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Inspired Bibliophile
Psychee
Posts: 7,307
Registered: ‎04-17-2007

Re: Drug Legalization

Chad, I think you might be confusing post WWII sentiment with post-WWI sentiment.  After the first world war, there WAS concern about Germans influencing the young through getting them on drugs, but I don't ever recall people worrying about "the Commies" influencing them through that particular means. 

 

Anti-marijuana sentiment pre-dated the Cold War by many many years.

 

In truth, I think most of the laws making it a criminal offense to use or grow marijuana had much more to do with negative sentiment toward Mexican immigrants, as they had brought the local loco weed with them and enjoyed using it for its intoxicating effects.   Prior to that, we had a lot of hemp grown here, but people were not using it that way.

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L_Monty
Posts: 900
Registered: ‎12-30-2008

Re: Drug Legalization

[ Edited ]

 

Psychee wrote:

Chad, I think you might be confusing post WWII sentiment with post-WWI sentiment.  After the first world war, there WAS concern about Germans influencing the young through getting them on drugs, but I don't ever recall people worrying about "the Commies" influencing them through that particular means. 

 

Anti-marijuana sentiment pre-dated the Cold War by many many years.

 

In truth, I think most of the laws making it a criminal offense to use or grow marijuana had much more to do with negative sentiment toward Mexican immigrants, as they had brought the local loco weed with them and enjoyed using it for its intoxicating effects.   Prior to that, we had a lot of hemp grown here, but people were not using it that way.

 

 

Yeah, this is pretty much the mainstream dual-cause theory.

 

One, that prohibitionists who campaigned against alcohol campaigned equally as hard against other drugs, notably marijuana, opium and cocaine. The immigrant-related narrative doesn't really have much basis in historical fact so much as marketing. By painting it as a foreign drug, consumed in ecstatic orgies or brain-denuding seductive rituals by a spooooooky foreign people, it had more social traction than as a mere chemical name. After all, it was already sold in the U.S. for decades under its chemical and Latin biological name, and could be found in tonics, ointments and other unregulated pharmacopoeia. So the Mexican thing is empty spin on the level of 2009's "Mexicans cause Swine Flu, You're Not Gonna Get It Anywhere Else; Seal the Borders" media narrative. In both cases, the "problem" had multiple points of origin and multiple opinions on its severity; it just got freighted with scary images and marshaled in support of an existing political aim. Prohibitionists wanted the nation off drugs; Minutemen want Mexicans off the nation's soil; let's blame some Mexicans for something; you get the idea.

 

Two, the other fairly reasonable operant theory is that the U.S. wanted to criminalize hemp production to boost the synthetics industry. Depending on the person imparting this to you, you might get the angry stoner refrain of "the government knew there was, like, a free solution, man, so they had to shut it down to line the pockets of the big business that really controls things, maaaaan," which is the kind of narrative you hear about supposed water-powered cars and other utopian things General Motors killed along with the Freemasons who hide the aliens who've been here ever since Roswell, etc.

 

But a less conspiratorial reading sees a nation subsidizing agricultural inactivity and the destruction of crops due to a glut of agricultural production and wanting to avoid the expansion of crippling market saturation into yet another avenue of agricultural production. Concomitantly, you would ideally see the expansion of a new industry, synthetics, which would employ more people outside of the agricultural sector, which was already overproducing and under-compensating the people in it.

 

Finally, this was 1937, and Roosevelt and Stimson had already anticipated a war in the pacific as early as the Mukden incident in 1932. Forecasts had an expansionist Japanese Imperial Navy capturing Pacific Islands for vital natural supplies (this was pretty much the reason for Imperial expansion), which naturally would deprive the United States of resources in territories to which they had access or with which they had trade. Further, you have Nazi Germany remilitarizing the Rhineland in 1936, and Hitler speaking undisguisedly about German expansion. In short, they anticipated the real possibility of a war on two fronts and saw the value of incentivizing the development of profitable synthetics markets because a fully operational synthetics industry would contribute invaluably to war materiel. Of course, the government could grow its own hemp as needed, because the terms of the criminalization were actually tax-related, and the government wouldn't pay tax to itself so, ipso facto, it was a-okay.

 

As for marijuana and the cold war, I've never seen any literature on the subject — to the point that this is the first time I've ever heard it suggested — linking its criminalization or legality to the genesis of U.S./Soviet hostilities. The generally agreed-upon explanations are fairly boring and fairly familiar, but I don't have the time at the moment to start with 19th century pan-Slavism, the Great Game, then go through Brest-Litovsk to Yalta to Kennan to Containment Theory, so I guess all I have is please trust me when I say it's best to leave the pot out of it.

