the ability to lobby preferential treatment, like fivedom's example.  I could give many more but business controls the media, they own the media. What we are saying is it is time to open your eyes, big corporations are out of control why aren't people supporting change instead of supporting corporate tax evasion.


Um, supporting change = saying the law should change, no?

 

Sorry, but if your expectation is that if a bunch of people say it's wrong the companies will change their behaviour, then you may be waiting a very, very long time.  The only way behaviour is going to change is if the law changes.

DeanGibson
Posts: 2,198
Topics: 92
Kudos: 2,253
Solutions: 18
Registered: ‎04-12-2011
0 Kudos

Who is in control of the taxes

I'd say the following is a pretty big voting block for avoiding income taxes:  http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/09/18/161337343/the-47-percent-in-one-graphic

 

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Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
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Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,718
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Who is in control of the taxes


DeanGibson wrote:

I'd say the following is a pretty big voting block for avoiding income taxes:  http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/09/18/161337343/the-47-percent-in-one-graphic

 


I would like to know more about the households that make six figures and pay no tax.  How do I get into that group? :smileywink:

Distinguished Bibliophile
patgolfneb
Posts: 1,762
Registered: ‎09-10-2011

Re: Who is in control of the taxes

Are you saying that failure to change a law so that unethical, greedy behavior, is prevented makes it my fault? That is the type of thought and elitist behavior that has been used to justify wrongs throughout history, so not allowing women or blacks to vote, pre amendment, cartels and monopolies etc. I am stating that yes these are wrongs annd I support changes in the law. That doesn't mean it is acceptable, just legal until then. 

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,718
Registered: ‎01-05-2010

Re: Who is in control of the taxes


patgolfneb wrote:

Are you saying that failure to change a law so that unethical, greedy behavior, is prevented makes it my fault? That is the type of thought and elitist behavior that has been used to justify wrongs throughout history, so not allowing women or blacks to vote, pre amendment, cartels and monopolies etc. I am stating that yes these are wrongs annd I support changes in the law. That doesn't mean it is acceptable, just legal until then. 


Um, no. I'm saying that if the law is not doing what the citizens intended for it to do (make companies pay a fair amount to support the communities they are in), then it needs to change to do so.

 

i think I was fairly straightforward on that.

Wordsmith
doncr
Posts: 493
Registered: ‎12-29-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Who is in control of the taxes


keriflur wrote:

patgolfneb wrote:

Are you saying that failure to change a law so that unethical, greedy behavior, is prevented makes it my fault? That is the type of thought and elitist behavior that has been used to justify wrongs throughout history, so not allowing women or blacks to vote, pre amendment, cartels and monopolies etc. I am stating that yes these are wrongs annd I support changes in the law. That doesn't mean it is acceptable, just legal until then. 


Um, no. I'm saying that if the law is not doing what the citizens intended for it to do (make companies pay a fair amount to support the communities they are in), then it needs to change to do so.

 

i think I was fairly straightforward on that.


Well if you want to point the finger of blame, the true fault lies with you and me.  The reason is because we keep sending people to Washington that will never eliminate the tax loopholes that are legally exploited by these corporations.  Talk about greed all you like, but until those loopholes are closed and the tax code changed it will be business as usual.