Suttree (Spoiler)

[bentley]

Some more help reading Suttree:

http://www.enotes.com/suttree-qn/68074

One of the write-ups claimed that Suttree was semi-autobiographical (which portion)? I can't believe that McCarthy's life was like the main character's life in terms of the choice he made. Was it that he came from an affluent family or one steeped in tradition? Since I am just starting the novel, I was trying to understand the connection that the writer seemed to make to McCarthy's own life or was this statement incorrect?

http://www.pifmagazine.com/SID/429

The above url discusses how McCarthy made Knoxville itself a character in the novel.

http://www.nytimes.com/1979/02/18/books/mccarthy-suttree.html

The above url is a New York Times book review of Suttree.

[bentley]

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bentley wrote:
I picked up Suttree from the library today.

Thought I would post some brief write-ups on the book before I dig in:

http://www.cormacmccarthy.com/works/suttree.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suttree

At the end of the wikipedia one there are some great local photos of places allegedly depicted in the novel. Seems like this novel is set in Knoxville. Maybe that is a familiar starting point for his books and it makes one thing that images of Knoxville probably found their way into The Road as noted by PaulH.

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Correction:

Meant to say "means one thing" versus makes.

[Erato]

I am reading FINN (a new release) right now. It's another one that starts with the same scenario....the body floating down the river. It's the story of Huck Finn's alcoholic father. You might want to check it out too and see how it compares to Suttree.

By reading your posts, I am wondering if you think it would be a better idea for me to read Suttree before Blood Meridian?

They are both here on my TBR pile.

I did read somewhere that Suttree was McCarthy's most autobiographical novel, his magnum opus, so to speak and took him the longest to write of all of his novels.

Also, this from one reviewer...."Suttree himself is a lost creature who can find no real hook into this world. He roams about "like a dog" at large. He can touch another human being for a moment, drink beer with a friend, fish, make love, but he has to move on, jump downriver, or hide in the dead, nightmare city. The book comes at us like a horrifying flood. The language licks, batters, wounds--a poetic, troubled rush of debris. It is personal and tough, without that boring neatness and desire for resolution that you can get in any well-made novel. Cormac McCarthy has little mercy to spare, for his characters or himself. His text is broken, beautiful and ugly in spots. Mr. McCarthy won't soothe us with a quiet song. "Suttree" is like a good, long scream in the ear."

So a long scream in the ear or the horrific judge and the kid?

Maybe I should just pick up a good 'Romance' novel for a break???? :-)

Message Edited by Erato on 04-21-200710:37 AM

[bentley]

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Erato wrote:
I am reading FINN (a new release) right now. It's another one that starts with the same scenario....the body floating down the river. It's the story of Huck Finn's alcoholic father. You might want to check it out too and see how it compares to Suttree.

By reading your posts, I am wondering if you think it would be a better idea for me to read Suttree before Blood Meridian?

They are both here on my TBR pile.

I did read somewhere that Suttree was McCarthy's most autobiographical novel, his magnum opus, so to speak and took him the longest to write of all of his novels.

Also, this from one reviewer...."Suttree himself is a lost creature who can find no real hook into this world. He roams about "like a dog" at large. He can touch another human being for a moment, drink beer with a friend, fish, make love, but he has to move on, jump downriver, or hide in the dead, nightmare city. The book comes at us like a horrifying flood. The language licks, batters, wounds--a poetic, troubled rush of debris. It is personal and tough, without that boring neatness and desire for resolution that you can get in any well-made novel. Cormac McCarthy has little mercy to spare, for his characters or himself. His text is broken, beautiful and ugly in spots. Mr. McCarthy won't soothe us with a quiet song. "Suttree" is like a good, long scream in the ear."

So a long scream in the ear or the horrific judge and the kid?

Maybe I should just pick up a good 'Romance' novel for a break???? :-)

Message Edited by Erato on 04-21-200710:37 AM

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I only speak from someone who has read Blood Meridian and is just starting Suttree...but I would read Suttree first. It seems he almost makes Knoxville a character in this novel and I think the preface is devoted to that action.