RTA
Wordsmith
RTA
Posts: 920
Registered: ‎08-19-2008

Re: Drug Legalization

L_Monty wrote:

blah, blah Greenwald blah

Greenwald’s series on drug decriminalization in Portugal.  And here’s Greenwald’s report to the CATO Institute: “Drug Decriminalization in Portugal: Lessons for Creating Fair and Successful Drug Policies.”  Highly recommended, it’s fantastic work. 

 

Also, just because it’s timely, topical and fun, the “Quote of the Day” from Above the Law:

 

I have been a lifelong cannabis user, on an almost daily basis since I was in high school. I am now the managing partner of a very successful law firm in the Washington, D.C. area.

 

I have been in a professional law practice for almost 27 years. I work 60+ hours a week, and all of that hard work has translated into high levels of annual income.

 

I still get high after work, almost every day….

 

– A marijuana-using managing partner (and parent of pot-smoking daughters), in an email to Andrew Sullivan.

Inspired Bibliophile
Psychee
Posts: 7,307
Registered: ‎04-17-2007
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Re: Drug Legalization

There is a quite entertaining article here called "The History of the Non-medical Use of Drugs in the United States".  In it, the author reports excerpts from the congressional hearings in 1937 that I found really fascinating.

 

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm

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chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: Drug Legalization

I'd like to continue with my paranoia for just a bit longer and see what we come up with. A few general statements follow, and anyone can comment on any or all. And thanks Monty, and all, for the info on "the weed." (Too much info" is often how I feel when I talk about this topic and the other thread on the "homosexual ban."):smileyvery-happy: 

 

 

Marijuanna and communism were directly linked by McCarthy in the "McCarthy era."- this is something I just "webtrawled", but I was not sure of the web's accuracy.

 

There is a "war" on drugs, but the "war" is not over? If the war is over, then we were successful only in part. That is, we're still growing and smoking weed illegally, among other things. Maybe not as much as we used to?

 

Finally, alcohol and drugs are not compatible with work.

 

Chad

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Jon_B
Posts: 1,893
Registered: ‎07-15-2008
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Re: Drug Legalization

 

chad wrote:

 

Finally, alcohol and drugs are not compatible with work.

 

Chad

 

 

 

Certainly many drugs are not compatabile with work.  Caffeine, however, is a drug and is very compatable with work.

 

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chad
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Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: Drug Legalization

[ Edited ]

"Certainly many drugs are not compatabile with work.  Caffeine, however, is a drug and is very compatable with work."

 

And Jon I agree with you to some extent. People have overdosed on caffeine. But, to the best of my knowledge, employers don't drug test for caffeine. I cannot rule out the possibility that the use of marijuanna, alcohol and other drugs have been restricted or prohibited because of their incompatibility with work- to be more specific to my general statement, but thanks for responding!

 

Chad

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Jon_B
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Registered: ‎07-15-2008
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Re: Drug Legalization

If B&N drug tested for caffeine they'd have to fire the entire office!

 

 

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crzynwrd4lf
Posts: 503
Registered: ‎04-04-2010
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Re: Drug Legalization

 

JonB wrote:

If B&N drug tested for caffeine they'd have to fire the entire office!

 

 

 

Not only that but many stores have a cafe in them. That's drug possession and intent to sell lol!:smileyvery-happy:

 

"One potato, two potato, three potato, four/ she's coming for you now, you better lock the door"-- Promise Not To Tell
Distinguished Bibliophile
TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: Drug Legalization

Medical marijuana to be OK in some VA clinics

WASHINGTON — Patients treated at Veterans Affairs hospitals and clinics will be able to use medical marijuana in the 14 states where it's legal, according to new federal guidelines.

The directive from the Veterans Affairs Department in the coming week is intended to clarify current policy that says veterans can be denied pain medication if they use illegal drugs. Veterans groups have complained for years that this could bar veterans from VA benefits if they were caught using medical marijuana.

The new guidance does not authorize VA doctors to begin prescribing medical marijuana, which is considered an illegal drug under federal law. But it will now make clear that in the 14 states where state and federal law are in conflict, VA clinics generally will allow the use of medical marijuana for veterans already taking it under other clinicians.

"For years, there have been veterans coming back from the Iraq war who needed medical marijuana and had to decide whether they were willing to cut down on their VA medications," John Targowski, a legal adviser to the group Veterans for Medical Marijuana Access, which worked with the VA on the issue.

