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Paul_Hochman
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The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

[ Edited ]
Crime Fiction, by definition, is not for the squeamish or the easily rattled, as evidenced by the following passage:


"You are one disloyal a@$hole," I told him without much passion.

He closed his sad brown eyes.

"No more disloyal than you," he said.

"There's a difference," I explained. "I did it to save my skin, you did it for the goddamn money."

"What are you going to do to me?"

"I'm going to salvage your honor, my friend," I said.

Hector understood. He blinked away the tears, flinched.

I pulled the trigger, blowing off the top part of his head, his blood and brains spraying over me.


Blood and brains may even pale in terms of the violence that is portrayed as of late in Crime Fiction. Gone are the days of a simple stabbing in a train cabin. Today that American tourist would not only be stabbed, he’d be lit a fire, dragged from the train, and forcibly held down while being decapitated by the wheels of the locomotive.

Seriously. Are today’s crime writers writing violence simply for the sake of violence? Have the violent scenes co-opted the plots themselves? Some critics think so. What do think?

Message Edited by PaulH on 09-14-2007 11:52 AM
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CharlesArdai
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

Violence has, of course, been part of crime fiction from the beginning; certainly it's been part of fictional depictions of crime going back to the Bible, Greek tragedies, and Shakespeare. Jumping ahead a few centuries, CRIME AND PUNISHMENT doesn't shrink from depicting violence, and the brutal murder toward the end of OLIVER TWIST gave me nightmares when I encountered it in grade school.

The mystery genre was more genteel in the so-called classical era of Conan Doyle and Christie and Sayers -- more monocles and curare-tipped darts, fewer skulls smashed open with the blunt end of an axe -- but then along came Mickey Spillane, and though he was roundly condemned for bringing a new level of intense and graphic violence to the page, his books sold tens of millions of copies and didn't turn a generation into a pack of maniacal killers.

So, are crime novels really more violent now than they used to be? Yes and no, I'd say. Certainly in the aftermath of THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS we've seen more sadistic serial killers, more gory tableaus (tableaux?), more depictions of outrageous or over-the-top slaughter. Writers do seem sometimes to be trying to outdo each other by finding ever-more-ingenious ways to off victims (or at least to torment them). But a) this only is the case in a subset of the genre (the average crime novel is probably no more violent than it used to be, it's just that those novels on the violent end of the spectrum, while not more numerous than in the past, are more extreme than they used to be); and b) I have the feelig that the increasingly unpleasant violence in these books is probably only keeping pace with increasing levels of violence elsewhere in people's lives these days (in a world where a quick Internet search will call up footage of Saddam Hussein's hanging or a terrorist beheading, it's hard to call what goes on in even a pretty violent crime novel "beyond the pale").

Does that mean I like all the eye-gouging, bone-snapping, blood-spurting, limb-sawing physical cruelty turning up in (some) crime novels these days? No. Perhaps surprisingly, given that I edit a line of hard-boiled crime novels, I generally don't find graphic depictions of extreme violence entertaining and prefer not to read them. But I also don't think there's anything wrong with people writing or publishing or reading them; and I don't think there's any danger that they'll overrun the genre and crowd out the less violent fare.

I also don't much like cats or cat mysteries, and for a while it seemed as though there was an increasing number of those on the shelves every year (cat mysteries, not cats themselves); but in the end the cat mystery level equilibrated, and no one who didn't feel like reading about a four-legged sleuth with hairballs was forced to do so.

Same thing here: Not everyone likes reading about people being cut in half by shotgun blasts to the chest or crucified in a killer's basement or what-have-you. But that's okay. If you don't like it, don't read it...

--Charles
-------
Charles Ardai
Editor, Hard Case Crime


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Curt42
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

One of the discussions we had in the mystery club was the diffence between a cozy and a hardboiled is the level of violence. In a cozy, most of the murders take place, as they say in the movies, off camera. Occasionally like Christie's DEATH ON THE NILE, a murder will take place centerstage, but it is not common. In a hardboiled, there can be several murders per book that are part of the central action, some of them done by the main character. Most of these murders are non-graphic - somebody get shot, there is blood, they die. Now some of the more recent books get a little more graphic. There are also physical controntations. In almost every book, Travis Magee ends all tied up as a victim to someone (or sometimes several someones). Violence is part of the nature of a hardboiled.
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CharlesArdai
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

I think you're right -- violence is an inextricable part of almost all crime fiction, but it's especially central to hardboiled crime fiction. But there's violence and then there's violence. I'd even say there's on-screen violence and then there's on-screen violence. I mean, seeing a tough guy take a punch in the kisser or a bullet in the back is a far cry from a graphic depiction of dismemberment, with arterial blood spraying everywhere, or of sadistic torture.