Yes, reading the romance novel or a good mystery might be a good break...I have not read Finn and am still on the McCarthy quest at the moment but I will put that on my "to read" list. Also, I heard that there were humorous segments in this book...I find that hard to believe; but comic relief would also be good.

I am trying to find out what segments are autobiographical(in Suttree) unless it is just that McCarthy lived in Knoxville. Have you found anything written about that?

Most folks who are McCarthy aficionados mention both books in the same breath (Blood Meridian and Suttree) so I thought that I would try to tackle both..and BloodM I finished....(or it finished me at the time)!

Suttree first I think...because of the semi-autobiographical details but I am not sure what they are at this point??? Maybe PaulH can weigh in on this since he is much more of a McCarthy connoisseur than I am.

Message Edited by bentley on 04-21-200711:19 AM

[Erato]

I only speak from someone who has read Blood Meridian and is just starting Suttree...but I would read Suttree first. It seems he almost makes Knoxville a character in this novel and I think the preface is devoted to that action.

Yes, reading the romance novel or a good mystery might be a good break...I have not read Finn and am still on the McCarthy quest at the moment but I will put that on my "to read" list. Also, I heard that there were humorous segments in this book...I find that hard to believe; but comic relief would also be good.

I am trying to find out what segments are autobiographical(in Suttree) unless it is just that McCarthy lived in Knoxville. Have you found anything written about that?

Most folks who are McCarthy aficionados mention both books in the same breath (Blood Meridian and Suttree) so I thought that I would try to tackle both..and BloodM I finished....(or it finished me at the time)!

Suttree first I think...because of the semi-autobiographical details but I am not sure what they are at this point??? Maybe PaulH can weigh in on this since he is much more of a McCarthy connoisseur than I am.

Message Edited by bentley on 04-21-200711:19 AM

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Bentley, maybe you can "google" a Blood Meridian Support Group on-line???

I have read that there IS some humor in Suttree, mainly in the form of subtle puns.

I think Mac wrestled with 'black dog'(alcoholism) in real life and it was a major cause of the broken relations and the hobo life.

Here's something I found at another site by another poster; it may be an answer of sorts...

"Suttree is Cormac's suicide book. He had to die to his old life. Alcohol was symptomatic of his refusal to die, not his alienation. The alienation was not the result of a specific act by his family, they were simply the immediate tribal unit of the culture and history of mankind that he had to die to. The corpse both was and wasn't him. He was passive only in this sense: his guilt about separation from his past life kept him from the death necessary to life. Suttree is a book from the same province where only a Socrates or Seneca has ventured.

Parallels between Suttree and BM: Both books could be interpreted as beginning and ending with death/rebirth of the protagonist. (BM has an additional one in Chapter 22.)"

Are we the only ones left here????
This book is so HOT right now?
Where's the discussion???????????

[bentley]

Erato said:

Bentley, maybe you can "google" a Blood Meridian Support Group on-line???

Bentley Responded:

That is hysterical..no, I plan to abstain from that book and any future films..me no worries...

[bentley]

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"Suttree is Cormac's suicide book. He had to die to his old life. Alcohol was symptomatic of his refusal to die, not his alienation. The alienation was not the result of a specific act by his family, they were simply the immediate tribal unit of the culture and history of mankind that he had to die to. The corpse both was and wasn't him. He was passive only in this sense: his guilt about separation from his past life kept him from the death necessary to life. Suttree is a book from the same province where only a Socrates or Seneca has ventured.

Parallels between Suttree and BM: Both books could be interpreted as beginning and ending with death/rebirth of the protagonist. (BM has an additional one in Chapter 22.)"

Are we the only ones left here????
This book is so HOT right now?
Where's the discussion???????????

---

I had never heard that Cormac had any problem; if he did..the above makes sense.
I have no idea..I have basically stayed in the Community Room for the time being because I finished reading the book. PaulH started a thread on morels (regarding the possibility that something was actually growing that could be eaten as food) and I responded to that. But it seems most folks must either be still reading the book or are done. In the library, there were a few people in the stacks all looking for the McCarthy books..so there is a new group of readers who have just discovered him as an author (I am one of them).

