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UN
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UN
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

May I also add few notes on what MasoudA said in relation to the Persian ceremonies in Iran after the 1979 revolution:

In order to show their hate of the imposed Islamic culture by the IR (as opposed to the freedom of choice of religion, dress etc, that we had b4 the revolution, and UK has it today) majority of Iranians celebrate those ancient rituals much stronger that those days when they were free to do it. This is another reaction to the reactionary regyme of Iran, and I thought it should be mentioned here. Prior to 1979, nobody put his/her life at risk for those rituals but today, people come in the streets, women without scarfs, and jump from the fire in Charshanbeh Soori (as an example); I have seen many photos on that. There is more political resistance to it that really doing it for the sake of preserving culture, at least primarily (perhaps this is where Masoud and I may slightly differ on this matter although this does not need to change the discussion). Many Iranians take every peaceful opportunity to show their hate of the imposed Islamic culture by the IR. And no, they are not risking their lives to overthrow the IR in large extent 'yet', but the time is coming and the west really, and truly, needs to realise this, and indirectly cooperate in any ways they can when thefire starts.      

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Timbuktu2
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

UN, I find this fascinating and it's something that the West, obviously has no knowledge of.  I wonder if you could desribe, a little more, what the Persian culture vs the Arab culture means to you.  As a Jew I know that it is possible for a people to maintain a culture in exile over thousands of years.  I believe there was an area in Afghanastan that maintained it's Greek culture from the time of Alexander until the Taliban recently wiped them out.  They practiced ancient Greek religious rites, ate Greek style food and created Greek goldwork, thousands of years after Greece had conquered Afghanastan (Bactria).  The human spirit can be indomitable.  I'd love to know more about how the Persian sense of identity was and is maintained in Iran.
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Timbuktu2
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

Also, are you saying that Zoorastrianism is still practiced?
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

[ Edited ]

Everyman wrote:

As you will know Masoud, the UK has centuries of 'culture' too...

 

As internationalists will know, English culture is quite recent compared to Persian.  By the time Beowulf was written, the Epic of Gilgamesh had been around for more than 2,500 years.  

 

While the best the early Brits could do, and it was impressive in its own way but no match for other cultures, was  Stonehenge, estimated to date from about 2,500 BC, but after that the didn't build much, and certainly no significant cities, until the Romans came; meanwhile, the Persians were building great cities, and such extraordinary feats of constructoin as the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, construction on a scale the British didn't match until the advent of Medieval castles and cathedrals. 



 

While I certainly agree with you about Persia being an advanced civilization well before the existence of the same in Britain, I don't think you'll find many historians who would describe either the Hanging Gardens of Babylon or the Epic of Gilgamesh as "Persian".  

 

The Epic of Gilgamesh is Sumerian and the Hanging Gardens were built by the Chaldean Babylonians.  Neither of these groups is "Persian" - both are from what is now southern Iraq, whereas the Persians originated on the Iranian Plateau - and the Chaldeans in fact were enemies of the Persians more often than not.

 

 

Message Edited by Jon_B on 01-26-2009 07:37 AM
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UN
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

[ Edited ]

T2: ... what the Persian culture vs the Arab culture means to you.  As a Jew I know that it is possible for a people to maintain a culture in exile over thousands of years.  I believe there was an area in Afghanastan that maintained it's Greek culture from the time of Alexander until the Taliban recently wiped them out ..... The human spirit can be indomitable.  I'd love to know more about how the Persian sense of identity was and is maintained in Iran.