I'm not saying people shouldn't write scenes like that; heck, I've written a few myself. But there are certainly some scenes being written and published in mainstream books today that you'd simply never have seen 50 years ago, and I understand why some readers (even some readers who love "classic" hardboiled novels) might not want to read that sort of thing.

To use a film analogy, I'm entirely comfortable watching "Die Hard," which is wall-to-wall violence, but I feel a bit queasy after watching some of the scenes from films like "Saw" and "Hostel."

--Charles
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Charles Ardai
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JasonStarr
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

I agree that there's violence and there's violence. In my own writing I'm not necessarily against graphic violence and will never go out of my way to avoid describing violence. That said, there's a fine line, I think, to describing violence that is realistic and violence that is gratuitous. Every reader will have their own opinion on how much is too much, so it's probably impossible satisfy everyone on this issue. I don't like it when I feel like a writer is witholding the violence for me. If someone is shot in the head, I like to get a visual image of it, more so than "the bullet went into his head." I don't need to see a page of gore, but there needs to be some language that at least gives me the sense of what happened. When I'm writing, I don't like to censor myself. I won't withold the violence because it might offend somebody, but I try not to go overboard with it either. Some readers will notice that although some of my books have been described as very dark crime novels, they really don't have very much blood in them. Regarding crime fiction overall, I think there's a trend toward more graphic crime fiction, sort of Elmore Leonard meets Horror Fiction, so to speak. I think crime fiction that isn't as graphic is also doing very well right now, so readers can choose what they like most.
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tmwisnes
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction



CharlesArdai wrote:
I think you're right -- violence is an inextricable part of almost all crime fiction, but it's especially central to hardboiled crime fiction. But there's violence and then there's violence. I'd even say there's on-screen violence and then there's on-screen violence. I mean, seeing a tough guy take a punch in the kisser or a bullet in the back is a far cry from a graphic depiction of dismemberment, with arterial blood spraying everywhere, or of sadistic torture.

I'm not saying people shouldn't write scenes like that; heck, I've written a few myself. But there are certainly some scenes being written and published in mainstream books today that you'd simply never have seen 50 years ago, and I understand why some readers (even some readers who love "classic" hardboiled novels) might not want to read that sort of thing.

To use a film analogy, I'm entirely comfortable watching "Die Hard," which is wall-to-wall violence, but I feel a bit queasy after watching some of the scenes from films like "Saw" and "Hostel."

--Charles
------------
Charles Ardai
Editor, Hard Case Crime




I think that people in general are becoming more and more desensitized by levels of violence, therefore needing or wanting more--both movies and books. I completely agree with your analogy of "Die Hard" and "Hostel." "Die Hard" was quite violent in its time, and "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" was like a "Hostel" movie at the time. "Hostel" was almost sickening, even beyond the imaginations and ideas of "Texas Chainsaw Massacre." I don't doubt that there is true evil violence that exists, I'm just not sure that we need to see it or read about it. Then again, TV is close behind. If we are being exposed to the some of the most haineous violence now, what else could there be? It's hard to think about...
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CharlesArdai
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

It's true that violent entertainment these days is getting pretty extreme -- but in my experience these things come in cycles. Even people who like that sort of thing will eventually find themselves glutted with it, the books and films that supply it will start doing less well, and then for a decade or so you won't see a lot of them (just as for a decade or so we didn't see any Westerns at the movie theaters). Then someone will rediscover it and the whole thing will start over again.

--Charles


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SteveAllan
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

I know this sounds weird, but I like violence - not the type that the innocents in life suffer, but the "romanticized" violence of fiction, or sports for that matter. There's even a part of me that enjoys a good fight. When I used to go out drinking in the Old Port in Portland (Maine), one of the best parts of the night was getting a slice of pizza after the bars closed and wait for the inevitable fist fights that would break out. Does that mean there's something wrong with me? Well, probably. But I think there will always be a fascination with violence, and I doubt I'm the only sicko out there...I hope.