I am wondering if the Oprah folks are not just simply on the Oprah thread..not sure. I did browse what folks had to say over there but found the discussions here to be deeper and more interesting. I have never posted in that forum. I am interested to hear when the McCarthy interview will air. I do not want to miss it so I check regularly. Have you heard.

If there is a topic that you want to discuss on The Road, why not open a thread of your own with the topic. At least I will join in. We may be the only folks here..maybe PaulH is away for the weekend..usually there are at least the three (3) of us. I just want to keep chipping away at McCarthy to see what I can find out about him and his books. The Road did have a profound impact on me.

[Mariposa]

Hi!

I am still here. I have been reading all the posts, but since I have read no other McCarthy book except for No Country for Old Men I had nothing to say in regard to his other books.

I heard from someone that Oprah had posted a list of interesting discussion questions. Perhaps if we posted them here it might restart the conversation. Does anyone have access to those questions? I heard they were good.


Lizabeth

[bentley]

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dianearbus wrote:
Hi!

I am still here. I have been reading all the posts, but since I have read no other McCarthy book except for No Country for Old Men I had nothing to say in regard to his other books.

I heard from someone that Oprah had posted a list of interesting discussion questions. Perhaps if we posted them here it might restart the conversation. Does anyone have access to those questions? I heard they were good.


Lizabeth

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Hi dianearbus:

I know Erato and I are glad you are here. Hope I am not speaking out of turn Erato..but I am glad that you are here Lizabeth.

Here is a question for you: do you plan to read any of the other McCarthy books..Yes or No..and why or why not?

I have access to the Oprah site but you also can gain access to the bookclub location and see the discussion questions. From what I recall, they are really not much different than what PaulH has introduced and/or folks have brought up on their own. If you have a discussion point that you would like to initiate, I doubt that PaulH would mind if you opened up a thread for that purpose. You could always check with him first. But I would join in at least to support you (if OK with PaulH since he is the moderator).

I completed The Road in about a day so I was really ready for that discussion awhile ago. So I have been turning my attention to other McCarthy books to get a better read on him as an author and man. Not sure that I have come any closer to understanding him as a person any better but I have discovered some common threads in his novels.

[Mariposa]

In answer to your question about why I am not going to read the other McCarthy books is that I have other books right now I want to read. I am in two other book clubs and I am trying to keep up with those schedules. In addition, I am very "into" art and so I tend to read historical fiction that relates to art and I also read books about the history of art. So right now, for example, I am reading four different "books": Old Man Goya by Julia Blackburn, the latest issue of Paris Review, the latest issue of National Geographic, in particular an article on Jamestown (not art related by too interesting to pass up) and I am also slowly reading my way through The Oxford History of Western Art. I also want/need to read a book given to me as a gift in preparation for my trip to Italy, Sacred Art of Florence. All this does not include my book club readings. Oh and I must finish White Noise by Don DeLillo. So there it is...

And honestly, although I really liked the two books by McCarthy that I have read, I was not as wowed as some people were. I found the beginning of The Road trying at times. It was a bit too slow moving for me and although I loved the language, I needed more interaction with other characters and that wasn't happening. I found the conversations here and in one of my other book clubs very helpful in gaining more insight into the book. That really helped to make the reading a more enjoyable literary experience. It forced me to look into the book more. I am very curious how the book will translate into a film without some alterations.


Lizabeth

[bentley]

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dianearbus wrote:
In answer to your question about why I am not going to read the other McCarthy books is that I have other books right now I want to read. I am in two other book clubs and I am trying to keep up with those schedules. In addition, I am very "into" art and so I tend to read historical fiction that relates to art and I also read books about the history of art. So right now, for example, I am reading four different "books": Old Man Goya by Julia Blackburn, the latest issue of Paris Review, the latest issue of National Geographic, in particular an article on Jamestown (not art related by too interesting to pass up) and I am also slowly reading my way through The Oxford History of Western Art. I also want/need to read a book given to me as a gift in preparation for my trip to Italy, Sacred Art of Florence. All this does not include my book club readings. Oh and I must finish White Noise by Don DeLillo. So there it is