 

UN: I wish more of this kind of Qs are asked from Iranians. Raising the right Q sometimes is the solution to big problems as much as raising a wrong Q can be harming. To all Iranians, Arab culture and Persian culture are very different. You will not find one Iranian saying differently even my remote causin who is a member of "corrective actions for purification of women" (or something like that!! u may have heard that they arrest women with improper Islamic coverage). What happened to us in 1400 years ago was that Islam found its way to Iran but Arabic culture could not survive after a short time. My evidence is the Persian poetry and literature spanning from 1200 - 400 years ago, before the domination of clergy to Iranians' lives due to threats from Ottomans (and supported by a lack of democratic governments then like many parts of the world). This means that the Arab-Persian cultural clash in Iran was a myth up until 1979 when for the second time we were hit by a strong wave of Islamo-Arab culture this time with force, torture, jail, and severe penalties. And my previous post was referring to this latter period. Since 1979, Iranians strongly oppose to the Arabic culture that through the Islamic thesis of the IR is trying to expand its territories there. For example, the Sivand dam project, if initiated by the Shah would not have created slightest opposition of the type we have now in Iran bcs people would not dream for a minute that Shah was against the Persian heritage, building a dam that may some day cover the Cyrus the great tomb (and honestly, I don't even think that the dam would ever create that much reservoir in the first place). But do u know how many times people have destroyed the preparation site, destroyed the road that carries building equipments here, have taken foreign reporters to the site to show their disgust to the IR plans for the dam, etc etc. I only gave you ONE example. Now, again I don't even think that the dam is going to be of any threat to the tomb loool but it shows how strongly people are trying to preserve their heritage from an aggressive ideology. Did I answer ur Q? or I was side tracking?   

 

T2: Do u still believe that Zoroastrianism is still being practiced in Iran?

 

UN: Zoroaster lives in our hearts and our minds. My evidence is the millions of names that Iranians now adopt for their new-born children, derivatives from the Avesta book of Zoroaster, from Mitraism ancient books, and some of them are mind blowing to me as an Iranian; making me feel so inferior and incompetent about the history and culture of my country now that I have been away for 30 years. A parralell force is the IR imposition of its Islamo Arabic rules. So, yes Zoroaster lives in our hearts and minds we may or may not know it consciously but we act like it (e.g., Nowruz tradition, percentage of the Iranian weblogs allocated to these events compared to very little bloggs related to Islam unless financed/supported by the IR).

 

BTW, you may know that I am a born-again Christian. A strong one too who believes the only cure for the humanity is LOVE ONE ANOTHER. But did u find any resemblence between me and an American evangelist (as an example)? What makes me different? Am I less Christian than a typical American evangelist? I don't think so.

Message Edited by UN on 01-26-2009 11:54 AM
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

Thanks UN.  I would love to hear anything you want to share.  I had been told that Zoorastrianism only exists among the Parsi in India.  There is a temple in the suburbs of Chicago as there are many Indian immigrants here.    There is also a huge Bahai temple here.  I've heard the discrimination against Bahai is quite extreme in Iran.  Anything you want to say about that?  

 

 

As someone who knows both the Western mind-set and the Iranian mind-set, how do you explain the shift in policy in the US? 

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UN
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

[ Edited ]
T2: ... I had been told that Zoorastrianism only exists among the Parsi in India.  There is a temple in the suburbs of Chicago as there are many Indian immigrants here.    There is also a huge Bahai temple here.  I've heard the discrimination against Bahai is quite extreme in Iran.  Anything you want to say about that?  

 

UN: Parsi in India openly practice Zoroastrianism, Iranians are not practicing it except for a small minority. But this small minority are highly respected by Iranians as a symbol of Persian culture (like many Iranians, I don't believe in it as a religion, but as an "a'een" or "way of life" ). A lot of Iranians in 1980s tried to convert to Zoroasterianism but the were initially rejected by the high priest on the basis of 'reaction against the IR is not a good ground to convert to this religion, but later on they changed their policy and now a large number of Iranians have adopted this religion. Nobody knows exact number, and definitely the number does not appear in the official statistics generated by the IR (as for many other data they generate). Besides, many of these new converst do not volunteer to put their lives at risk to officially announce their conversion otherwise they will be stoned to death (Qoranic law for born-as-moslems). The Bahai faith is totally different but certainly they are in even more trouble with the IR because they believe that the absent Imam has already came and was killed by a Ghajaar king in around 1850 (Mahdi, the name of the Shias absent Imam, is the Ahmadinejaad's favorite Emaam who will one day appear from a wail, and Jesus and other absent 'prophets' will pary behind him). There is a special budget allocated by the parliament to look after the wail that Mahdi descended in it when was chased by the enemy; the very illiterate and radical Shiites, and the IR mersanaries have regular ceremonies outside the wail (is it weil or wail?). So that is why Bahais are so hatered by the IR.