Perhaps the escalation of violence in movies and books is a comment on the world we live in. Movies certainly became more and more violent during the Vietnam War when scenes of dead and wounded soldiers were broadcasted on the 6 o'clock news. Even though we are "protected" from the horrible sights of our current war, I think it's the sick images and stories in the news about football players nearly decapitating his ex-wife's head, or a husband killing his pregnent wife, or little beauty pageant girls murdered in her family's basement that occupy our disgust, that causes fear of the outside world. Maybe fictionalized violence allows us some control, even though we may be engrossed in a book or movie filled with violent passages, we know that it's just a book or just a movie. Ratcheting up the stakes creates a sense of absurdity (Hannibal Lecter cutting open the top of someone's skull so he may cook his brains and feed it to him; a demented psycho using a drill to cut into the leg of some co-ed), an environment so ridiculous as to make the real world less scary. Does that make sense?
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Paul_Hochman
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

Okay, Steve. Step slowly away from the keyboard :smileyhappy:

Of course, you're making perfect sense. Just look at the rise in popularity of say ultimate fighting. Violence is a big part of today's world be it in media, music, or the occasional dust up in the Old Port :smileywink:




SteveAllan wrote:
I know this sounds weird, but I like violence - not the type that the innocents in life suffer, but the "romanticized" violence of fiction, or sports for that matter. There's even a part of me that enjoys a good fight. When I used to go out drinking in the Old Port in Portland (Maine), one of the best parts of the night was getting a slice of pizza after the bars closed and wait for the inevitable fist fights that would break out. Does that mean there's something wrong with me? Well, probably. But I think there will always be a fascination with violence, and I doubt I'm the only sicko out there...I hope.

Perhaps the escalation of violence in movies and books is a comment on the world we live in. Movies certainly became more and more violent during the Vietnam War when scenes of dead and wounded soldiers were broadcasted on the 6 o'clock news. Even though we are "protected" from the horrible sights of our current war, I think it's the sick images and stories in the news about football players nearly decapitating his ex-wife's head, or a husband killing his pregnent wife, or little beauty pageant girls murdered in her family's basement that occupy our disgust, that causes fear of the outside world. Maybe fictionalized violence allows us some control, even though we may be engrossed in a book or movie filled with violent passages, we know that it's just a book or just a movie. Ratcheting up the stakes creates a sense of absurdity (Hannibal Lecter cutting open the top of someone's skull so he may cook his brains and feed it to him; a demented psycho using a drill to cut into the leg of some co-ed), an environment so ridiculous as to make the real world less scary. Does that make sense?


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shewan
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

I think that the rise in violence in crime novels is the same in all media. When I was a kid and wanted a Body Count album my parents wouldn't buy it for me because of the parental advisory sticker on the cover. I can't even remember the last time I've seen one of those stickers anywhere. I guess rapping about killing cops isn't sensational anymore. The same thing applies to books of any kind.

I just read Jack Ketchum's Off Season for the first time and I remember being younger and having the horror guys I knew lose their minds over this book but in comparison to what's commonplace now, it's a pretty light romp.

I'm sure the first time Spillane's work was released people thought it was over the top. It pushed the envelope. That's what being crucified in your kidnapper's basement is today. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just offering that as a possible cause.

I guess I'm saying it takes more to get a rise out of people using violence.
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DanaKing
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

As a fledgling writer of hard-boiled fiction, I often struggle with how much violence to include in a story, and how graphically to describe it. The solution I have found for myself was drawn from how my favorite writers tend to handle the situation.