Bentley responds:

I think I will respond in two parts:

Well all I can say is wow..you certainly are reading a lot. The question that I was asking was more to do with McCarthy's books themselves. I was curious if you planned to read any other books by this author after reading The Road. Did that one particular book spur you on to reading other books by him. If so, why did it and if not I was also interested in hearing your reasons as well. I think you answered that aptly and very completely. I have never found the time to be in any other book club than the one I am in because of work commitments, etc. It must be very interesting to be able to do that. Where in Italy are you visiting (is it just Florence?) I have visited Italy many times and have never been anything but sad when I was leaving and totally excited at the prospect of going again. I was just there last Fall. On that particular trip I spent a lot of time in Venice and the surrounding islands and then traveled further south around the Amalfi coast. Prior trips were in various other locations in Italy.

[bentley]

Dianearbus (Lizabeth) wrote:

And honestly, although I really liked the two books by McCarthy that I have read, I was not as wowed as some people were. I found the beginning of The Road trying at times. It was a bit too slow moving for me and although I loved the language, I needed more interaction with other characters and that wasn't happening. I found the conversations here and in one of my other book clubs very helpful in gaining more insight into the book. That really helped to make the reading a more enjoyable literary experience. It forced me to look into the book more. I am very curious how the book will translate into a film without some alterations.


Lizabeth

Bentley responds:

Your view of The Road is very interesting. I was wowed by this book but then I was not impressed as others were with Blood Meridian and actually more impressed with No Country for Old Men because I felt more comfortable with it and/or less uncomfortable is probably more the true sentiment. And NCFOM was never "wowed" by the literary world in the way Blood Meridan was. It really is a matter of preference I think and if you happen to enjoy reading a particular author's books and what you think about his/her style and/or subject matter, etc. You more than likely wanted to see more of a plot with memorable characters. I also like the discourse as well and it does force you to take a closer look at the writer and the book. I don't think that The Road will be that difficult to film, however as let us say Blood Meridian except in the way of dialogue and development of the characters (which were both purposely left vague by McCarthy). I will give you an example...I am frankly looking more forward to the next Harry Potter book and film versus another McCarthy one. For me, it is more enjoyable reading. I really cannot use the word "enjoyment" in the same sentence as McCarthy.

However, I cannot discount for me anyways the power and the impact that The Road had on me. It made me feel very uncomfortable with the situation on the planet right now and also with the message of the book. It just was a very different sort of a read for me but moved me tremendously.

Lizabeth..I am so glad that you are still around as well as Erato. Right now, I am trying to see if I can get through Suttree and finish the ALTPH tape.

[Paul_Hochman]

Hi Guys,

Please feel free to post new threads with your questions and comments. That's what these boards are here for. Post away!

As for Suttree or Blood Meridian first...it Really makes no difference. The books are so strikingly different. Some do claim that Ol Sut is a McCarthy-like character. While I'm sure he carries some of Cormac's traits, I'd bet he's a collection of characters McC knew in Knoxville. By the way, a lot of the people in Suttree are modeled after real folks. I haven't read it in awhile, but the rag picker comes to mind.

PaulH

[Erato]

