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Inspired Bibliophile
thewanderingjew
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP

[ Edited ]

 

Question:  In what year do you think this was written and which party's principles do you think it is expressing? 

 

Preamble

The conditions which surround us best justify our co-operation; we meet in the midst of a nation brought to the verge of moral, political, and material ruin. Corruption dominates the ballot-box, the Legislatures, the Congress, and touches even the ermine of the bench. The people are demoralized; most of the States have been compelled to isolate the voters at the polling places to prevent universal intimidation and bribery. The newspapers are largely subsidized or muzzled, public opinion silenced, business prostrated, homes covered with mortgages, labor impoverished, and the land concentrating in the hands of capitalists. The urban workmen are denied the right to organize for self-protection; imported pauperized labor beats down their wages, a hireling standing army, unrecognized by our laws, is established to shoot them down, and they are rapidly degenerating into European conditions. The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few, unprecedented in the history of mankind; and the possessors of these, in turn despise the Republic and endanger liberty. From the same prolific womb of governmental injustice we breed the two great classes—tramps and millionaires.

The national power to create money is appropriated to enrich bond-holders; a vast public debt payable in legal tender currency has been funded into gold-bearing bonds, thereby adding millions to the burdens of the people.

 

 


chad wrote:

Hi Psychee and thanks for the website.....some of the other minor parties must have more than what is listed on the site? It might be interesting to take a look at the platforms or the preambles of platforms through time. When I was talking to the wanderingjew, I was asking about anything that remained unchanged about our political parties since their inception, other than the party names. As he mentioned, the democratic and republican parties split from the Democratic-Republican party in the 1800's - from the revered Wikipedia. My point was that our political parties now have a life of their own- purposeful lives, however. But they seem to be just opposing parties which use polls to try to figure out which side they're on. Would democracy be better served with other political parties? Our politics always seemed to need some new life in them. Again, I'm not sure about the new Tea Party- I think "Alice in Wonderland" is soon to be released?  

 

Chad

 

 


 

 

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thewanderingjew
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP

[ Edited ]

 

Ryan, the other party accused the tea partiers of being terrorists, among other things. There are plenty of Democrats with horrible values and principles, as well.
False, ugly accusations do not belong to one party or another. One party does not own "goodness" or righteousness. People have to be good and/or righteous within themselves and should have the courage to stand up for their own values regardless of whether or not their own political party stands with them.
When I spoke of my feelings and the feelings of the people I know, it was simply that, an expression of the way I live and the friends I choose. It was an expression from my heart about how I feel about your rights and the rights of others in minority groups. When I hear people make ugly remarks, I speak out whenever and wherever possible. All minorities deserve a voice although I don't hear that principle coming from the liberal side of the aisle, lately.
Anyway, I do not believe we should brand all of the people of any party with one broad brush or ridicule those with opposing ideas or silence the voice of any minority by denying them either free speech or equal rights or any civil liberties that we all expect, for that matter.

Ryan_G wrote:

TWJ,

 

I appreciate your thoughts on this issue but I must say as I did when I first started this thread that while I make not like these poll results, I'm not that surprised by them.  I live in Kansas where those of us who aren't memebers of the GOP are at a distinct disadvantage.  These are views that I hear everyday from customers in the mall, people I know, they are the bumper stickers I read and the opinon line calls in the newspaper.

 

There are plenty Republicains who really do hold these opinoins wether anyone wants to admit to it or not.  You have to remember that this is the same party who accusses anyone of disagreeing with them on the war as being unAmerican or in league with the terrorists.  This is the same party that ran racist ads against Harold Ford Jr. and disgusting ads against Max Cleland attacking his patriotism.

 

I hear this stuff from customers all the time, making fun of Martin Luther King Day evenwhen they had it off, telling racist and homophobic jokes in my store, the funny looks and disparaging remarks when President Obama's name comes up.  I'm not sure what Reps you are friends with but the ones here in Kansas are right with this poll.


 

 

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chad
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP

[ Edited ]

Wanderingjew questioned:

 

Question:  In what year do you think this was written and which party's principles do you think it is expressing? 