 

T2: As someone who knows both the Western mind-set and the Iranian mind-set, how do you explain the shift in policy in the US?

 

UN: The US government primarily works for its own people and as a result when conflicting benefits arise they always (must) look after their own interests and I have heard this from many many Americans/westerners, and they want Iranians to understand this and stop the blame game. The shift that u r talking about is the result of an interest for the US not otherway around. This is despite the conflicting interests that the US has in relation to Israel/Iran. A very difficult task for the US politicians to handle and good luck to them. There are so many conspiracy theories on the issue of political shift alone but overall it appears that the US may at some stage fully normalise relationship with the IR which will make things even more difficult for Iranians' struggle for freedom. If that happens, as an Iranian, I would say that this would be one step backward for the US, and the beginning of the end of the US supremacy in the world of politics; now is this what Americans want? Obviously it seems to be the case (saying that, I do not claim that I fully understand american politics as a whole and only see glimpse of it that relates to Iran and the ME).   

Message Edited by UN on 01-26-2009 12:45 PM
Message Edited by UN on 01-26-2009 12:49 PM
Message Edited by UN on 01-26-2009 12:51 PM
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

[ Edited ]

Dear Choisya - Not for your sake, not for mine and Iran's but for the sake of all of us including and especialy the British  - I will try once more to explain what I have been trying to say here - since I believe the Persian Culture holds the key to the ultimate peace in the middle east, in in some of the now endangered European countries such as Spain, France and England.  

 

1- The are two dominant cultures in the Middle East (Isreal aside), Persian and the Arab cultures. 

2- Persian culture, because of it's strong science, arts and literature background is very strong in Iran as well as the ex-Persian Empire teritories.  Ex Russian state of Tajikestan is a good example of resurgence of the strong Persian culture despite decades of oppression under the communists.   Today in Iran despite all efforts by the Islamic government, children know far more about Rumi, Hafez, Ferdosi, Saadi, Khayam,.......teachings than they about Islam.   Of-course prior to the 1978 revolution children were exposed to the Persian culture at home, within the society, as well as in schools - while today children encounter little of Persian Culture in schools.  

 

But here is what is crucial and must be noted by westerners and the world pacemakers;

 

Under the Persian culture children are tought love and tolerance for all.   Via teachings of our poets and philosophers, Persian kids learn to love life of in all forms in the environment.   From the 1st grade in elementary school our culture teaches kids to not hurt hard working ants !! (i.e. famous Ferdosi poem).   It certainly no accident there has yet to be a terror act committed by Persians.    While there has been many suicides in Iran but you will not find a Persian child willing to die and take other innocent lives in the process.

 

Hence, to fight terrorism and to win the war against the terror network -we have no choice but to promote Persian culture in the ME, because the alternative - well you all know by know about the Arab culture !! not just ISlam - the whole pre-Islam Arab culture, which influenced Islam more than allowing Islam to fix it !!!     

Message Edited by masoudA on 01-26-2009 01:09 PM
Message Edited by masoudA on 01-26-2009 01:18 PM
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

That's good UN. Long may it continue. 

