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Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: How to catch wild pigs

You're pardoned.


Choisya wrote:

As a Brit would cynically say 'Pardon me for breathing'!'.

 

 

 

 


Everyman wrote:

Basically, as far as I can see, all your lengthy post says is that we disagree.  Which is hardly news.

 

Did I overlook anything there that you haven't said many times before?  If so, please point it out and I will respond.  If not, I think my views on your views have been adequately discussed in the past and don't need repetition here.  (Loud cheers from posters tired of our repeated back and forths which contain nothing new.)  

 

 


 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: How to catch wild pigs

[ Edited ]

Everyman wrote:

Vouchers:  Your food stamp analogy assumes (there we go again) that private schools will necessarily accept voucher students.  Most grocery stores are required to accept food stamps, but are not required to give a great discount on product for food stamp customers.  Private schools, on the other hand, are not required to accept vouchers, especially when they are going to pay only a fraction of the cost of tuition.

You glossed over the big difference.  As I understand the food stamp program, the stores don't have to sell milk at a lower price to food stamp users than they do to cash customers.  They still get full price for their product.  So of course they can be required to accept food stamps (though only for the product they have, of course.) 



Actually that depends on which state food stamp program. In some states bread, milk, and meat are automatically discounted for food stamp buyers. How it works is the EDBT (that's what it's called in VA) card is scanned. The items get rung up. Items are discounted, items totaled. Then card scanned and pays for it's set amount of food and qualified items, both discounted and not. Then the user pays with cash everything not covered.

 

It got changed 5 years ago to speed up the process. They used to have to ring up covered items separate and then everything else. And being in line behind a woman who'd bought more than 8 gals of milk that month guaranteed you'd be there 30 more mins if you didn't change lines. Cause they'd have to call for approval. 

 

But hey in VA tax is different per county. Especially on food items, medicine. You should see the hold up that causes.

 

 

 

Message Edited by TiggerBear on 05-20-2009 05:34 PM
Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: Vouchers.

[ Edited ]

I am surprised to see that you still have a vouchers.  This system was discredited here many years ago because it identifies recipients, which is considered very demeaning to poor people and their children.   It reminds me of the Victorian system of giving the labourers who built the railways vouchers to shop at the company shops, which in effect meant that the labourers gave their wages back to the company. Can vouchers be spent anywhwere or do only certain shops benefit?   

 

 


TiggerBear wrote:

Everyman wrote:

Vouchers:  Your food stamp analogy assumes (there we go again) that private schools will necessarily accept voucher students.  Most grocery stores are required to accept food stamps, but are not required to give a great discount on product for food stamp customers.  Private schools, on the other hand, are not required to accept vouchers, especially when they are going to pay only a fraction of the cost of tuition.

You glossed over the big difference.  As I understand the food stamp program, the stores don't have to sell milk at a lower price to food stamp users than they do to cash customers.  They still get full price for their product.  So of course they can be required to accept food stamps (though only for the product they have, of course.) 



Actually that depends on which state food stamp program. In some states bread, milk, and meat are automatically discounted for food stamp buyers. How it works is the EDBT (that's what it's called in VA) card is scanned. The items get rung up. Items are discounted, items totaled. Then card scanned and pays for it's set amount of food and qualified items, both discounted and not. Then the user pays with cash everything not covered.

 

It got changed 5 years ago to speed up the process. They used to have to ring up covered items separate and then everything else. And being in line behind a woman who'd bought more than 8 gals of milk that month guaranteed you'd be there 30 more mins if you didn't change lines. Cause they'd have to call for approval. 

 

But hey in VA tax is different per county. Especially on food items, medicine. You should see the hold up that causes.

 

 

 

Message Edited by Choisya on 05-21-2009 03:05 AM
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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: Pigs are generous.



Frank Greve, McClatchy Newspapers writes that America's Poor Are Its Most Generous Givers : "When Jody Richards saw a homeless man begging outside a downtown McDonald's recently, he bought the man a cheeseburger. There's nothing unusual about that, except that Richards is homeless, too, and the 99-cent cheeseburger was an outsized chunk of the $9.50 he'd earned that day from panhandling."

 

Surveys show this to be the same in the UK, perhaps the world over.  I know that amongst the Indian poor (the really poor) there is a very sophisticated system of support. 

Distinguished Bibliophile
TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: Vouchers.