While not shying away from it, I prefer to give the reader enough of a description to prime the imagination, then leave him to it, if I want to provoke a reaction. The reader’s imagination will concoct something scarier – to him – than anything I could come up with.
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Curt42
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

In an earlier post on this thread, I said that violence is a key component of the hard boiled style. Picking up on the later discussion, I think I have to raise the issue of how graphic the violence is. I am more a fan of the older stuff because it is less graphic. There seems to be a trend among the more contemporary writers (not all, but some) to see who can "out gross" the most. Levels of detail have reached a new high. This parallels what is happening in the movies. Is it more realistic? Probably. Does this glorify violence or make it more repulsive? This depends on who you talk to. What it does do however it "dumbs down" the book. This allows the reader to use less of his imagination and rely more on the printed word, or in the case of a movie, the action on a screen. To change to a different media, one of the greatest scenes in a movie is the shower scene in Alfred Hitchcock's PSYCHO. I have people tell me that you can see the knife thrust into her. No, but Hitchcock filmed it in such a way that your mind filled in the gaps. Maybe authors are being laxy now that they think they have to tell the audience, in this case, the readers, everything. Let the readers fill in the blanks. They probably can do a better job at it if the lead up and sequencing is good.
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Libbyfh
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

I just got on board and saw this thread. As it happens, I saw EASTERN PROMISES last week and blogged about violence at THE OUTFIT(www,theoutfitcollective.com) I'll reprint a bit of it here.. it echoes some of the comments already made:

"I used to criticize the depiction of graphic violence for all the reasons you’re supposed to: It’s sensationalist. It’s a wretched role model for kids. It’s a simplistic, cruel resolution to conflict. It wreaks unnecessary destruction and damage. Like most of us, I bought into the moral constraints. Konrad Lorenz might remind us of our animal instincts, but surely, as civilized beings, we could understand the price of violence and tame those primate brain stems.Recently, though, I’m not so sure. It’s not just all the violence we see around us. Or the excuses (religious, protective or whatever) that some members of our society use to perpetrate it. The problem is that it’s getting personal...I go to the target range occasionally – and I love it. I find it an incredibly empowering experience. I’m probably going to apply for a FOID card. I’ve also learned a little about knives and have found a knife – the Hideaway – that I’m considering buying.
Which raises an interesting issue: let’s assume that we can strip away all the moral strictures and guilt surrounding violence. All the “shouldn’ts” and “wouldn’ts.” Who among us wouldn’t want to blow someone away if they ticked you off badly enough? If you knew there would be no consequences, would you refrain from using violence against another person?"

I'm not sure I know the answer to that. And it disturbs me.

Thanks, Charles. Great topic.
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Lord_Jim
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

This is a lot more meandering than it should be, but my original post was lost and I'm tired so here goes:


I'll play devil's (angel's?) advocate and say that I do not really like reading about graphic violence, and that contemporary authors do seem more loose about using it. It has to do with cultural desensitization and simply being able to get away with more these days; with these two things making more and more room for one another. Or something. You can chalk it up to taste (I'd rather not) but I don't see the entertainment value in reading about heinous torture-murder #893 or watching college kids get their faces powerdrilled off for 90 minutes.

My main complaint about this use of violence is that there isn't a philosophy behind it. By this I don't mean that those doing the violence have no motives, but that the motive rarely matters: they're just an engine to generate death scenarios. Greed, revenge, bad childhood, mental illness - just make the character a serial killer or a violent sociopath and you have an easy bogeyman to drive your story and act as the hero's foil. My other complaint (I'm full of them, trust me) is that a high body-count is often detrimental to a story's credibility if not handled properly. An otherwise good crime novel can end up reading like an action movie screen treatment for this very reason. One of noir's many unpleasant messages is that life is cheap, but when the author seems to be saying "life is cheap, but not my main characters' lives", the story sinks. I'm not explaining this as well as I'd like, so maybe an example will help.

Red Harvest is basically murder after murder after murder, but it affects you accordingly. By the end you're soaked in this noir fatalism and understand exactly why the Continental Op is so stone-faced and stubborn in the first place. Compare this with James Ellroy's American Tabloid, which, for its many merits, is almost cartoonish in how blood-soaked it is. You can only write about teeth getting knocked out, executions by the dozen, and guys getting chainsawed to death so many times before you're in Grand Guignol territory.

In "The Simple Art of Murder", Chandler says Hammett "gave murder back to the kind of people that commit it for reasons, not just to provide a corpse". I'm not sure I'd agree that Hammett (or even Chandler) stuck to that 100% of the time, but I think murder has been largely returned to the people who just need fresh corpses.
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CharlesArdai
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

I agree with you, actually -- and very much appreciate your well-argued, well-expressed post.