 


UN wrote:

May I also add few notes on what MasoudA said in relation to the Persian ceremonies in Iran after the 1979 revolution:

In order to show their hate of the imposed Islamic culture by the IR (as opposed to the freedom of choice of religion, dress etc, that we had b4 the revolution, and UK has it today) majority of Iranians celebrate those ancient rituals much stronger that those days when they were free to do it. This is another reaction to the reactionary regyme of Iran, and I thought it should be mentioned here. Prior to 1979, nobody put his/her life at risk for those rituals but today, people come in the streets, women without scarfs, and jump from the fire in Charshanbeh Soori (as an example); I have seen many photos on that. There is more political resistance to it that really doing it for the sake of preserving culture, at least primarily (perhaps this is where Masoud and I may slightly differ on this matter although this does not need to change the discussion). Many Iranians take every peaceful opportunity to show their hate of the imposed Islamic culture by the IR. And no, they are not risking their lives to overthrow the IR in large extent 'yet', but the time is coming and the west really, and truly, needs to realise this, and indirectly cooperate in any ways they can when thefire starts.      


 

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Re: Iran has begun to move...

about Persia being an advanced civilization well before the existence of the same in Britain

 

 

I agree Jon although I did not think we were discussing which was the oldest civilisation in the world, just that there were other civilisations which were 'centuries old' and one is Britain, where Celtic scripts and artefacts date back to 500BC and the spectacular Lindisfarne Gospels to 700AD.

 

I think that Mesopatamia, which is now part of Iraq, is generally recognised as the 'cradle of civilisation' but no doubt archeologists will discover something elsewhere which will change this claim.  And of course Sumeria, from whence, as you say, the Epic of Gilgamesh stems, was part of that civilisation.  Michael Wood says (In Search of the First Civilisations) 'All the early civilisations of the Old World arose on rivers, in similar climatic conditions, and around the same latitude. Iraq's contacts with Egypt, the Iranian plateau and the Indus went back deep into prehistory. China, it seems, was a completely original growth.'

 

 

 


Jon_B wrote:

 

While I certainly agree with you about Persia being an advanced civilization well before the existence of the same in Britain, I don't think you'll find many historians who would describe either the Hanging Gardens of Babylon or the Epic of Gilgamesh as "Persian".  

 

The Epic of Gilgamesh is Sumerian and the Hanging Gardens were built by the Chaldean Babylonians.  Neither of these groups is "Persian" - both are from what is now southern Iraq, whereas the Persians originated on the Iranian Plateau - and the Chaldeans in fact were enemies of the Persians more often than not.

 

 

Message Edited by Jon_B on 01-26-2009 07:37 AM

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Re: Iran has begun to move...

 

MasoudA 

...since I believe the Persian Culture holds the key to the ultimate peace in the middle east, in in some of the now endangered European countries such as Spain, France and England..............Hence, to fight terrorism and to win the war against the terror network -we have no choice but to promote Persian culture in the ME...

 

In your admiration of your own culture you are in danger of trying to do to the Middle East and the West what the Arabs did to Persia Masoud!  How do you suppose that other people proud of their culture; Iraqis, Israelis, Saudis, Egyptians, Brits, Spanish, French, Americans even, will take to being told that the Persian one is superior, 'has the key'?   Is that not a way of starting yet more conflicts? 

 

And why do you describe Spain, France and England as being  'endangered'??!!

 

The majority of religions (even Islam!) preach love and tolerance but unfortunately mankind, even Persians, frequently strays from these ideals.  Indeed The Golden Rule, the Ethic of Reciprocity, has been a teaching in most known cultures since records began.  Nor will you find many children, or adults, in the world who are willing to commit jihad, whether they are Persian or not.  And Hindus too are taught not to harm any insect or animal (they are vegetarians). 

 

None of the good teachings you mention are unique to Persia/Iran - they are just sensible rules of living together in peace which have evolved since time began but which evil people from time to time enjoin us to forget.   