Targowski in an interview Saturday said that confusion over the government's policy might have led some veterans to distrust their doctors or avoid the VA system.

Dr. Robert A. Petzel, the VA's undersecretary for health, sent a letter to Veterans for Medical Marijuana Access this month that spells out the department's policy. The guidelines will be distributed to the VA's 900 care facilities around the country in the next week.

Petzel makes clear that a VA doctor could reserve the right to modify a veteran's treatment plan if there were risks of a bad interaction with other drugs.

"If a veteran obtains and uses medical marijuana in a manner consistent with state law, testing positive for marijuana would not preclude the veteran from receiving opioids for pain management" in a VA facility, Petzel wrote. "The discretion to prescribe, or not prescribe, opioids in conjunction with medical marijuana, should be determined on clinical grounds."

Opioids are narcotic painkillers, and include morphine, oxycodone and methadone.

Under the previous policy, local VA clinics in some of the 14 states, such as Michigan, had opted to allow the use of medical marijuana because there no rule explicitly prohibiting them from doing so.

According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, there are 14 states and the District of Columbia with medical marijuana laws. They are: Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington. New Jersey also recently passed a medical marijuana law, which is scheduled to be implemented next January.

 


Very Interesting this.

 

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chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Drug Legalization

[ Edited ]

I had to bring this one up again. Alcohol was prohibited at the beginning of workers unions @ 1920's and then marijuanna was banned during/after large-scale unionization which took place @ 1950's. Are we aware of the connection between drug illegalization and worker productivity? I found it hard to believe that people were unaware of the connection when employers sometimes had asked me to pee in a cup. Moreover, the controversy now is about the health benefits of marijuanna . I don't doubt that there are health benefits to using marijuanna, but name an employer entirely concerned about my health- what a joke:smileyvery-happy:

 

Chad 

 

PS- Drugs, illegal and legal, can improve productivity, and reports( i.e. news and other sources) were that employers really did not care that employees were using drugs, legal or illegal, as long as productivity was up- whatever that was.....leave alone the side effects of the legal drugs, old and new, made available to employees with depression, sleep disorders and so on- another hot topic.....Some control over some drugs were needed, and hard to concieve of: maybe some people were even allowed to make a buck off of the drugs we illegalized. As I stated, the drug war was never really won....

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chad
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Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: Drug Legalization

Worker's unions had been forming and growing since @ beginning of the 20th century, leading to the prohibition of alcohol  in the 1920's, and then later leading to the prohibition of marijuanna in the 1930's. Others reasons are cited for the prohibition of these two substances, but mainly, inmy opinion, the prohibitions were attempts by industry leaders to control production, of both their own products and the production of either alcohol or marijuanna, and to control the economy in general.

 

Union factoids

 

The Clayton Act was passed in 1914- giving more power to the unions.

1920- prohibiton of alcohol

 

1933- formation of auto workers union

1937- prohibition of marijuanna- Anslinger finds a way to make a buck off the illegalization of marijuanna and then does it again in ....

  

1950 -this time with anti-commie buddy, McCarthy   

1955- the newly formed AFL-CIO

 

1970- the formation of the postal workers union

1970- Under the Controlled Substances Act of 1970, marijuana is classified as a Schedule I

 

Oh, and so much more.....

 

 

Chad

 

PS- The US has always been about trying to maintain law and order through their policemen in the wake of income disparity in a defined economy.

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TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: Drug Legalization

Not to interupt Chad's theory. But after reading this, it just seamed the perfect example of the absurdity of our current drug war. So I had to share.:smileywink:

 

 



Mexican gangs using catapults to hurl pot into US

HERMOSILLO, Mexico — Drug smugglers are using an ancient invention as a new way to move marijuana across the border from Mexico to Arizona.

The discovery of two "drug catapults" in the Mexican state of Sonora marks the latest twist in the cat-and-mouse game traffickers play with authorities.

U.S. National Guard troops operating a remote surveillance system at the Naco Border Patrol Station say they observed several people preparing a catapult and launching packages over the fence late last week.

A Mexican army officer says the 3-yard (3-meter) tall catapult was found about 20 yards (20 meters) from the U.S. border on a flatbed towed by a sports utility vehicle.

The officer says the catapult was capable of launching 4.4 pounds (2 kilograms) of marijuana at a time. He says soldiers seized 35 pounds (16 kilograms) of pot, the vehicle and the catapult.

The smugglers left before they could be captured. The surveillance video of them using the catapult was released Wednesday.