1. Cormac McCarthy has an unmistakable prose style. What do you see as the most distinctive features of that style? How is the writing in The Road in some ways more like poetry than narrative prose?
2. Why do you think McCarthy has chosen not to give his characters names? How do the generic labels of "the man" and "the boy" affect the way in which readers relate to them?
3. How is McCarthy able to make the post-apocalyptic world of The Road seem so real and utterly terrifying? Which descriptive passages are especially vivid and visceral in their depiction of this blasted landscape? What do you find to be the most horrifying features of this world and the survivors who inhabit it?
4. McCarthy doesn't make explicit what kind of catastrophe has ruined the earth and destroyed human civilization, but what might be suggested by the many descriptions of a scorched landscape covered in ash? What is implied by the father's statement that, "On this road there are no godspoke men. They are gone and I am left and they have taken with them the world," [p. 32]?
5. As the father is dying, he tells his son he must go on in order to "carry the fire." When the boy asks if the fire is real, the father says, "It's inside you. It was always there. I can see it" [p. 279]. What is this fire? Why is it so crucial that they not let it die?
6. McCarthy envisions a post-apocalyptic world in which "murder was everywhere upon the land" and the earth would soon be "largely populated by men who would eat your children in front of your eyes" [p. 181]. How difficult or easy is it to imagine McCarthy's nightmare vision actually happening? Do you think people would likely behave as they do in the novel, under the same circumstances? Does it now seem that human civilization is headed toward such an end?
7. The man and the boy think of themselves as the "good guys." In what ways are they like and unlike the "bad guys" they encounter? What do you think McCarthy is suggesting in the scenes in which the boy begs his father to be merciful to the strangers they encounter on the road? How is the boy able to retain his compassion—to be, as one reviewer put it, "compassion incarnate"?
8. The sardonic blind man named Ely who the man and boy encounter on the road tells the father that, "There is no God and we are his prophets" [p. 170]. What does he mean by this? Why does the father say about his son, later in the same conversation, "What if I said that he's a god?" [p. 172] Are we meant to see the son as a savior?
9. The Road takes the form of a classic journey story—a form that dates back to Homer's The Odyssey. To what destination are the man and the boy journeying? In what sense are they "pilgrims"? What, if any, is the symbolic significance of their journey?
10. McCarthy's work often dramatizes the opposition between good and evil, with evil sometimes emerging triumphantly. What does The Road ultimately suggest about good and evil? Which force seems to have greater power in the novel?
11. What makes the relationship between the boy and his father so powerful and poignant? What do they feel for each other? How do they maintain their affection for and faith in each other in such brutal conditions?
12. Why do you think McCarthy ends the novel with the image of trout in mountain streams
before the end of the world—"In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery" [p. 287]. What is surprising about this ending? Does it provide closure, or does it prompt a rethinking of all that has come before? What does it suggest about what lies ahead?

[bentley]

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PaulH wrote:
Hi Guys,

Please feel free to post new threads with your questions and comments. That's what these boards are here for. Post away!

As for Suttree or Blood Meridian first...it Really makes no difference. The books are so strikingly different. Some do claim that Ol Sut is a McCarthy-like character. While I'm sure he carries some of Cormac's traits, I'd bet he's a collection of characters McC knew in Knoxville. By the way, a lot of the people in Suttree are modeled after real folks. I haven't read it in awhile, but the rag picker comes to mind.

PaulH

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Is there a book which examines the connection between the characters in Suttree and real folks?

[Mariposa]

I have no idea how to start a new thread so I am posting here.

6. McCarthy envisions a post-apocalyptic world in which "murder was everywhere upon the land" and the earth would soon be "largely populated by men who would eat your children in front of your eyes" [p. 181]. How difficult or easy is it to imagine McCarthy's nightmare vision actually happening? Do you think people would likely behave as they do in the novel, under the same circumstances? Does it now seem that human civilization is headed toward such an end?


As I mentioned before I am reading an article about Jamestown (Creating America) in National Geographic (May 2007).

From page 39:
Things would get ugly before Powhatan was proved wrong. By the beginning of 1610, the settlers at Jamestown were dining on "dogs, cats, rats and mice,"...With famine "ghastly and pale in every face," some colonists stirred themselves to "dig up dead corpse(s) out of the graves and to eat them." One man murdered his pregnant wife and "salted her for his food." When John Rolfe arrived that spring, only about 60 peple at Jamestown had survived what was to be called "the starving time."

People have behaved that way before and in my opinion, for much less reason than in The Road.

I think it is possible we are headed toward such an end, but part of me is so incredibly hopeful, that I always feel something will save us from total annihilation. There is so much to be cherished even among the devastation. There is so much beauty hidden under the ashes just waiting to be rediscovered.


Lizabeth

[bentley]

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dianearbus wrote:
I have no idea how to start a new thread so I am posting here.