 

IMO no culture holds the key to such things and it has been the preaching of the superiority of one culture/religion over another that has led to a lot of the conflict we have seen in the world.  It really is a bit of a cheek to say

'But here is what is crucial and must be noted by westerners and the world peacemakers; Under the Persian culture children are tought love and tolerance for all....'.  Do you suppose that parents/schools are not teaching such things elsewhere, east and west?  Or that western peacemakers are not teaching this?  There may be failures in certain parts of the Islamic world, like Iran, in madrasses run by fanatical mullahs, but by and large this is what all sensible parents, teachers and peacemakers pass on to their children and to suggest otherwise is doing a disservice to billions of nice people who only want to live in peace with their brothers and sisters throughout the world. 

 

 

  

 

     

 


masoudA wrote:

Dear Choisya - Not for your sake, not for mine and Iran's but for the sake of all of us including and especialy the British  - I will try once more to explain what I have been trying to say here - since I believe the Persian Culture holds the key to the ultimate peace in the middle east, in in some of the now endangered European countries such as Spain, France and England.  

 

1- The are two dominant cultures in the Middle East (Isreal aside), Persian and the Arab cultures. 

2- Persian culture, because of it's strong science, arts and literature background is very strong in Iran as well as the ex-Persian Empire teritories.  Ex Russian state of Tajikestan is a good example of resurgence of the strong Persian culture despite decades of oppression under the communists.   Today in Iran despite all efforts by the Islamic government, children know far more about Rumi, Hafez, Ferdosi, Saadi, Khayam,.......teachings than they about Islam.   Of-course prior to the 1978 revolution children were exposed to the Persian culture at home, within the society, as well as in schools - while today children encounter little of Persian Culture in schools.  

 

But here is what is crucial and must be noted by westerners and the world pacemakers;

 

Under the Persian culture children are tought love and tolerance for all.   Via teachings of our poets and philosophers, Persian kids learn to love life of in all forms in the environment.   From the 1st grade in elementary school our culture teaches kids to not hurt hard working ants !! (i.e. famous Ferdosi poem).   It certainly no accident there has yet to be a terror act committed by Persians.    While there has been many suicides in Iran but you will not find a Persian child willing to die and take other innocent lives in the process.

 

Hence, to fight terrorism and to win the war against the terror network -we have no choice but to promote Persian culture in the ME, because the alternative - well you all know by know about the Arab culture !! not just ISlam - the whole pre-Islam Arab culture, which influenced Islam more than allowing Islam to fix it !!!     

 

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Re: Iran has begun to move...

Dear Choysia -

You are mixing nations and nationalities with cultures -

Take Iraq or better yet Afghanistan for instance - These are two nations which were part of the Persian empire and very much influenced by our culture.   Yet they are both also very much influenced by Islam and the Arab culture - and in the case of Afghanistan also influenced by the Mongolian culture.   So there is no such thing as Iraqi culture - this country which was established about 100 years ago has been detached from Persia (in fact our Capital was in Iraq when Arabs took over) but not from it's culture - although unlike Iran, and like Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, ...... they lost their language to the Arabs, hence Arabified to a great degree. 

 

Also - you appear to be dancing around the main subject - do you or do you not agree the what exists in Saudi Arabia is a backward culture and way of life.   Just because the Brits have enjoyed centuries of fringe benefits from the Al-Saud family Kingdom they built in that region does not mean the whole world must sit quietly and observe disintegration of human values worldwide. 

 

As for "Endangered" commnet - France and Spain and England are currently hosting a sub-culture which is promoting hate.   At some point it may have appeared beneficial to Euros to allow in Moslem immigrants to fill voids in their labor force (ala USA with Africans and South Americans) - But believe you me - Euros are not Americans and the South American catholics are not Molsems.  

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Re: Iran has begun to move...

