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Distinguished Bibliophile
dulcinea3
Posts: 4,389
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"


chad wrote:

German and other romance languages still designate words as masculine, feminine or neuter. English uses the same article for everything. But if I counted up all the words in a particular language that might be masculine, feminine or neuter, could I make an assesment about how the culture views the language? So is language a woman or a man or neither? It really is an interesting novel and subject...


German does that, but the Romance languages (which are unrelated to German; they are offshoots of Latin) do not.  Romance languages use two genders: masculine and feminine.

 

As for the etymology of the n-word, Tigger may be correct about Nigeria, but I had always thought that it was derived from the race designation of Negro or Negroid.  Which in turn derives from the Latin word for black, niger (negro is the Spanish form).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grand Dame of the Land of Oz, Duchess of Fantasia, in the Kingdom of Wordsmithonia; also, Poet Laureate of the Kingdom of Wordsmithonia
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TiggerBear
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

 


dulcinea3 wrote:

chad wrote:

German and other romance languages still designate words as masculine, feminine or neuter. English uses the same article for everything. But if I counted up all the words in a particular language that might be masculine, feminine or neuter, could I make an assesment about how the culture views the language? So is language a woman or a man or neither? It really is an interesting novel and subject...


German does that, but the Romance languages (which are unrelated to German; they are offshoots of Latin) do not.  Romance languages use two genders: masculine and feminine.

 

As for the etymology of the n-word, Tigger may be correct about Nigeria, but I had always thought that it was derived from the race designation of Negro or Negroid.  Which in turn derives from the Latin word for black, niger (negro is the Spanish form).


Hmm well with 2 countries both Niger and Nigeria...  (shrug) It not uncommon for a southerner even in this day and age to get the inhabitant name for other counties wrong. You should hear the average person try to get the inhabitant name for most of eastern Europe wrong. And I heard the oddest mix up once when a dude tried to figure out what someone from Myanmar was called.

 

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008

Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

 


chad wrote:

"Well I think the time the n-word doesn't bother anyone, when it means nothing really just a history lessen. That's the point that word will be dropped from our live language. So long as it's still a nasty thing to say, you can't remove it really."

 

It obviously meant more than a history lesson to some people. Meanings of words change through time, and I can look a word up in the dictionary and get several meanings of the word as the word changed through time (i;e; conventional and non-conventional uses).

 

I think Mark Twain wanted us to see language as sometimes not only incriminating (i.e. miranda rights- anything you say can and will be used against you), but also a "criminal" or not only carthartic (i.e. I just have to get this off my chest) but also a "saint." If language is alive, then maybe it has a personality. German and other romance languages still designate words as masculine, feminine or neuter. English uses the same article for everything. But if I counted up all the words in a particular language that might be masculine, feminine or neuter, could I make an assesment about how the culture views the language? So is language a woman or a man or neither? It really is an interesting novel and subject...

 

 

Chad

 

PS- Another great example is the Latin language- the language of the Romans. Well, I guess the question is if the Latin language is still alive. I think it's considered to be a "dead" language- that is, not spoken. Another interesting question is whether the language itself was responsible for the fall of Rome. I'm reading a book now "Wuthering Heights" by Emily Bronte, who writes about how the same forces of Nature that build  "heights" are the same forces which can weather and destroy. The latin language could have been responsible for both the construction and destruction of Rome


 

As to your PS

 

Whoah that is a big seperate discussion. The fall of the Roman empire cause wasn't loss of language use. But if you really want to talk about the causes, let me know.

RTA
Wordsmith
RTA
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Registered: ‎08-19-2008
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

[ Edited ]

 


TiggerBear wrote:

 

A confusion of what to call people from the country Niger. Most people thought all the slaves came from Niger. That's where the N-word came from.

 


 

I’m curious, are you even aware that you totally just make this shit up instead of actually knowing anything.  The vast majority of U.S. slaves, in actuality, came from western coastal countries.  Niger is landlocked. 

 

The etymology for **bleep** is the Latin word niger, which means black, with influences from French (negre) and Spanish (negro), both also meaning black.  An intellectually responsible person knows things before speaking about them.  She doesn’t just make total bullshit up based on the random wanderings that traipse through incurious minds.

 

BTW, watching you and chad try to have a substantive conversation is like watching whipped cream trying to mold meringue.

 

 

EDIT

 

I literally can't believe it bleeped out the word **bleep**.  I assume you all know what I wrote there.

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chad
Posts: 1,477
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

[ Edited ]

"BTW, watching you and chad try to have a substantive conversation is like watching whipped cream trying to mold meringue."

 

Yeah, and there's an art to whipping both.:smileyvery-happy:

 

The etymology for **bleep** is the Latin word niger, which means black, with influences from French (negre) and Spanish (negro), both also meaning black. 

 

"An intellectually responsible person knows things before speaking about them"- like the above statement that's not substantiated....