 

Preamble

The conditions which surround us best justify our co-operation; we meet in the midst of a nation brought to the verge of moral, political, and material ruin. Corruption dominates the ballot-box, the Legislatures, the Congress, and touches even the ermine of the bench. The people are demoralized; most of the States have been compelled to isolate the voters at the polling places to prevent universal intimidation and bribery. The newspapers are largely subsidized or muzzled, public opinion silenced, business prostrated, homes covered with mortgages, labor impoverished, and the land concentrating in the hands of capitalists. The urban workmen are denied the right to organize for self-protection; imported pauperized labor beats down their wages, a hireling standing army, unrecognized by our laws, is established to shoot them down, and they are rapidly degenerating into European conditions. The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few, unprecedented in the history of mankind; and the possessors of these, in turn despise the Republic and endanger liberty. From the same prolific womb of governmental injustice we breed the two great classes—tramps and millionaires.

The national power to create money is appropriated to enrich bond-holders; a vast public debt payable in legal tender currency has been funded into gold-bearing bonds, thereby adding millions to the burdens of the people.

 

 

 

 

That could have been any party, any time- excepting a few key words that place it in a certain span of time. I don't see principles, however, I'm reading more about a state of affairs in this preamble. 

 

I would rather have seen things like the "tea party movement" throughout my life- not necessarily the "tea party", itself- something that it is reactionary to an econonmic stimulus plan, but just "different" parties. Ross Perot, as you remember, ran for president as an independent candidate, but seemed to lack that political party "luster"- whatever you think that is. But If you think these things stand on principles, more power to you. More parties and specificity in those political party platform preambles might help our opinion poll hullabaloo....

 

Chad  

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thewanderingjew
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP

I actually posted that in order to indicate how similar conditions were then compared to what they are now. That was the preamble to the Populist Party in 1892.

 


chad wrote:

That could have been any party, any time- excepting a few key words that place it in certain span of time. I don't see principles, however, I'm reading more about a state of affairs in this preamble. 

 

I would rather have seen things like the "tea party movement" throughout my life- not necessarily the "tea party", itself- something that it is reactionary to an econonmic stimulus plan, but just "different" parties. Ross Perot, as you remember, ran for president as an independent candidate, but seemed to lack that political party "luster"- whatever you think that is. But If you think these things stand on principles, more power to you. More parties and specificity in those political party platform preambles might help our opinion poll hullabaloo....

 

Chad  


 

 

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thewanderingjew
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP

This was the platform of the Populist Party in 1892. It expresses their principles. This particular populist party didn't last.

Platform

We declare, therefore,

First—That the union of the labor forces of the United States this day consummated shall be permanent and perpetual; may its spirit enter into all hearts for the salvation of the Republic and the uplifting of mankind.

Second—Wealth belongs to him who creates it, and every dollar taken from industry without an equivalent is robbery. "If any will not work, neither shall he eat." The interests of rural and civic labor are the same; their enemies are identical.

Third—We believe that the time has come when the railroad corporations will either own the people or the people must own the railroads, and should the government enter upon the work of owning and managing all railroads, we should favor an amendment to the Constitution by which all persons engaged in the government service shall be placed under a civil service regulation of the most rigid character, so as to prevent the increase of the power of the national administration by the use of such additional government employees.

Finance—We demand a national currency, safe, sound, and flexible, issued by the general government only, a full legal tender for all debts, public and private, and that without the use of banking corporations, a just, equitable and efficient means of distribution direct to the people, at a tax not to exceed 2 per cent per annum, to be provided as set forth by the sub-treasury plan of the Farmers' Alliance, or a better system; also by payments in discharge of its obligations for public improvements.

1. We demand free and unlimited coinage of silver and gold at the present legal ratio of 16 to 1.

2. We demand that the amount of circulating medium be speedily increased to not less than $50 per capita.

3. We demand a graduated income tax.

4. We believe that the money of the country should be kept as much as possible in the hands of the people, and hence we demand that all State and national revenues shall be limited to the necessary expenses of the government, economically and honestly administered.

5. We demand that postal savings banks be established by the government for the safe deposit of the earnings of the people and to facilitate exchange.

Transportation—Transportation being a means of exchange and a public necessity, the government should own and operate the railroads in the interest of the people. The telegraph and telephone, like the post office system, being a necessity for the transmission of news, should be owned and operated by the government in the interest of the people.

Land—The land, including all the natural sources of wealth, is the heritage of the people, and should not be monopolized for speculative purposes, and alien ownership of land should be prohibited. All land now held by railroads and other corporations in excess of their actual needs, and all lands now owned by aliens, should be reclaimed by the government and held for actual settlers only.

chad wrote:

Wanderingjew questioned:

 

Question:  In what year do you think this was written and which party's principles do you think it is expressing? 