I was quoting from a book by a well known and respected historian Masoud.  I used the word Iraq because that is the word we now use for an area of the world once called Mesopatamia/Sumeria before it came under the rule of the Persians and which is often called by archeologists 'the cradle of civilisation'.  Just because a country's name changes does not mean to say that it does not have a culture going back beyond that name change so of course Iraq has a culture.  Culture means 'the customs, civilisation, and achievements of a particular time or people.'  I realise there is a lot of animosity between Iraqis and Iranians (Sunnis/Shias) but I do not think it is a good idea for it to spill over into our discussion.  Yes, Afghanistan was once part of Persia too but the country we know today was 'created' by the British in the 19th century. It has been Muslim since before the time of Ghenghis Khan in the 13C.  

 

A large part of France was once part of England Masoud and part of our culture, particularly in the south of England, is from Norman French, which has also significantly influenced our language.  So what?  That was then.  Now is now.  Am I, living in the south of England, to say that my county is French and that there is no English culture here? Times move on.

 

I do not particularly like the culture of Saudi Arabia - as I am an atheist I do not like any religious culture.  I do not like many of its laws but I do not like the laws of a lot of countries.   But I am not prepared to call it 'backward' just because it is different from my own.   The Arab and Islamic cultures once led the world in many things - mathematics for instance.  Their history is as worthy as my own but it also has some bad parts, like my own.   And it is not only the Brits who have enjoyed the 'benefits' of the Al-Saud family!  America currently has the greatest oil interest there and I believe the Bush family know the Princes well, which some people think affects US foreign policy. So are they also responsible for the 'disintegration of human values worldwide'?!  I had not, in any case, noticed that human values were disintegrating worldwide, except in times of war. In my lifetime, human values have, if anything, improved, especially those appertaining to women, black people and minority religions.       

 

Britain, Spain and France have hosted many immigrants from many countries and many religions for centuries and it has strengthened our culture.  The catholic culture in Europe was once as full of hate as are Muslims now - did you learn about the horrors of the Inquisition or Bloody Mary? Not very long ago Irish Catholics were preaching hate and bombing us.  Our history is full of such struggles and we have overcome them.  Yes, many UK immigrants are from the British Empire, where there were many Muslims - as in Pakistan, and a few of them are preaching hate, the majority are not. (America has 2 million Muslims and I expect a few of those are preaching hate too.)   What do you suppose we do about it - take the line of the fascist British National Party and deport them all?  I prefer tolerance and peace.

 

 

    

 


masoudA wrote:

Dear Choysia -

You are mixing nations and nationalities with cultures -

Take Iraq or better yet Afghanistan for instance - These are two nations which were part of the Persian empire and very much influenced by our culture.   Yet they are both also very much influenced by Islam and the Arab culture - and in the case of Afghanistan also influenced by the Mongolian culture.   So there is no such thing as Iraqi culture - this country which was established about 100 years ago has been detached from Persia (in fact our Capital was in Iraq when Arabs took over) but not from it's culture - although unlike Iran, and like Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, ...... they lost their language to the Arabs, hence Arabified to a great degree. 

 

Also - you appear to be dancing around the main subject - do you or do you not agree the what exists in Saudi Arabia is a backward culture and way of life.   Just because the Brits have enjoyed centuries of fringe benefits from the Al-Saud family Kingdom they built in that region does not mean the whole world must sit quietly and observe disintegration of human values worldwide. 

 

As for "Endangered" commnet - France and Spain and England are currently hosting a sub-culture which is promoting hate.   At some point it may have appeared beneficial to Euros to allow in Moslem immigrants to fill voids in their labor force (ala USA with Africans and South Americans) - But believe you me - Euros are not Americans and the South American catholics are not Molsems.  


 

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Everyman
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

As primarily a student classical Greek and Rome, I tend to think of the scope of Persia in terms of Darius. 


Jon_B wrote: 

While I certainly agree with you about Persia being an advanced civilization well before the existence of the same in Britain, I don't think you'll find many historians who would describe either the Hanging Gardens of Babylon or the Epic of Gilgamesh as "Persian". 

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Re: Iran has begun to move...