 

Chad

 

PS- Well, welcome RTA to the board of the academically challenged, some now believe that **bleep** can be used in "academic" settings only....

 

 

 

 

RTA
Wordsmith
RTA
Posts: 920
Registered: ‎08-19-2008

Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

[ Edited ]

 


chad wrote:

 

Yeah, and there's an art to whipping both.:smileyvery-happy: 


 

The point being, regardless of how you whip air what you’re left with is still lacking both form and substance.

 

 


chad wrote:

 

"An intellectually responsible person knows things before speaking about them"- like the above statement that's not substantiated....

 


 

Ahahahaha…you can find it in any English etymology text or any good dictionary that incorporates basic etymology.  **bleep** has a pretty simple etymological history – you know, if a person cares to open a dictionary or even do a basic Google search before saying absurd and ignorant things like the use of **bleep** was born from confusion that most slaves came from Niger and people were mispronouncing the name of the country.  My reference came from the Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology   (Oxford University Press, 1993)

 

BTW, some of the baseless tripe you’ve written on this board, I’m amused to find you a stickler for citations. I stopped bothering to cite among this group quite a while ago, when I learned that most of the contributors prefer to invent just about every “fact” on which they base their erroneous conclusions.  Fiction and fantasy are favored over reality and research here at B&N CE.  It’s like talking about the real world at Hogwarts, which is why I find it so thoroughly entertaining.  But thanks for the interest in my cite, it’s refreshing. 

 

I’m wondering, though, were you not curious about TiggerBear’s reference for her ludicrous claim?  Or did you just accept her nonsense as a necessary ingredient to create your amorphous concoction of whipped air?

 

EDIT

 

LMAO, it even bleeps out the link.  You can just type the word in yourself, if you link to those two references, and see that it appears in both.  And neither reference mentions the term entering the English language in the ridiculous way TiggerBear claims it did.

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chad
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

[ Edited ]

Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm.....It looks like it could be confused with a S&M manual. I'm looking for the "precise" dictionary and not the "concise" dictionary of English Etymology, Dominatrix.

 

 

Chad

 

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BookReader75
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Registered: ‎02-12-2011
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

You know Huckleberry Finn is a great book, and was the book that introduced me to the N-word.

Now I think we can all agree the N-word is NOT a good word, but a horrible degrating word to be called by.  But I that does not mean I think we should change the book and remove the word.

I am NOT racist, and as far as I am aware neither is Mark Twain, when he did use the word, he was pretty much stating history, as that was what they were called at the time,  So he is just stating the language of THAT time period, that was the PAST and it WAS history.  And that was the way the book was written.  So NO I do not agree that we should have the removal of the N-word.  Now some may say that if younger children are reading it, and they are using that word, it is not good.  But the parent can have that talk with the child, and will decide if the book is appropriate or not for their child to be reading.  So yes, the N-word, is a horrific word, but no one was being racist it was just the language of the PAST and that IS history.

~Tristan Amaya
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chad
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

You never heard the N-word before you read the book?

 

Chad

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A-Nuccio
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎02-25-2011
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

I personally find this as censorship as well.  If you remove the ""n-word" from Huckleberry Finn, you lose the time period and the feel of the book.  Then again, we need to be "politically correct".

There sandy seems the golden sky
And golden seems the sandy plain.
No habitation meets the eye
Unless in the horizon rim,
Some halfway up the limestone wall,
That spot of black is not a stain
Or shadow, but a cavern hole,
Where someone used to climb and crawl
To rest from his besetting fears.
I see the callus on his soul
The disappearing last of him
And of his race starvation slim,
Oh years ago - ten thousand years.

-Robert Frost
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Leggo
Posts: 3
Registered: ‎02-26-2011
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

Well, yes you lose the time period in which it was written, but even in books written today, the word is used to describe the era.  Below is an excerpt from THE SEEDS WE SOW, KINDNESS THAT FED A HUNGRY WORLD which was released in December 2010.  The George referenced is George Washington Carver.

 

His first day on campus a group of students chanted “**bleep**” at
the sight of George making his way to class. By the end of the day he was
tattered emotionally and physically. Though not initially welcomed by
fellow students, Professor Budd and Professor James (Tama Jim) Wilson
made up a room for George in an offi ce space on campus. Years later George
recalled Professor Wilson and his helping hand in this way, “The name of
Hon. James Wilson is sacred to me. He was one of the finest teachers that
it has ever been my privilege to listen to. . . . Being a colored boy, and the
crowded condition of the school, made it rather embarrassing for some, and
it made the questions of a room rather puzzling. Prof. Wilson said, as soon
as he heard it, ‘Send him to me, I have a room,’ and he gave me his office and
was very happy in doing so.”

 

So, I suppose the question is, should an author be expected to change an historical fact because that fact now offends our sensibilities?

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TiggerBear
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

 


A-Nuccio wrote:

I personally find this as censorship as well.  If you remove the ""n-word" from Huckleberry Finn, you lose the time period and the feel of the book.  Then again, we need to be "politically correct".