But as long as we're playing devil's advocate, how is it different for a lazy author to fill his book with too much easy sensation in the form of violence, and to do so at the expense of his story's credibility (and, for many readers, its appeal), than it is for a similarly lazy author to fill his book with too much easy sensation in the form of excessive comedy (wisecracks every few sentences, constant amusing observations), or excessive lyrical pathos (yeah, sure, the fog is sooo thick), or excessive anything else?

Good writers will be able to use any tool in their kit better than bad writers, obviously; a good writer can put a murder in every chapter or a joke on every page and make you feel it (or earn the laugh, or whatever). A bad writer will just fill the pages and make you feel a bit queasy for wasting your time with sub-par work.

From this point of view, the problem isn't so much the amount or type of violence (or of sex, or of humor, or whatever) as it is the skill with which this element is handled.

Now, obviously this is true on some level -- who could argue that bad writing is not the fault of bad writers? -- but I admit that at the gut level I feel there is something more odious to me as a reader about badly done, excessive violence than about badly done, excessive comedy, or sex, or lyricism. Other forms of bad writing simply disappoint me -- they don't disgust me. But being purely rational about it, I can't say that there's some inherent difference that makes one worse than the other.

If we seriously thought that reading excessive violence in crime novels might make readers more violent (I don't), we might have utilitarian grounds for opposing it; but on purely artistic grounds I have to say I can only oppose it in the same way, and to the same extent, I oppose all other forms of bad writing.

--Charles


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Sandra_Ruttan
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

I don’t think it’s possible to really assess the appropriateness of violence in crime fiction, or the intent of authors who include more details of the violence, in a vacuum. It is my opinion that it isn’t possible to make hard and fast rules about the inclusion of violence, or even the level of description in a book. I realize some have checklists (dead dog=author is scum of the universe) but I personally feel that’s shortsighted.

An author has a responsibility to include what’s necessary to tell the story. Every component of the work should have a purpose. It may set the tone, reveal character, advance the plot… This is true of the nature and level of violence included in a work as well. In one book, a torture scene might be completely appropriate, and in another it might be gratuitous. When I review, that’s a question I consider. Gratuitous violence, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder to some degree, which means the conclusions are always subjective. What I find amusing is when reviewers or authors make sweeping generalizations about the level of violence in books.

I blogged about a radio program back in July, in the wake of Harrogate Crime Festival, when an author went on BBC and made some strong statements about violence in crime fiction. He said: “What could be more old-fashioned and artificial than that? I’ll tell you what. It’s the gritty, realistic, blood-soaked corrosive rubbish that you see spattered all over Waterstones every day…


“What is sad is that crime fiction, which is supposed to be entertainment, should try and think it’s superior enough to take on these major, gritty, realistic, subjects like child abuse and they love to have a violent scene with perhaps some woman or child being tortured. Is that what we want to read? Yes, if you’re a serious novelist, by all means tackle big social subjects but not if you’re a crime writer.” He goes on to say, “What we do want to avoid is the pornography of violence that is so prevalent.”

First of all, it’s highly generalized to say that the entire genre is “blood-soaked corrosive rubbish”. However, it’s his further comments, about the purpose of crime fiction being entertainment, that I take offense to.

An ideal book will entertain, but resonate. It is my own opinion that the worst sin a book can commit is being utterly forgettable. With crime fiction, one of the central issues of a work is the crime. As a result, how that is handled is critical. To me, it goes hand in hand with the tone of the story. I considered calling it the work’s ‘moral center’ but that might be a bit much.

I have read many Agatha Christie books, and others, that maintained a standard of poison and bloodless crimes. In classics, I accept that the era the author worked in had a bearing on the level of violence portrayed in the work. I feel differently about works now, where an author makes pronouncements about wanting murder to be civilized, something to be discussed over tea and crumpets (as one Canadian author declared about their work). I find that attitude more offensive than anything I’ve read in a book.

Why? For me, the reason is partially personal. When I was 14 I was assaulted. It isn’t the only violence I’ve experienced in my life, as I also grew up in an abusive home. To me, one of the things that authors often neglect is the development of the victim. They become a plot device, almost nameless, faceless, just an excuse for a hero to go after a bad guy.