6. McCarthy envisions a post-apocalyptic world in which "murder was everywhere upon the land" and the earth would soon be "largely populated by men who would eat your children in front of your eyes" [p. 181]. How difficult or easy is it to imagine McCarthy's nightmare vision actually happening? Do you think people would likely behave as they do in the novel, under the same circumstances? Does it now seem that human civilization is headed toward such an end?


As I mentioned before I am reading an article about Jamestown (Creating America) in National Geographic (May 2007).

From page 39:
Things would get ugly before Powhatan was proved wrong. By the beginning of 1610, the settlers at Jamestown were dining on "dogs, cats, rats and mice,"...With famine "ghastly and pale in every face," some colonists stirred themselves to "dig up dead corpse(s) out of the graves and to eat them." One man murdered his pregnant wife and "salted her for his food." When John Rolfe arrived that spring, only about 60 peple at Jamestown had survived what was to be called "the starving time."

People have behaved that way before and in my opinion, for much less reason than in The Road.

I think it is possible we are headed toward such an end, but part of me is so incredibly hopeful, that I always feel something will save us from total annihilation. There is so much to be cherished even among the devastation. There is so much beauty hidden under the ashes just waiting to be rediscovered.


Lizabeth

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That Jamestown excerpt is amazing. "Uncomfortable" is the word that I most associate with how I feel when reading McCarthy. I guess I am always surprised at the levels that humans will stoop; but also pleasantly surprised how the human spirit can soar. There seems to be always choices. I can understand eating things that you might otherwise not eat if you were starving..(I don't know maybe worms); but certainly not becoming cannibalistic and the pregnant wife example is beyond comprehension to me. I always hope that because people behaved that way before that they wouldn't do it again.

Message Edited by bentley on 04-22-200701:50 PM

[bentley]

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dianearbus wrote:
I have no idea how to start a new thread so


Lizabeth

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Lizabeth..if you go to the screen which lists the different threads for The Road..you would be able to start a thread by clicking on New Message. That should work.

[Erato]

Lizabeth and Bentley.....great posts!

WHAT would you really do in desperate situations?
I honestly feel that one doesn't know the answer to that until it presents itself. This is one of the reasons I think that McCartney disturbs us so much and yet we are a bit mesmerized because we don't "think" we'd be capable of such horrific acts....but at some level, we are not sure. Just how strong is the 'survival' gene?
Surely it is different in everyone. Clearly the man's wife chose a different 'ROAD'.

My current F2F book club is reading "SURVIVAL IN THE ANDES" by Nando Parrado which I haven't started as yet, but know will include the eating of human flesh for survival. I wasn't looking forward to this after so much McCarthy, but yesterday one of my book club members said another member just finished it an said it was one of the BEST books she's ever read and I know her to be a voracious and thoughtful reader. So perhaps I'll enjoy it after all?

Bentley, is there a way I could contact you outside of this forum? I tried the send a message through the forum link, but it failed. I do have some info that may be of interest to you.

[bentley]

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Erato wrote:
Lizabeth and Bentley.....great posts!

WHAT would you really do in desperate situations?
I honestly feel that one doesn't know the answer to that until it presents itself. This is one of the reasons I think that McCartney disturbs us so much and yet we are a bit mesmerized because we don't "think" we'd be capable of such horrific acts....but at some level, we are not sure. Just how strong is the 'survival' gene?
Surely it is different in everyone. Clearly the man's wife chose a different 'ROAD'.

My current F2F book club is reading "SURVIVAL IN THE ANDES" by Nando Parrado which I haven't started as yet, but know will include the eating of human flesh for survival. I wasn't looking forward to this after so much McCarthy, but yesterday one of my book club members said another member just finished it an said it was one of the BEST books she's ever read and I know her to be a voracious and thoughtful reader. So perhaps I'll enjoy it after all?

Bentley, is there a way I could contact you outside of this forum? I tried the send a message through the forum link, but it failed. I do have some info that may be of interest to you.

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Erato,

You should be receiving a note from me. The book Survival in the Andes sounds like it is an eyeopener. I just hope that we are never in that situation to have to find out. I also am one who subscribes to the Woody Allen way of thinking..here is one of his quotes that I love.

I'm not afraid of dying - I just don't want to be there when it happens! - Woody Allen