A second catapult was discovered Thursday in near Agua Prieta, another border town. Another army officer in that area said an anonymous tip led soldiers to the scene and the catapult was similar to the first.

Mexican officials say it is the first time they have seen this smuggling method used by local traffickers.

Mexican traffickers have previously used planes, tunnels, vehicles, boats and couriers to smuggle drugs into the United States. Colombian drug traffickers have even used homemade submarines.

 


 

 

 

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chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: Drug Legalization

[ Edited ]

TiggerBear wrote:

Not to interupt Chad's theory. But after reading this, it just seamed the perfect example of the absurdity of our current drug war. So I had to share.:smileywink:

 

 



Mexican gangs using catapults to hurl pot into US

HERMOSILLO, Mexico — Drug smugglers are using an ancient invention as a new way to move marijuana across the border from Mexico to Arizona.

The discovery of two "drug catapults" in the Mexican state of Sonora marks the latest twist in the cat-and-mouse game traffickers play with authorities.

U.S. National Guard troops operating a remote surveillance system at the Naco Border Patrol Station say they observed several people preparing a catapult and launching packages over the fence late last week.

A Mexican army officer says the 3-yard (3-meter) tall catapult was found about 20 yards (20 meters) from the U.S. border on a flatbed towed by a sports utility vehicle.

The officer says the catapult was capable of launching 4.4 pounds (2 kilograms) of marijuana at a time. He says soldiers seized 35 pounds (16 kilograms) of pot, the vehicle and the catapult.

The smugglers left before they could be captured. The surveillance video of them using the catapult was released Wednesday.

A second catapult was discovered Thursday in near Agua Prieta, another border town. Another army officer in that area said an anonymous tip led soldiers to the scene and the catapult was similar to the first.

Mexican officials say it is the first time they have seen this smuggling method used by local traffickers.

Mexican traffickers have previously used planes, tunnels, vehicles, boats and couriers to smuggle drugs into the United States. Colombian drug traffickers have even used homemade submarines.

 


 

 

 


I also should admit that substances like marijuanna and alcohol can undermine society, which is one of the reasons leading to their prohibitions- I'm not sure it is the main reason. There are smoking and drinking ages which have been raised and lowered....4.4 pounds of marijuanna wouldn't break through a wall of a castle, and if it made it over the top, someone would have to smoke it. Root problems that we are unable to solve?

 

Chad

 

PS- I think the dollar is as strong as the Americans are- more and more, as strong as the people in China are. So a pot smoking U.S. and China is something we may not be able to have, although both countries could probably use the commodity... 

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chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: Drug Legalization

[ Edited ]

I thought I would just add to a conversation I left:

 

We take stimulants, most notably caffeine in the form of a daily cup of coffee, of all kinds to help cope with the pace of school, work or just the daily routine of the modern lives we live. I always stop over at the coffee shop, but I also do decaf.:smileyvery-happy: But illegal narcotics like crystal meth and cocaine, or other forms of amphetamines are used to help the user cope with the pace of life, besides giving the user perhaps other "euphoric" effects. Pharmaceutical companies produced "safer" alternative drugs like ritalin and adderall to help stimulate the mind and help the user to "focus." (And I think they created drugs for what seemed to be a newly created disorder, most notably ADHD.:smileysurprised:)

 

It always, for me anyway, seemed to come down to major life changes that the world is still not quite ready for...so what can you do? I hope for the best as always.....:smileywink:

 

Chad

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carusmm
Posts: 361
Registered: ‎03-28-2011
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Books are a drug

I can't say that reality bothers me that much.

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chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: Books are a drug

 

I can't say that reality bothers me that much.

 

 


 

 

?- Well, one reality might be better than another. But some of these illegal drugs come from the natural world and I might be healthier off amphetamines entirely rather than on safer, legal alternatives. Moreover, drugs like Coke and Crystal Meth are being used largely in big cities and suburbs of big cities where the pace of life is a little faster, and not used on farms in the middle of Kansas. I may decide to grow them on a farm in the middle of Kansas, however:smileyvery-happy:- but I don't speak for all of the farms in Kansas.

 

Books seem to me to be a healthier addiction, but you have to realize that Nature has many forms of communication that we're still trying to comprehend.

 

Chad

 

 

PS- But it doesn't bother you that someone might be in a pharmaceutical company trying to make a buck off a drug that you don't necessarily need? Moreover, they're making up a new disorder so that you do need it.....Sometimes people can change the way the they live.....