When I read, the books that linger for me are the ones that go deeper on some level. Crime is serious, it rips apart lives, it destroys a person’s sense of security, trust, well-being (sometimes emotionally, sometimes physically, sometimes both). This does not mean that I need to see every detail on the page. I can read that a man pinned a woman down and pried her legs apart, and read later in a medical report they found glass or wood splinters and I’ve got the idea. I don’t need to witness every second of the attack to understand what happened to her, or be horrified by it.

But I do want to have a sense that what happened mattered. In order to understand the seriousness of some crimes, you need to understand their nature. That means the author has a responsibility to give enough detail to help us understand what’s going on.

I have worked out issues reading crime fiction, and I have friends who have as well. It doesn’t bother me when I read things that cut close to what I experienced myself. In fact, there’s a unique sense of connection. Being a “victim” can be isolating. Most people don’t want to hear about it, because they don’t want to be confronted with another person’s pain. It’s not like we have a standard reference manual for the appropriate things to say to someone after they
a) were raped
b) attacked and almost died
c) watched someone kill their child

When I read something in a book I really connect with, that I can relate to from my own experiences, it tells me I’m not alone. Someone else in the world understands. But in a book where the author has gone to lengths to keep it bloodless and light and make sure nobody’s put off their lunch, I’ve been left to take offense at the cavalier manner they use toward the crime.

And ultimately, that’s what separates the wheat from the chaff. I think MONEY SHOT is proof that you can write a book that’s a damn entertaining read, that also says something. I fear saying too much on that level, because I don’t want to give spoilers, but Faust will have a lot to talk about in interviews. The beauty is that, like the best works of fiction, the messages in the book aren’t like pop-up sermons. They fit the nature of the story and are interwoven in a way that makes the reader think without pulling them out of the story.

And for the most part, the books I enjoy most are about the journey of the main character(s). As they are confronted by things, they struggle to deal with them. Over the course of time the crimes they’re confronting take a toll, and that is realistic. The problem with bloodless crimes that nobody gets too worked up over, in my opinion, is that your character can’t really be affected by them. After all, you’re taking such care to make sure nobody else is disturbed, so seeing a bad crime scene isn’t going to prompt your protag to drink, or keep them awake at nights. Let’s just keep it all nice and civilized so that nobody’s too offended by the crime… so why should anyone care?



The thing for me is, if I don’t care, why read it? 



“The trouble with too many contemporary novels is that they are full of people not worth knowing. They characters slide in and out of the mind with hardly a ripple. They levy no tax on the memory; they make little claim on the connecting power of identification. They make only the skimpiest contribution to an understanding of the human situation. They leave you cold.” - Norman Cousins

Identification is about more than keeping it civilized so nobody loses their appetite after they’ve stumbled over the body in the parlor. What connects us all as people, what we all share regardless of gender, race or nationality, is that we live with the limitations of the flesh. “If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that” - Shakespeare.

If someone is punched, I expect them to bruise. Kicked, the same. Stabbed, they’ll bleed. And it may be necessary to experience the victim’s pain in order to understand their subsequent choices or to fully appreciate the sense of loss other characters feel as a result of their death, or how they’ve changed as a person. I don’t advocate carnage for the sake of carnage. I advocate appropriateness. I don’t exactly like reading violence, or writing it, but I also don’t enjoy reading sex. However, I can be fine with both if they fit the tone of the work. It’s not about what’s included, it’s about how why its included and how an author handles it on the page. What an author includes should fit with the nature of the story they’re telling.

It’s fair to say it really bothers me when some claim the moral high ground as they make sweeping generalizations about the reasons for violence in crime fiction, or the intent. There are undoubtedly authors who do substitute violence for plot, but I will not discount the legitimate purpose of violence in crime fiction because of the actions of a few.

(I’m not saying anyone here took the moral high ground – I’m speaking generally. I also haven’t identified the authors I quoted because my intent was to keep on the topic of the discussion, not to make it personal. Ultimately, I feel everyone has the right to decide what works for them, or what doesn’t, and there is room in the genre for everything. It may not be my thing, but that doesn’t make it worthless. That’s what really bothers me about the comments I quoted. Nobody has the right to determine for me what a work of fiction is allowed to mean to me, or to anyone else, or where that line is. I've read more graphic and disturbing violence studying the Old Testament than I have in most works of crime fiction.)