Everyman wrote:

As primarily a student classical Greek and Rome, I tend to think of the scope of Persia in terms of Darius. 


Jon_B wrote: 

While I certainly agree with you about Persia being an advanced civilization well before the existence of the same in Britain, I don't think you'll find many historians who would describe either the Hanging Gardens of Babylon or the Epic of Gilgamesh as "Persian". 


Eman, do you know the Book of Esther?  It's one of the rare times where  we have two sources of ancient history, Greek and Hebrew.    Xerxes was King Ahashverous in Esther.  He comes off rather well.  He has the same vacillating personality as Xerxes.  But you can see that our view of the Persian Empire is the Greek one.  The Hebrews saw the Persians in a good light.    Cyrus freed them.  Xerxes/Ahashveros saved them.
When Persia conquered they only required "earth and water" as you know, and then allowed the conquered people to live pretty much as they had before, as long as they gave tribute.  
The thing about Persia, however, I don't think there's any history of any kind of democracy.  From ancient times to today.  As my Persian friend has said to me "we just have never had a good leader".   If I'm wrong about that, I'd like to know.

 

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Re: Iran has begun to move...

Dear Tku and Eman

When they conqured Iran, as part of their cultural genocide, Arabs destroyed all of our historical references - we are only left with references cast in stonewalls in remote locations, or those which surface now and then in archeological findings.   Therefore, for the most parts, history is left-out at the hands of Greek historians such as Herodotus, Xenephone, etc.    Herodotus calls Persians the biggest liars on earth - because when he came to Persia, we could not show him the all-mighty god we claimed to be the one and only !!!

 

Dear Choisyia -

You are still dancing around the main topic - I did not ask you if you like or dislike the culture that exists today in Sausi Arabia.   The question is: Do you think this culture is backward ?  

As for the theories on the "Cradle of Civilization" - the latest archeological findings of the 1950's challenges all previous theories.   Here is the latest theory: Civilization started around the great central lake of Persia (now known as dashte Kavir).   Don't be fixated on false theories - and as I said before there are several parties interested to undermine the Persian culture - including the antic auction houses in London !!! 

 

BTW - did you know there are many efforts to change the name of Persian Gulf to Arabian Gulf ?   Who knows - in England, you may already be calling it Arabian !!! 

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masoudA
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

Here is part of the Introduction to the book " Ancient Legends, Mystic Charms, and Superstitions of Ireland - By Lady Francesca Wilde, the Great Irish historian. 

 

This source of all life, creed, and culture now on earth, there is no reason to doubt, will be found in Iran, or Persia as we call it, and in the ancient legends and language of the great Iranian people, the head and noblest type of the Aryan races. Endowed with splendid physical beauty, noble intellect, and a rich musical language, the Iranians had also a lofty sense of the relation between man and the spiritual world. They admitted no idols into their temples; their God was the One Supreme Creator and Upholder of all things, whose symbol was the sun and the pure, elemental fire. But as the world grew older and more wicked the pure primal doctrines were obscured by human fancies, the symbol came to be worshipped in place of the God, and the debased idolatries of Babylon, Assyria, and the Canaanite nations were the result. Egypt--grave, wise, learned, mournful Egypt--retained most of the primal truth; but truth was held by the priests as too precious for the crowd, and so they preserved it carefully for themselves and their own caste. They alone knew the ancient and cryptic meaning of the symbols; the people were allowed only to see the outward and visible sign. From Egypt, philosophy, culture, art, and religion came to Greece, but the Greeks moulded these splendid elements after their own fashion, and poured the radiance of beauty over the grave and gloomy mysticism of Egypt. Everything hideous, terrible, and revolting was banished from the Greek Mythology. The Greeks constructed no theory of a devil, and believed in no hell, as a distinct and eternal abode for the lost souls of men. The Greek gods were divinely beautiful, and each divinity in turn was ready to help the mortal that invoked him. The dead in Hades mourned their fate because they could no longer enjoy the glorious beauty of life, but no hard and chilling dogmas doomed them there to the tortures of eternal punishment. Earth, air, the heavens and the sea, the storms and sunshine, the forests and flowers and the purple grapes with which they crowned a god, were all to the Greek poet-mind the manifestations of an all-pervading spiritual power and life. A sublime Pantheism was their creed, that sees gods in everything, yet with one Supreme God over all. Freedom, beauty, art, light, and joy, were the elements of the Greek religion, while the Eternal Wisdom, the Great Athene of the Parthenon, was the peculiar and selected divinity of their own half divine race. Meanwhile other branches of the primal Iranian stock were spreading over the savage central forests of Europe, where they laid the foundation of the great Teuton and Gothic races, the destined world-rulers; but Nature to them was a gloomy and awful mother, and life seemed an endless warfare against the fierce and powerful elemental demons of frost and snow and darkness, by whom the beautiful Sun-god was slain, and who reigned triumphant in that fearful season when the earth was iron and the air was ice, and no beneficent God seemed near to help. Hideous idols imaged these unseen powers, who were propitiated by sanguinary rites: and the men and the god they fashioned were alike as fierce and cruel as the wild beasts of the forest, and the aspects of the savage nature around them. Still the waves of human life kept rolling westward until they surged