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carusmm
Posts: 361
Registered: ‎03-28-2011
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Re: Books are a drug


chad wrote:

 

I can't say that reality bothers me that much.

 

 


 

 

?- Well, one reality might be better than another. But some of these illegal drugs come from the natural world and I might be healthier off amphetamines entirely rather than on safer, legal alternatives. Moreover, drugs like Coke and Crystal Meth are being used largely in big cities and suburbs of big cities where the pace of life is a little faster, and not used on farms in the middle of Kansas. I may decide to grow them on a farm in the middle of Kansas, however:smileyvery-happy:- but I don't speak for all of the farms in Kansas.

 

Books seem to me to be a healthier addiction, but you have to realize that Nature has many forms of communication that we're still trying to comprehend.

 

Chad

 

 

PS- But it doesn't bother you that someone might be in a pharmaceutical company trying to make a buck off a drug that you don't necessarily need? Moreover, they're making up a new disorder so that you do need it.....Sometimes people can change the way the they live.....


Evil is in the world, Chad, I wish to be no part of it.

Reader 4
CuriousGeoff
Posts: 2
Registered: ‎05-17-2011

Re: Drug Legaliazion

[ Edited ]

I don't think marijuana should have been made illegal in the first place. It's less dangerous than alcohol and tobacco cigarettes, and it has medicinal uses, unlike the aforementioned two. It's virtually harmless in and of itself (aside from the cardiovascular damage smoking anything can do to people). As I understand, the only reason it was illegalized in the first place was because Mexicans brought it over in the early 1900's, and so it was propagandized against way back then, movies made about how it causes people to kill and go insane, etc. when in fact it does nothing of the sort. And after that the government kept churning out more excuses, more lame and contradictory than the last, until now they're just saying "You know what, we don't know what it does, but we won't let you find out." The government lets people test marijuana if they get a permit from the government...but they don't give any permits out.

 

If they do end up decriminalizing it I'm movin' to California, just sayin'.

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chad
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Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: Drug Legaliazion


CuriousGeoff wrote:

I don't think marijuana should have been made illegal in the first place. It's less dangerous than alcohol and tobacco cigarettes, and it has medicinal uses, unlike the aforementioned two. It's virtually harmless in and of itself (aside from the cardiovascular damage smoking anything can do to people). As I understand, the only reason it was illegalized in the first place was because Mexicans brought it over in the early 1900's, and so it was propagandized against way back then, movies made about how it causes people to kill and go insane, etc. when in fact it does nothing of the sort. And after that the government kept churning out more excuses, more lame and contradictory than the last, until now they're just saying "You know what, we don't know what it does, but we won't let you find out." The government lets people test marijuana if they get a permit from the government...but they don't give any permits out.

 

If they do end up decriminalizing it I'm movin' to California, just sayin'.


 

Hi CuriousGeoff!

 

That's also a large increase of "legal" immigration of Mexicans who joined the American workforce in the early 1900's. To me, the illegalization of substances like alcohol, marijuanna, etc. were attempts by to control production and use of not only the substances themselves, but also the production of other goods and servoces that big business cared to produce. But I saw the illegalization of these substances as mainly politically "reactionary" to the large scale unionization that was taking place in our country. But the illegalization obviously did little to improve the production of anything and no one really seemed to be able to "corner the market" on any substance during their prohibitions (although we had our mobsters, drug lords etc.) 

 

Money, or wages, is generally what I think worker unions are about, and maybe a little bit about the health and safety of workers. And that may be why there had been very little knowledge about the health benefits of any of them- that is, neither the industrialists were going to tell you about the health benefits, nor would the union leaders, or union members, who probably would not tolerate someone making more money than they did by selling doobies. And the only people that made money were perhaps the members of the new bureaucracies formed in the federal government from the illegalization of these drugs.

 

The whole drug issue constantly stinks to me of people trying to make a buck off them. And the only time people seemed to care if I ever used them was when I landed a job- and I hardly ever felt employers tested because they were concerned for my health. It was an obvious point I would never have made were it not for the B&N board :smileyvery-happy: but only because no one made it...... 

 

Anyway, I still need to hear more about the health benefits of all of them. I had to take this nasty position on marijuanna that will probably wind me up in jail- but only on B&N:smileymad:

 

 

.Chad

 

PS- I came across one fact: one third of all workers in 1960 belonged to a union.... incredible....also, that marijuanna was also brought in from Cuba through the port of New Orleans..I also knew about Mexico as well- still catapulting weed over the border apparently.