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SteveAllan
Posts: 21
Registered: ‎10-01-2007
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

Sandra,

Excellent point. Disturbing violence, and not the type of romantized violence that I mentioned above, does serve a purpose. Reading your post I was reminded of the awful scenes of abuse in BASTARD OUT OF CAROLINA, without which the book would not be even half as memorable. I have a scene in one piece of work that I continually go over because of the violence, trying to show why a character would be so affected by an event while balancing the threat of exploitation.

I join you in being annoyed by someone calling crime fiction nothing but entertainment and unable to comment on society - apparently they don't consider crime a societal problem. Sure, there are books in the genre that never rise above their intentions of entertaining the reader; but there are plenty that reflect society, and sometimes society is violent and disturbing. Should the genre ignore reality?

On the other hand, while I'm not really put off by gratuitous violence (and that can be pretty subjective), I do get bored with it - of course one then has to wonder: what does that say about me?
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allanguthrie
Posts: 7
Registered: ‎09-09-2007
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

I certainly don't shy away from writing graphic violence in my own books, but I don't think any of it's gratuitous (mind you, I suspect all writers make this claim). I'm also a big believer in conveying sensory detail as strongly as possible, so if I'm writing about violence from the point of view of the victim (which, latterly, I've tended to do), I'll do my best to try to convey the victim's pain to the reader. It's certainly not lazy writing in my case, since I find it damned difficult. The more reportorial approach I used in previous novels is much easier.

A great piece of violent writing is the end of John D MacDonald's Gold Medal novel, SLAM THE BIG DOOR. It's graphic, but in an ingenious way. Kurt Vonnegut called it 'a symphony of violence'. Unfortunately the rest of the book is as dull as mud (and I speak as a JDM admirer -- SOFT TOUCH is terrific), but if you own a copy and haven't yet read it, check out the first part of chapter eleven. DEATH PROOF, 1960.

On the subject of hardboiled = on-stage violence. Interestingly, RED HARVEST was thought by Knopf (Hammett's publisher) to be too violent, so Hammett edited a lot of the violence out of it before publication. By the time he wrote THE MALTESE FALCON, he'd pretty much decided that as much of the violence as possible should take place off-stage. So maybe one of the great hardboiled novels is actually a cozy!

Al


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JamesK
Posts: 2
Registered: ‎11-20-2007
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

Reading this thread put me in mind of the end of Death of a Citizen by Donald Hamilton. It actually shocked me when I recently reread it for the first time as an adult, but it wasn't really that graphic, and the worst part did take place off-screen.

I haven't watched any of the recent torture films, but I've seen my share of '70's and '80's Italian horror garbage, so I agree that it does come in cycles.

I like both the realistic depiction of violence that helps us understand our pain and vulnerability, and the cartoonish overkill in escapism. I only get offended when the two are sloppily mixed together for non artistically valid reasons.
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ahartley
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎11-21-2007
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Re: The Crime Rate is Up: Violence in Crime Fiction

I do agree there is more widespread description of the violent acts than there was before in all of our media just as there is more description of the sexual acts. There were a few authors that presented these scenes in earlier works. However, now there are many more authors and many more of them that provide this type of crime writing. Dispite the available violence and sexual acts in the writing today, I read a mix of both. I like both the more subtle authors that describe the action on the surface with just enough to give the immage AND the authors that provide more vigourously described action that give you every last detail. It truely depends on the story around the viloence. If there is a "killer" story and little detail of the actual acts, it can be just as entertaining as a great story with more detail. When I read, I am absorbed into the story and see it all in color and action and not words on a page. If the story cannot provide that rhythm, that loss of time and space, no matter the gore, I put it down and move on to another. Am I adversely affected by the books I read? No.
I do draw the line for myself with horror, though. I do not enjoy the non-realistic horror that gives me nightmares and unrealistic fear of the dark. Others can handle that and that is ok. Dolls that kill will give me far more grief than a serial killer that slices up his victims or collects body parts. Give me a sadistic serial killer being chased by a cop, detective, agent, or a killer after one person that fights back and I am good.
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