 

Preamble

The conditions which surround us best justify our co-operation; we meet in the midst of a nation brought to the verge of moral, political, and material ruin. Corruption dominates the ballot-box, the Legislatures, the Congress, and touches even the ermine of the bench. The people are demoralized; most of the States have been compelled to isolate the voters at the polling places to prevent universal intimidation and bribery. The newspapers are largely subsidized or muzzled, public opinion silenced, business prostrated, homes covered with mortgages, labor impoverished, and the land concentrating in the hands of capitalists. The urban workmen are denied the right to organize for self-protection; imported pauperized labor beats down their wages, a hireling standing army, unrecognized by our laws, is established to shoot them down, and they are rapidly degenerating into European conditions. The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few, unprecedented in the history of mankind; and the possessors of these, in turn despise the Republic and endanger liberty. From the same prolific womb of governmental injustice we breed the two great classes—tramps and millionaires.

The national power to create money is appropriated to enrich bond-holders; a vast public debt payable in legal tender currency has been funded into gold-bearing bonds, thereby adding millions to the burdens of the people.


That could have been any party, any time- excepting a few key words that place it in a certain span of time. I don't see principles, however, I'm reading more about a state of affairs in this preamble. 

 

I would rather have seen things like the "tea party movement" throughout my life- not necessarily the "tea party", itself- something that it is reactionary to an econonmic stimulus plan, but just "different" parties. Ross Perot, as you remember, ran for president as an independent candidate, but seemed to lack that political party "luster"- whatever you think that is. But If you think these things stand on principles, more power to you. More parties and specificity in those political party platform preambles might help our opinion poll hullabaloo....

 

Chad  


 

 

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Peppermill
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP

 


thewanderingjew wrote:

I actually posted that in order to indicate how similar conditions were then compared to what they are now. That was the preamble to the Populist Party in 1892.

 


 

Were conditions really similar, or are we just capable of using the same words to apply to very different situations?

 

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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chad
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP

And I feel a political party that represents a "younger" generation has always been needed- especially in the 1960's, but thanks for the info!

 

Chad  

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chad
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP

[ Edited ]

The wanderingjew posted:

 

This was the platform of the Populist Party in 1892. It expresses their principles. This particular populist party didn't last.

Platform

We declare, therefore,

First—That the union of the labor forces of the United States this day consummated shall be permanent and perpetual; may its spirit enter into all hearts for the salvation of the Republic and the uplifting of mankind.

Second—Wealth belongs to him who creates it, and every dollar taken from industry without an equivalent is robbery. "If any will not work, neither shall he eat." The interests of rural and civic labor are the same; their enemies are identical.

Third—We believe that the time has come when the railroad corporations will either own the people or the people must own the railroads, and should the government enter upon the work of owning and managing all railroads, we should favor an amendment to the Constitution by which all persons engaged in the government service shall be placed under a civil service regulation of the most rigid character, so as to prevent the increase of the power of the national administration by the use of such additional government employees.

Finance—We demand a national currency, safe, sound, and flexible, issued by the general government only, a full legal tender for all debts, public and private, and that without the use of banking corporations, a just, equitable and efficient means of distribution direct to the people, at a tax not to exceed 2 per cent per annum, to be provided as set forth by the sub-treasury plan of the Farmers' Alliance, or a better system; also by payments in discharge of its obligations for public improvements.

1. We demand free and unlimited coinage of silver and gold at the present legal ratio of 16 to 1.

2. We demand that the amount of circulating medium be speedily increased to not less than $50 per capita.

3. We demand a graduated income tax.

4. We believe that the money of the country should be kept as much as possible in the hands of the people, and hence we demand that all State and national revenues shall be limited to the necessary expenses of the government, economically and honestly administered.

5. We demand that postal savings banks be established by the government for the safe deposit of the earnings of the people and to facilitate exchange.

Transportation—Transportation being a means of exchange and a public necessity, the government should own and operate the railroads in the interest of the people. The telegraph and telephone, like the post office system, being a necessity for the transmission of news, should be owned and operated by the government in the interest of the people.

Land—The land, including all the natural sources of wealth, is the heritage of the people, and should not be monopolized for speculative purposes, and alien ownership of land should be prohibited. All land now held by railroads and other corporations in excess of their actual needs, and all lands now owned by aliens, should be reclaimed by the government and held for actual settlers only.

 

And again, thanks for the information. My belief is that the entire country was railroaded prior to the populist party movement. The civil war was won, the west was to be settled by the reforged union. The "vision" of railroads connecting the cities of the world began as early as 1800, but my guess is as early as 1776. There also seems to be concerns over the move from a "gold/silver based" economy to a "paper based" ("unit" economy, but so many trees lose their lives). I'm thinking, "too little, too late":smileysad: by the time the populist party arrived.....