 

 

She later discusses how the Catholic Church undermined all Irish cultural rituals and changed them to Christian customs !!

 

 

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Choisya
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

You are still dancing around the main topic - I did not ask you if you like or dislike the culture that exists today in Sausi Arabia.   The question is: Do you think this culture is backward ?  

 

 

You will not draw me into saying whether a culture which is different to my own is therefore 'backward' Masoud.  I am sorry that you find my references false and intended to undermine Persian culture.  It is perhaps best that we do not discuss these matters further since my views appear to upset you.  I nevertheless wish you well in your endeavours to get a different regime in Iran.   

 

 

 


masoudA wrote:

Dear Tku and Eman

When they conqured Iran, as part of their cultural genocide, Arabs destroyed all of our historical references - we are only left with references cast in stonewalls in remote locations, or those which surface now and then in archeological findings.   Therefore, for the most parts, history is left-out at the hands of Greek historians such as Herodotus, Xenephone, etc.    Herodotus calls Persians the biggest liars on earth - because when he came to Persia, we could not show him the all-mighty god we claimed to be the one and only !!!

 

Dear Choisyia -

You are still dancing around the main topic - I did not ask you if you like or dislike the culture that exists today in Sausi Arabia.   The question is: Do you think this culture is backward ?  

As for the theories on the "Cradle of Civilization" - the latest archeological findings of the 1950's challenges all previous theories.   Here is the latest theory: Civilization started around the great central lake of Persia (now known as dashte Kavir).   Don't be fixated on false theories - and as I said before there are several parties interested to undermine the Persian culture - including the antic auction houses in London !!! 

 

BTW - did you know there are many efforts to change the name of Persian Gulf to Arabian Gulf ?   Who knows - in England, you may already be calling it Arabian !!! 


 

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masoudA
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

I agree dear Choisya -

I am sorry if I appeared a bit aggressive in my posts - It is easy to get that way, while witnessing the genocide in the old country.   The mullhas just ececuted 20 more youngsters, most of them college students.  

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Choisya
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Re: Iran has begun to move...

Thankyou Masoud.  However, Lady Wilde was writing in the early part of the 19th century and a lot of archeological discoveries have been made since then.  No-one doubts that the Persians have an ancient and wonderful culture, as can be seen on this website which also has some very good maps of the changes over the centuries.   Last year I suggested to Laurel that we read part of Ferdowsi's Book of Kings or something similar in the Epics bookclub, because I know that Persian poetry is very fine indeed - I was introduced to it by an Iranian lodger of mine a couple of years ago.