 

Not so sure of that. Since that goes over the top too far more often than not. How about we need to be publicly polite.

 

 

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BookReader75
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

 


chad wrote:

You never heard the N-word before you read the book?

 

Chad


 

Well is that bad, might as well refrain from knowing bad words as long as I can eh?

And I read the book when I was like... 9 or 8 years old lol!

~Tristan Amaya
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BookReader75
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Registered: ‎02-12-2011
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

 


TiggerBear wrote:

 


A-Nuccio wrote:

I personally find this as censorship as well.  If you remove the ""n-word" from Huckleberry Finn, you lose the time period and the feel of the book.  Then again, we need to be "politically correct".


 

Not so sure of that. Since that goes over the top too far more often than not. How about we need to be publicly polite.

 

 


 

Took the words right out of my mouth, Tiggerbear!

~Tristan Amaya
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chad
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

[ Edited ]

BookReader75 wrote:

 


chad wrote:

You never heard the N-word before you read the book?

 

Chad


 

Well is that bad, might as well refrain from knowing bad words as long as I can eh?

And I read the book when I was like... 9 or 8 years old lol!


When you were nine, or I think I was around 13 when I read it the first time, did you feel that the culture depicted in "Huck Finn" was somehow less sophisticated? That is, somehow society "grew up" from the society depicted in "Huck Finn" anyway. So, the reader, young or old, could somehow excuse the use, or the overuse, of the N-word when its placed in a temporal, and a cultural context, like we find in "Huckleberry Finn." But somehow we have taken the N-word out of its culture, and out of its time, and gave the word a new negative meaning. So society somehow "grew up" in one way, but maybe stayed the same, or changed negatively in another? What do you think?  

 

Chad

 

PS- The above is why "Huck Finn" for every man, woman and child for all time, I think....

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TiggerBear
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

 


chad wrote:

BookReader75 wrote:

 


chad wrote:

You never heard the N-word before you read the book?

 

Chad


 

Well is that bad, might as well refrain from knowing bad words as long as I can eh?

And I read the book when I was like... 9 or 8 years old lol!


When you were nine, or I think I was around 13 when I read it the first time, did you feel that the culture depicted in "Huck Finn" was somehow less sophisticated? That is, somehow society "grew up" from the society depicted in "Huck Finn" anyway. So, the reader, young or old, could somehow excuse the use, or the overuse, of the N-word when its placed in a temporal, and a cultural context, like we find in "Huckleberry Finn." But somehow we have taken the N-word out of its culture, and out of its time, and gave the word a new negative meaning. So society somehow "grew up" in one way, but maybe stayed the same, or changed negatively in another? What do you think?  

 

Chad

 

PS- The above is why "Huck Finn" for every man, woman and child for all time, I think....


8 and what I remember is it sparked a big argument on slavery and farm labor in general. Wrote a book report spin on what Americans will tolerate for a cheep shirt, that year.

 

 

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BookReader75
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Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

I agree, with you Chad well said.  I think that now in this time it has a worse meaning than in that time in history.  In that time it was just casual language at that time.  So yes, you put it very well Chad

~Tristan Amaya
RTA
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RTA
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

 


TiggerBear wrote:
 Wrote a book report spin on what Americans will tolerate for a cheep shirt, that year.

 


Or what Americans will tolerate to buy cheap crap from Walmart.  

 

BTW, TiggerBear, did you find any citations for your radical claim that the term **bleep** derives from a mispronunciation of Niger?  Or are you now willing to admit that you made that up from the nothingness on which you so often rely for your information?

 

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TiggerBear
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

 


RTA wrote:

 


TiggerBear wrote:
 Wrote a book report spin on what Americans will tolerate for a cheep shirt, that year.

 


Or what Americans will tolerate to buy cheap crap from Walmart.  

 

BTW, TiggerBear, did you find any citations for your radical claim that the term **bleep** derives from a mispronunciation of Niger?  Or are you now willing to admit that you made that up from the nothingness on which you so often rely for your information?

 


Why is it you always need written citations? Conversations and the relation of previous verbal discussions don't have them. I don't ask for the lecture notes of every lecture I've attended either.

 

 

I'm not the only person on here that relates personal experiences. Yet time and again you insist I produce written documentation for them.

 

This isn't a term paper, nor is a doctoral thesis. And it certainly isn't a profesional publication. Beyond those purposes citations are not needed. Quit asking for them.

 

Try asking "Where did you read this? I'd like to read it myself." or "Was this a personal experience?"

 

For once be constructive to a discussion. Rather than you typical confrontational deconstructive insulting behavior.

 

 

 

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carusmm
Posts: 361
Registered: ‎03-28-2011
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Re: Huckleberry Finn: Removal of the "N-Word"

Racism is rampant in America and here in Australia don't forget because Twain never did