 

Chad

 

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thewanderingjew
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP

Hi Peppermill,

It seems to me that most of the same problems exist today regardless of whether or not the conditions are similar. I don't know anyone who was there then, that is still here now. :smileyhappy:

Chad, if there was more vocal participation, even from younger people who are not usually politically motivated, do you think it would it be received well or ridiculed as the "tea party" has been?
In the 60's there was the silent majority. When the young people morphed into a more proactive group, we had the 1970 Kent State massacre. To me, that was possibly an example of what can occur when there is an overreaction or feeling of extreme distrust and fear of new ideas or of dissent, which I believe still exists today. The world looked on in horror on that day and I hope it never reaches that kind of a fever pitch again. It is the kind of thing one regretfully expects to happen at a demonstration in Iran, but not in the United States.
We need a body politic that is more receptive to different ideas before young people will be interested enough to enter the fray. I believe they thought they had found it in Obama. He motivated an entire generation that had not been motivated before. Don't you think the party in power represents the younger generation?

Peppermill wrote:

thewanderingjew wrote:

I actually posted that in order to indicate how similar conditions were then, compared to what they are now. That was the preamble to the Populist Party in 1892.

 
Were conditions really similar, or are we just capable of using the same words to apply to very different situations?


And I feel a political party that represents a "younger" generation has always been needed- especially in the 1960's, but thanks for the info!

 

Chad 

 

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chad
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP

Peppermill sprinkled:

 

"We need a body politic that is more receptive to different ideas before young people will be interested enough to enter the fray. I believe they thought they had found it in Obama. He motivated an entire generation that had not been motivated before. Don't you think the party in power represents the younger generation?"

 

I try to be optimistic, but I certainly do not feel that way for the decades, like the 50's and 60's. before my time, or the decades which feel a "generation gap"- which sometimes happens. The "generation x"- the 80's(?) was also a gap, I believe. And every change in admistrations is about a "change" that is needed, but the change that is needed is usually after the disaster. Obama was handed a collapsed economy, for example. But change, I think, is sometimes that "gap" we feel. Would the gap be better represented sometimes as a separate party and thereby make the goverment more efficient, more proactive? Maybe. I hope for the best.....:smileyhappy:

 

Best,

Chad

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chad
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP/ populist party

Wanderingjew:

 

I thought I'd pass on this website about the railroads from the virtual jewish library. Again I surf, as should everyone, "with caution." Not everything may be accurate, but always interesting. I'm now reading a classic about the railroads in the 1800's!

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0017_0_16366.html

 

Chad

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thewanderingjew
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP/ populist party

Chad, thank you. For most of my husband's working life, he was involved in finance and transportation. Railroads are dear to his heart. He will enjoy reading the article as well.

twj

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chad
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP/ populist party

[ Edited ]

Sure twj!

 

I'm actually reading the "The Way We Live Now" by Anthony Trollope which is about railroads and railroad financing among other things. My grandfather, of German ancestry, actually worked for the railroad as a conductor on Amtrak for a number of years. The train was, as you probably know, vital to the development of both eastern and western civilizations, and the classics writers of the 1800's seem to have that knack of always making their era something "timeless" -was the train the beginning of the "modern era" and so the end of the world as we know it? It's interesting that one group of Germans and Swiss-Germans, known as the Amish, "got off the train" a long time ago and continue to live a less "modern" but independent (agrarian) lifestyle in Northeastern, North "central" America and Canada.

 

Chad   

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Jon_B
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP/ populist party

 


chad wrote:
It's interesting that one group of Germans and Swiss-Germans, known as the Amish, "got off the train" a long time ago and continue to live a less "modern" but independent (agrarian) lifestyle in Northeastern, North "central" America and Canada.

Chad   


 

 

I guess you mean that figuratively?  Amish people definitely still ride trains, I've seen Amish families on trains many times in central PA.  I'm not sure why trains are more acceptable than cars to them, I guess it's just because trains are a bit older.

 

 

 

 

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chad
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP/ populist party/Amish diversion

[ Edited ]

"I guess you mean that figuratively?  Amish people definitely still ride trains, I've seen Amish families on trains many times in central PA.  I'm not sure why trains are more acceptable than cars to them, I guess it's just because trains are a bit older."

 

Jon-

 

True. I did mean "got off the train" in a figurative sense, and religion would be the reason the Amish diverted. There are also different sects of the Jewish religion- mainly orthodox and nonorthodox. And we could be a diversion of that faith. I believe the Amish restrict travel, but they do travel by train-  not sure that was always the case, though...