Choisya wrote:

I am surprised to see that you still have a vouchers.  This system was discredited here many years ago because it identifies recipients, which is considered very demeaning to poor people and their children.   It reminds me of the Victorian system of giving the labourers who built the railways vouchers to shop at the company shops, which in effect meant that the labourers gave their wages back to the company. Can vouchers be spent anywhwere or do only certain shops benefit?   

 

 


TiggerBear wrote:

Everyman wrote:

Vouchers:  Your food stamp analogy assumes (there we go again) that private schools will necessarily accept voucher students.  Most grocery stores are required to accept food stamps, but are not required to give a great discount on product for food stamp customers.  Private schools, on the other hand, are not required to accept vouchers, especially when they are going to pay only a fraction of the cost of tuition.

You glossed over the big difference.  As I understand the food stamp program, the stores don't have to sell milk at a lower price to food stamp users than they do to cash customers.  They still get full price for their product.  So of course they can be required to accept food stamps (though only for the product they have, of course.) 



Actually that depends on which state food stamp program. In some states bread, milk, and meat are automatically discounted for food stamp buyers. How it works is the EDBT (that's what it's called in VA) card is scanned. The items get rung up. Items are discounted, items totaled. Then card scanned and pays for it's set amount of food and qualified items, both discounted and not. Then the user pays with cash everything not covered.

 

It got changed 5 years ago to speed up the process. They used to have to ring up covered items separate and then everything else. And being in line behind a woman who'd bought more than 8 gals of milk that month guaranteed you'd be there 30 more mins if you didn't change lines. Cause they'd have to call for approval. 

 

But hey in VA tax is different per county. Especially on food items, medicine. You should see the hold up that causes.

 

 

 

Message Edited by Choisya on 05-21-2009 03:05 AM

Some states use tear out books. VA uses a swipe card, looks just like a credit card. Only stores that list their acceptance of them on the outer doorway have to accept them. A store has to prove it provides a certain amount of product and will service enough users to get state permission. But if a store doesn't want to deal with it they don't.

 

A more demeaning process is going down to the Government surplus office for free food. Now that's embarrassing. Even fights break out there.

 

To be honest, a certain amount of pride is required to exist poor. The welfare office. The foodstamp system. Social services. American style free clinics. The health department. Any layaway setup. All of it requires extensive time and the ability to repeat your data monotonously in crowded infrequently cleaned waiting areas. Some without seats. 

 

Americans next time a 4 hour wait at the DMV gets you down. Think about all the women who have to do that 3 or more days a week, with small kids in tow.

 

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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: Being poor.

Thankyou TB.  The credit card sounds OK but the other methods sound very demeaning and of course stores who get 'state permission' will profit from this, just as Victorian employers used to do.  They may also stock inferior goods, as Victorian employers used to do.  We have no such systems here because people get their benefits paid into their bank accounts or by cheque, or from tax deductions at source.  The only people who have vouchers are asylum seekers who are here temporarily and I am not sure why that is, perhaps to keep a check on their whereabouts.  When I have seen them struggling to pay at the supermarket checkout, I make up their vouchers or pay for their goods, remembering the time when I struggled.

 

My heart goes out to the women you describe because I know all about being poor and existing on benefits:  I was left homeless with 4 children under the age of 7 when I was younger and very ill with depression, for which I was hospitalised.  My children were taken into care for three years and when I came out of hospital, still under treatment, I found it hard to get a decent full time job for awhile and had to exist on benefits. (My parents were 'shamed' by my mental illness and divorce and would not help:smileysad:.)  The amount of time and mental effort it took to claim benefits was exhausting.  I remember coming round from an anaesthetic after having my hysterectomy and having a pile of forms to deal with.  Benefits were then paid by cheque and several times I was left without money because the postal system failed me. However, although it does dent your pride and self-worth, there isn't such a stigma about it here because benefits are paid directly to you and no one need know that you are a recipient.  There is certainly no queuing for anything unless you live in an area of high unemployment and go to the unemployment office to see what jobs are available.  Casual work, in particular, is registered by employers at the unemployment office because it saves them advertising. There you might queue to see an advisor if you see a job on the boards which interests you.  Many offices nowadays are quite pleasant, with places to sit and have coffee and chat.  A lot is done to try and ease the problems of the unemployed, particularly the long term 'unemployable' but there are also systems in place to encourage them back to work and penalties if you do not take advantage of these.  My younger son runs a charitable training agency and devotes his time to getting people back to work and for this they receive training grants from the government, which have lately been increased to ease the effects of the recession.    

 

And of course, health care here is free to everyone, no matter how poor you are although if you live in a very poor area where the demand for certain types of treatment is great (like maternity care), there may be longer waiting lists or more crowded A&E departments.  Theoretically you can asked to be treated in another town, in mainland Europe even, but of course the poor are much less likely to take advantage of this.  The next time I am hospitalised I have a fancy to ask to be treated on the French Riviera! 

 

 

 

 

 

TiggerBear wrote:

Some states use tear out books. VA uses a swipe card, looks just like a credit card. Only stores that list their acceptance of them on the outer doorway have to accept them. A store has to prove it provides a certain amount of product and will service enough users to get state permission. But if a store doesn't want to deal with it they don't.

 

A more demeaning process is going down to the Government surplus office for free food. Now that's embarrassing. Even fights break out there.

 

To be honest, a certain amount of pride is required to exist poor. The welfare office. The foodstamp system. Social services. American style free clinics. The health department. Any layaway setup. All of it requires extensive time and the ability to repeat your data monotonously in crowded infrequently cleaned waiting areas. Some without seats. 

 

Americans next time a 4 hour wait at the DMV gets you down. Think about all the women who have to do that 3 or more days a week, with small kids in tow.

 


 

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L_Monty
Posts: 900
Registered: ‎12-30-2008
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Re: Being poor.


Choisya wrote:
The credit card sounds OK but the other methods sound very demeaning and of course stores who get 'state permission' will profit from this, just as Victorian employers used to do.  They may also stock inferior goods, as Victorian employers used to do.

RedMenace should (and probably can) correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I think this worry of yours really is just a hangover from Victorian era Company Stores — or maybe Labour propaganda about the ills of American labor policy. While any system is sure to have outlying instances of abuse, I've not heard of poor people being compelled to purchase shoddy products from any kind of closed-loop supply system. (They certainly have the opportunity to buy bad products, but that ensues from being a bad consumer, not an enslaved one.) The debit-card arrangement seems to predominate these days, and while not every store honors them, those that do aren't predatory.

That said, I do remember a while back that Wal-Mart floated the idea of paying employees below minimum wage in exchange for deeper in-store discounts, with the aim of getting employees to make their purchases exclusively from Wal-Mart, and that idea got absolutely and indignantly blasted in public debate precisely for echoing those exploitive 19th century closed-loop Company Store systems.
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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: Being poor.

Not Labour propaganda Monty:smileyhappy:, just my own worries based on history.  The poor are easily exploited everywhere, as we all know, and TB has outlined some of the problems they face.  I am pleased to hear the Walmart idea got blasted but I still do not like the demeaning nature of the voucher system. 

 

 


L_Monty wrote:

Choisya wrote:
The credit card sounds OK but the other methods sound very demeaning and of course stores who get 'state permission' will profit from this, just as Victorian employers used to do.  They may also stock inferior goods, as Victorian employers used to do.

RedMenace should (and probably can) correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I think this worry of yours really is just a hangover from Victorian era Company Stores — or maybe Labour propaganda about the ills of American labor policy. While any system is sure to have outlying instances of abuse, I've not heard of poor people being compelled to purchase shoddy products from any kind of closed-loop supply system. (They certainly have the opportunity to buy bad products, but that ensues from being a bad consumer, not an enslaved one.) The debit-card arrangement seems to predominate these days, and while not every store honors them, those that do aren't predatory.

That said, I do remember a while back that Wal-Mart floated the idea of paying employees below minimum wage in exchange for deeper in-store discounts, with the aim of getting employees to make their purchases exclusively from Wal-Mart, and that idea got absolutely and indignantly blasted in public debate precisely for echoing those exploitive 19th century closed-loop Company Store systems.

 

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TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: Being poor.


L_Monty wrote:

Choisya wrote:
The credit card sounds OK but the other methods sound very demeaning and of course stores who get 'state permission' will profit from this, just as Victorian employers used to do.  They may also stock inferior goods, as Victorian employers used to do.

RedMenace should (and probably can) correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I think this worry of yours really is just a hangover from Victorian era Company Stores — or maybe Labour propaganda about the ills of American labor policy. While any system is sure to have outlying instances of abuse, I've not heard of poor people being compelled to purchase shoddy products from any kind of closed-loop supply system. (They certainly have the opportunity to buy bad products, but that ensues from being a bad consumer, not an enslaved one.) The debit-card arrangement seems to predominate these days, and while not every store honors them, those that do aren't predatory.



Those are regular stores, not substandard supliers. So worry not, they shop with the rest of us.

 

For our British friend, American prepackaged food goes like this price and quality wise

 

Ultra reserved high quality (it really isn't, it's just priced for status buyers)

Reserved high quality (a slight bump in price, for exclusivity)

High quality (it is, and the price reflects for the most per the labor)

Imported name brand (this can sub name brand in quality, depends what country it's from)

Premium name brand (a little more plush)

Name brand

In store generic (same or close to name brand, without the label)

Lesser brands (quality varries, its a mix of small companies and knock off specialists)

Budget brands (lesser quality, think a 50% down grade from name brand)

Lesser budget brands (I wou'ldn't feed this stuff to a dog)

 

Makes a box of crackers or a bottle of ketcup pretty interesting sometimes. 

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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: Being poor.

Thanks TB - they may shop with the rest of you but if they are using vouchers they can be identified as 'poor', which is very demeaning and particularly bad for children, so I hope credit cards soon become universal. 

 

Are there regulatory bodies which oversee the quality of food, like organic food, free range etc?  We have quite a few over here so that if you shop at a high quality store you can be sure the quality is good and suppliers are often named, so that you can check them out yourself.  One of the things that the good stores are now doing is buying produce locally, naming the farms etc., so as to cut down their carbon footprint.  This is tending to end the nonsense whereby we send strawberries all the way to Spain and they send strawberries to us, for instance.  Ditto the cruelty of transporting live animals back and forth across the continent.

 

In our 'nanny society':smileyhappy: there are plenty of official and unofficial watchdogs and a quality store which supplied shoddy goods of any kind would be quickly named and shamed. There are regulators for the lower priced stores but naturally you cannot expect the same quality.  The European Union places a lot of emphasis on food regulation overall, sometimes going to extremes.    

 

 

 


TiggerBear wrote:

 


L_Monty wrote:

Choisya wrote:
The credit card sounds OK but the other methods sound very demeaning and of course stores who get 'state permission' will profit from this, just as Victorian employers used to do.  They may also stock inferior goods, as Victorian employers used to do.

RedMenace should (and probably can) correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I think this worry of yours really is just a hangover from Victorian era Company Stores — or maybe Labour propaganda about the ills of American labor policy. While any system is sure to have outlying instances of abuse, I've not heard of poor people being compelled to purchase shoddy products from any kind of closed-loop supply system. (They certainly have the opportunity to buy bad products, but that ensues from being a bad consumer, not an enslaved one.) The debit-card arrangement seems to predominate these days, and while not every store honors them, those that do aren't predatory.



Those are regular stores, not substandard supliers. So worry not, they shop with the rest of us.

 

For our British friend, American prepackaged food goes like this price and quality wise

 

Ultra reserved high quality (it really isn't, it's just priced for status buyers)

Reserved high quality (a slight bump in price, for exclusivity)

High quality (it is, and the price reflects for the most per the labor)

Imported name brand (this can sub name brand in quality, depends what country it's from)

Premium name brand (a little more plush)

Name brand

In store generic (same or close to name brand, without the label)

Lesser brands (quality varries, its a mix of small companies and knock off specialists)

Budget brands (lesser quality, think a 50% down grade from name brand)

Lesser budget brands (I wou'ldn't feed this stuff to a dog)

 

Makes a box of crackers or a bottle of ketcup pretty interesting sometimes. 


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gegarland
Posts: 191
Registered: ‎01-27-2008
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Re: Being poor.


Choisya wrote:

 

Are there regulatory bodies which oversee the quality of food, like organic food, free range etc? 


If you are on assistance here you generally don't have a choice of buying such high-priced specialty goods like organicly grown foods and name brands. You _could_, but then your money won't last the entire month.

 

Alive, occupying space, and exerting gravitational force
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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: Being poor.

[ Edited ]

No, I realise that, it is the same here except that we are more highly regulated overall. Poor folks have to go for the cheapest not the best.  I was just asking generally what the regulations were.   

 

 


gegarland wrote:

Choisya wrote:

 

Are there regulatory bodies which oversee the quality of food, like organic food, free range etc? 


If you are on assistance here you generally don't have a choice of buying such high-priced specialty goods like organicly grown foods and name brands. You _could_, but then your money won't last the entire month.

 


 

Message Edited by Choisya on 05-22-2009 02:01 PM
Distinguished Bibliophile
TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: Being poor.


Choisya wrote:

No, I realise that, it is the same here except that we are more highly regulated overall. Poor folks have to go for the cheapest not the best.  I was just asking generally what the regulations were.   

 

 


gegarland wrote:

Choisya wrote:

 

Are there regulatory bodies which oversee the quality of food, like organic food, free range etc? 


If you are on assistance here you generally don't have a choice of buying such high-priced specialty goods like organicly grown foods and name brands. You _could_, but then your money won't last the entire month.

 


 

Message Edited by Choisya on 05-22-2009 02:01 PM

Well there's organic and US certified organic. Organic is likely to be organic, but may have just switched over this year. US certified organic has been organic 7 years and has been inspected yearly to recieve certification.

 

Just putting organic on a label doesn't inflict infringement if they are caught rule breaking. Perhaps some bad press though. US certified you get caught, you lose certification and any ability to ever get future certification, and are fined. There is some gray area if the rule was caused by a neihboring farms actions. In those cases they can get reinstated after 2 years quarterly inspections.

 

Organic (now this does depend on what area of the country your in, I'm listing my neck of the woods) has a 5 to 15% price boost. US certified a 10 to 30% boost. It has come down as more farms are reaching certification age. It used to be a 60% mark up across the board.

 

But all this is grocery store, at a farmers market. It all whether you believe the farmer. Though last month I did have a guy I get strawberries and grapes from every year run over and show me his certification certificate. He was proud.

Distinguished Bibliophile
TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: Being poor.


Choisya wrote:

Thanks TB - they may shop with the rest of you but if they are using vouchers they can be identified as 'poor', which is very demeaning and particularly bad for children, so I hope credit cards soon become universal. 



Well it may be a southern thing. But I'm not aware of any shame nowadays for food stamps. They have rather lost their stigma. Trust me, go to a walmart on the first 3 days of a month when everyone gets their new card. You won't see any shame. A lot of smiles, far too many frozen dinners, and an extremely crowded store; that you'll see.

 

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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: Being poor.

If the majority of people in an area have food stamps/vouchers then there may be more solidarity about it but, as you posted earlier, 'poor people have to show a certain amount of pride to exist poor.'   The other problem is the lack of take up of stamps/vouchers which happens with such schemes.  This article suggests that there is only 70% take-up in the Washington area and that there is still a stigma, even where debit cards are used. 

 

 


TiggerBear wrote:

Choisya wrote:

Thanks TB - they may shop with the rest of you but if they are using vouchers they can be identified as 'poor', which is very demeaning and particularly bad for children, so I hope credit cards soon become universal. 



Well it may be a southern thing. But I'm not aware of any shame nowadays for food stamps. They have rather lost their stigma. Trust me, go to a walmart on the first 3 days of a month when everyone gets their new card. You won't see any shame. A lot of smiles, far too many frozen dinners, and an extremely crowded store; that you'll see.

 


 

Distinguished Bibliophile
TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: Being poor.


Choisya wrote:

If the majority of people in an area have food stamps/vouchers then there may be more solidarity about it but, as you posted earlier, 'poor people have to show a certain amount of pride to exist poor.'   The other problem is the lack of take up of stamps/vouchers which happens with such schemes.  This article suggests that there is only 70% take-up in the Washington area and that there is still a stigma, even where debit cards are used. 

 

 


TiggerBear wrote:

Choisya wrote:

Thanks TB - they may shop with the rest of you but if they are using vouchers they can be identified as 'poor', which is very demeaning and particularly bad for children, so I hope credit cards soon become universal. 



Well it may be a southern thing. But I'm not aware of any shame nowadays for food stamps. They have rather lost their stigma. Trust me, go to a walmart on the first 3 days of a month when everyone gets their new card. You won't see any shame. A lot of smiles, far too many frozen dinners, and an extremely crowded store; that you'll see.

 


 


Well since Washington is the other side of the country, I really couldn't tell you.

 

From my knowledge in VA and NC and SC. When one signs up for food stamps, you get that day as they go over your paperwork with you, a supplemental tear off book.  This is on the assumption of getting your card the following month. If there is a paperwork hold up, for up to 6 months they hand you a supplemental book, but you do have to go in and get it. The majority only use 1 supplemental book. The is also an emergency supplemental book. That gets given to you if say your house burns down and other circumstances. If you qualify for foodstamps they are not hard to get, and they haven't run out since the Regan area (side note why I have childhood memories of government food). But do remember, food stamps are a state to state thing.

 

For example in VA and only VA anyone eligible for foodstamps can request an emergency cell phone. It's a new program less than 2 years old. The only bad thing I've heard is there's up to a 2 month wait. Someone in state government found the money for 20,000+ free 50 min a month phones a year, and the bureaucracy workers too. There's just that much excess available.