 

Best,

Chad

 

PS- I'm reading "The Way We Live Now" by Anthony Trollope which describes religion, among other things, as a train. Hopefully faith, like a train, provides us with forward positive momentum. Trollope, however, also mentions the example of the "juggernaut"- a Hindu "alter-on-wheels" which was known to run over religious fanatics who threw themselves in front of the wagon. I don't think we want to be "run over" by religion, but this sometimes happens during modern day automobile funeral processions...

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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP/ populist party

[ Edited ]

Jon_B wrote:

 

I'm not sure why trains are more acceptable than cars to them, I guess it's just because trains are a bit older. 

 


I don’t think it’s an issue of trains being more or less acceptable, per se.  I think it’s an issue of driving.  As far as I understand, and I could be totally wrong, but I think the issue with cars has to do with driving.  While restrictions, of course, vary from community to community, there are Amish who will not drive, but are o.k. with being passengers.  Which is probably why you will more likely see them on trains than driving a car.  But, in some of the communities out in Central PA there is actually bus and van service offered between the various communities. 

 

Last summer, I went biking in Union County, PA.  First off, gorgeous.  But the reason I mention it is because, while I saw many Amish driving the horse and buggy, I also saw a lot being transported by vans.  I often road along a main road early in the morning, not long after dawn.  And then again in the late afternoon, just as dusk approached.  Along this road were many dirt roads that led past fields to houses and barns.  And I often saw two vans coming and going from these side roads, carrying Amish passengers, up and down along the main road.  It seemed to be a fairly regular means of transportation. 

 

Also, the Amish vendors at the Reading Terminal regularly transport their product in some sort of vehicle.

 

 

Edited to fix a link...hopefully.

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Psychee
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP/ populist party

I believe the issue with the Amish not driving isn't about the driving per se (after all, they drive their horse-drawn wagons) but rather one of refusing to own a motorized vehicle because that will lead to pride.  Remaining humble is a central tenet of the religion. 

 

Thus, most have no problems with the idea of hiring a driver to go somewhere beyond where their horses can comfortably go, or of getting on a bus, or of going on a train. 

 

And if a motorized vehicle is necessary for the community to sell its wares, it is not unheard of for the community as a whole, after a whole lot of prayer, I guess,  to purchase and own the vehicle, thus avoiding the situation of any one person risking the sin of pride.

 

 

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Jon_B
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP/ populist party

[ Edited ]

Horse-drawn buggies can be pretty fancy though, and there are certainly motorized vehicles that can be humble.  I wonder how they decided that having the vehicle be motor-powered makes it more likely to lead to pride?  After all, people can certainly be prideful of particular horses that they own.

 

Or of well-crafted furniture and carptentry that they've produced, for that matter.

 

 

 

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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP/ populist party

I've often wondered why the Amish didn't move towards the Meneite feeling towards cars. All black, models 15 years old +, and all chrome or shiney parts removed.

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Psychee
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Re: New Poll On The True Feelings Of The GOP/ populist party


Jon_B wrote:

Horse-drawn buggies can be pretty fancy though, and there are certainly motorized vehicles that can be humble.  I wonder how they decided that having the vehicle be motor-powered makes it more likely to lead to pride?  After all, people can certainly be prideful of particular horses that they own.

 

Or of well-crafted furniture and carptentry that they've produced, for that matter.

 

 

 


 

Buggies within a certain group tend to be standardized to prevent the pride factor from creeping in within the community.  Some communities, for example, use all black, some use yellow tops, some use all yellow.

 

But, like you said, one can be prideful of almost anything, right down to the color of your eyes or the shininess of your hair.   If you start to act like you are prideful, though, the community reminds you of your faith.

 

My guess about the cars is that the decision was made long before everyone else owned them.  When cars first came out, owning them was a status symbol.  Now that everyone owns them, though, there is an additional consideration -- since they are not made in a way that would enable a typical Amish person from making one himself, they are considered "of the world" and owning them (for personal use) would be a step into the world in a way that would increase their dependence on the world.  I guess they see this as a kind of slippery slope.  The other issue is a concern that using cars every day would quicken the pace of their lives, which they do not want.  

 

Speaking about not wanting to be dependent, did you know that self-employed Amish don't pay Social Security tax?  They don't collect Social Security either. 

 

TB -- the Mennonites are less strict about such things -- it's just a matter of how they interpret the relevant Bible passages.

 

There's a nice website here for anyone interested:  http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml