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Choisya
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Write a Manifesto?

Everyman posted the Democrat manifesto/platform and I have posted the Republican one and there has been a lot of criticism of both party's candidates on this board.  But how about their policies?  What about trying to write a Manifesto yourself, supporting the party policies you prefer? We could then vote on them - perhaps Jon could arrange this.

 

In recent elections, the Labour Party under Tony Blair's leadership, have put out a little election manifesto in the form of a credit card which could be carried around and read easily.  They have been very successful little publicity documents, listing 6 important pledges/policies which the party promised to carry out, and the media has monitored those pledges.  How about folks here trying to list  6 Democrat or 6 Republican policies, bullet point by bullet point, choosing the ones they think are most important and which will make the most impact on the electorate?  Nothing jokey, serious stuff. And no ad hominems!!   

 

It might help to look again at the Democrat and Republican platforms. Pretend you are addressing a newcomer to the US (or me!:smileysurprised:) and want to influence their vote. You could head your post 'My Democrat/Republican Manifesto' or 'KathyS Election Manifesto'  so that we can  follow who has posted.  No comments in between.  Just a vote at, say, the end of the month - Jon?? 

 

How about it?

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Jon_B
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

Sounds like an interesting idea.

 

I'd like to add, however, that I think we forget all too often that there are more than two political parties in the US, and more than two candidates currently running for president.  Of course, none of these other parties has had much of a shot in presidential elections or in most other races for that matter - the Democratic and Republican dominance of politics has made it rather difficult for anyone else to get in, and the popular perception that voting for another party is "throwing your vote away" (a perception which the D's and R's of course love to reinforce)  - but I think learning about these other parties is healthy and in the long run its good for our political system if other parties start coming into prominence - in the earlier stages of this election both the Green and Libertarian parties have gotten a bit more press than they normally do, which I take to be a good sign, and we also had a Republican candidate - Ron Paul - who acted largely as an independant candidate, ran with a rather unique platform, and for a while was building up a very strong grassroots campaign - up until the primaries basically took the wind out of his sails (and many of his followers are now taken up with the idea of building a libertarian community in Texas).

 

So purposes of clarity, there are actually five major parties who are listed on the ballots in enough states that the possibility exists for them to have a winning candidate for president:

 

Democrat (candidate Barack Obama)

Republican (candidate John McCain)

Libertarian (candidate Bob Barr)

Green (candidate Cynthia McKinny)

Constitution (candidate Charles Baldwin)

 

There are also independant candidates - such as Ralph Nader - and several smaller parties, such as Ameica's Independent  Party, the Socialist Party USA, and the Reform Party - however these smaller parties are not on the ballots in enough states for their candidates to possibly be elected.  

 

I don't know if anyone here is a member of any of these smaller parties or has much interest in them, but I think its good to remember - even this late in the game - that they exist and that for those who are dissatisfied with the Democratic and Republican candidates, that there are more than two choices!

 

 

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Choisya
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

Thanks Jon.  Our smaller parties get lost too. They are mainly the nationalist parties for Wales, Scotland and Ireland, we don't have as many as you. So folks could write a Manifesto for any of the following (in alpha order by party):-   

 

America's Independent  Party

Constitution (candidate Charles Baldwin)

Democrat (candidate Barack Obama)

Green (candidate Cynthia McKinny)

Libertarian (candidate Bob Barr)

Reform Party

Republican (candidate John McCain)

Socialist Party USA

 

 


Jon_B wrote:

Sounds like an interesting idea.

 

I'd like to add, however, that I think we forget all too often that there are more than two political parties in the US, and more than two candidates currently running for president.  Of course, none of these other parties has had much of a shot in presidential elections or in most other races for that matter - the Democratic and Republican dominance of politics has made it rather difficult for anyone else to get in, and the popular perception that voting for another party is "throwing your vote away" (a perception which the D's and R's of course love to reinforce)  - but I think learning about these other parties is healthy and in the long run its good for our political system if other parties start coming into prominence - in the earlier stages of this election both the Green and Libertarian parties have gotten a bit more press than they normally do, which I take to be a good sign, and we also had a Republican candidate - Ron Paul - who acted largely as an independant candidate, ran with a rather unique platform, and for a while was building up a very strong grassroots campaign - up until the primaries basically took the wind out of his sails (and many of his followers are now taken up with the idea of building a libertarian community in Texas).

 

So purposes of clarity, there are actually five major parties who are listed on the ballots in enough states that the possibility exists for them to have a winning candidate for president:

 

Democrat (candidate Barack Obama)

Republican (candidate John McCain)

Libertarian (candidate Bob Barr)

Green (candidate Cynthia McKinny)

Constitution (candidate Charles Baldwin)

Ralph Nader - Independent

 

There are also independant candidates - such as Ralph Nader - and several smaller parties, such as Ameica's Independent  Party, the Socialist Party USA, and the Reform Party - however these smaller parties are not on the ballots in enough states for their candidates to possibly be elected.  

 

I don't know if anyone here is a member of any of these smaller parties or has much interest in them, but I think its good to remember - even this late in the game - that they exist and that for those who are dissatisfied with the Democratic and Republican candidates, that there are more than two choices!

 

 


 

RTA
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RTA
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Re: Bob Barr

No, I'm not a Libertarian and I know this thread is meant to discuss party platforms.  But, since I find that people often know very little about the Libertarian position, I thought I'd link this article about Barr from The New Yorker.  Because of where my office is located, I get a free newsletter from the Libertarians, I think it's monthly.  It's interesting, I can both understand why they're often considered whackadoos, but I can also understand the draw. 

 

Hope you don't mind the little diversion, Choisya.

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Everyman
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

I'll summarize the Democratic tax plan for you.

 

Take money from the people who mostly vote Republican.

 

Hand it over to the people who mostly vote Democratic.

 

That's it in a nutshell. 

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debbook
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

Well, so much for that. It's a nice idea Choisya but I can see this is already going to be acrimonous. Too bad.
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Everyman
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

Do you disagree with my analysis, then?

 

I didn't see it as acrimonious, but as a bare bones statement of what his tax plan actually constitutes. 

 

Which part of it isn't accurate?  

 


debbook wrote:
Well, so much for that. It's a nice idea Choisya but I can see this is already going to be acrimonous. Too bad.

 

 

 

 

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Choisya
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

Yes, debbook:smileysad:.  I can see now why your campaigns and your candidates are so vitriolic.  Again, I wish I hadn't posted this thread.   

 


debbook wrote:
Well, so much for that. It's a nice idea Choisya but I can see this is already going to be acrimonous. Too bad.

 

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Choisya
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Re: Let's forget it!

This thread was NOT to discuss party platforms, other threads are for that.   It was meant for people to put a Manifesto together in a sensible way and for people to vote on them..  As Debbook has said - so much for that exercise.    Although it would have indeed been interesting to have had a Libertarian manifesto put forward I now think it is better to forget the whole idea.   

 


RTA wrote:

No, I'm not a Libertarian and I know this thread is meant to discuss party platforms.  But, since I find that people often know very little about the Libertarian position, I thought I'd link this article about Barr from The New Yorker.  Because of where my office is located, I get a free newsletter from the Libertarians, I think it's monthly.  It's interesting, I can both understand why they're often considered whackadoos, but I can also understand the draw. 

 

Hope you don't mind the little diversion, Choisya.


 

 


RTA wrote:

No, I'm not a Libertarian and I know this thread is meant to discuss party platforms.  But, since I find that people often know very little about the Libertarian position, I thought I'd link this article about Barr from The New Yorker.  Because of where my office is located, I get a free newsletter from the Libertarians, I think it's monthly.  It's interesting, I can both understand why they're often considered whackadoos, but I can also understand the draw. 

 

Hope you don't mind the little diversion, Choisya.


 

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Everyman
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Re: Let's forget it!

I didn't discuss the platform.  I just presented it in terms that were a realistic summary instead of self-serving pap.

 


Choisya wrote:

This thread was NOT to discuss party platforms, other threads are for that.   It was meant for people to put a Manifesto together in a sensible way and for people to vote on them.. 

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Choisya
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Re: Let's forget it!

I suggested a Manifesto drawn up in a serious way so that a vote could be taken.  I was not asking for anything controversial or spiteful.  Supposing I present a Republican Manifesto which is summarised as 'We will Spend Your Taxes on War and More War'????   We can all play at that game but such partisanship was not what I was suggesting.  So just forget it or let everyone use this thread for yet more nasty point scoring!  Just compete for the Nastiest Manifesto instead!  I had hoped to introduce something a little less partisan and a bit more thoughtful but I should have had more sense. 

 

 

 


Everyman wrote:

I didn't discuss the platform.  I just presented it in terms that were a realistic summary instead of self-serving pap.

 


Choisya wrote:

This thread was NOT to discuss party platforms, other threads are for that.   It was meant for people to put a Manifesto together in a sensible way and for people to vote on them.. 


 

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Choisya
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

It is not whether it is acrimonious or not but it is not a Manifesto that any party would draw up as publicity for itself, it is a statement written from an opposition party p.o.v.   It could not be dropped through a letter box as a statement of 'pledges' by the Democrats which is what I was intending.  It was just another piece of political point scoring and there are several other threads devoted to that.        

 

 

 


Everyman wrote:

Do you disagree with my analysis, then?

 

I didn't see it as acrimonious, but as a bare bones statement of what his tax plan actually constitutes. 

 

Which part of it isn't accurate?  

 


debbook wrote:
Well, so much for that. It's a nice idea Choisya but I can see this is already going to be acrimonous. Too bad.

 

 

 

 


 

RTA
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Re: Let's forget it!


Choisya wrote:

This thread was NOT to discuss party platforms, other threads are for that.   It was meant for people to put a Manifesto together in a sensible way and for people to vote on them..  As Debbook has said - so much for that exercise.    Although it would have indeed been interesting to have had a Libertarian manifesto put forward I now think it is better to forget the whole idea.   


Ouch Choisya.  I certainly didn’t mean to interfere to the point that you would drop the whole idea.  I saw the discussion about marginal parties after having just read about Barr, and thought the article interesting enough to link.   I certainly didn’t mean to divert your thread to the point that you would give up on it entirely.

 

Otherwise, I don’t know enough about, or have enough interest in, party politics to participate in the suggested exercise.  So I’ll just keep out of this thread. 

 

And I have no problem if my post is deleted to keep the thread on topic.

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Maya2
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

I sure wish everything was that simple.  The only way this country is going to get back on track is to eliminate all lobbying in Washington and have term limits. Our elected officials should not be allowed to take any more from any special interest and actually represent the people who vote for them.
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Choisya
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Re: Let's forget it!

Sorry RTA - I've been in a bad mood today because of my posting problems but all I wanted was for folks to write 6 pledges as bullet points, as a miniature manifesto for any party they favoured or thought interesting.  You don't have to have a knowledge of party politics to  pick up 6 points from the excellent link you provided..  Knocking up 6 point manifestos for all of those parties would surely not be beyond the wit of any of the intelligent people who contribute to these threads.

 


RTA wrote:

Choisya wrote:

This thread was NOT to discuss party platforms, other threads are for that.   It was meant for people to put a Manifesto together in a sensible way and for people to vote on them..  As Debbook has said - so much for that exercise.    Although it would have indeed been interesting to have had a Libertarian manifesto put forward I now think it is better to forget the whole idea.   


Ouch Choisya.  I certainly didn’t mean to interfere to the point that you would drop the whole idea.  I saw the discussion about marginal parties after having just read about Barr, and thought the article interesting enough to link.   I certainly didn’t mean to divert your thread to the point that you would give up on it entirely.

 

Otherwise, I don’t know enough about, or have enough interest in, party politics to participate in the suggested exercise.  So I’ll just keep out of this thread. 

 

And I have no problem if my post is deleted to keep the thread on topic.


 

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Re: Write a Manifesto?

Actually, the only way we're going to get back on track is to return to the Federalist system and move a massive amount of government back to the state and local level. We have gone horribly away from the intent of the Constitution, and we are paying the price. There are several major reasons for this. The main one is money. The federal government is a huge money pot, where a few hundred votes can get companies and organizations hundreds of million dollars in benefits. Of course they are going to spend heavilyon those few hundred people. 

 

If instead of one huge money pot there were fifty modest money pots, it would be much more expensive and complicated for any one company to have the amount of influence they can now.  And there would be less impetus to game the system because there would be much less benefit to the gaming.  

 

Second, the closer politicians are to the voters, the harder it is for them to ignore the will of the people and to be crooked.  I am pretty sure that people in our community would know if any of our local politicians or the representatives we send to the state government were taking bribes or doing favors for campaign contributors.  It is much harder to keep track of a congressman or senator who is 3,000 miles away and has a huge and very competent staff to protect and spin for them.  And when I'm voting for my state representative I feel that my vote, within my legislative district, has much more impact than a vote for a senator elected by the whole state.  My local representatives come to our small town often during the camaign.   I've never seen a candidate for U.S.Senator in our community; with so few votes here compared to so many in Seattle, Olympia, Vancouver, and Spokane, they won't waste their time here.

 

A return to the federalist system that our wise founders intended is really the only way to begin to cure the system. 

 

But basically, the system is corrupt because there is so much money floating around the federal system (as they say, a billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking real money) that it is unrealistic not to expect companies to go after it with a vengeance. 

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Choisya
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

I agree but what on earth has this got to do with Manifestos???

 


Everyman wrote:

Actually, the only way we're going to get back on track is to return to the Federalist system and move a massive amount of government back to the state and local level. We have gone horribly away from the intent of the Constitution, and we are paying the price. There are several major reasons for this. The main one is money. The federal government is a huge money pot, where a few hundred votes can get companies and organizations hundreds of million dollars in benefits. Of course they are going to spend heavilyon those few hundred people. 

 

If instead of one huge money pot there were fifty modest money pots, it would be much more expensive and complicated for any one company to have the amount of influence they can now.  And there would be less impetus to game the system because there would be much less benefit to the gaming.  

 

Second, the closer politicians are to the voters, the harder it is for them to ignore the will of the people and to be crooked.  I am pretty sure that people in our community would know if any of our local politicians or the representatives we send to the state government were taking bribes or doing favors for campaign contributors.  It is much harder to keep track of a congressman or senator who is 3,000 miles away and has a huge and very competent staff to protect and spin for them.  And when I'm voting for my state representative I feel that my vote, within my legislative district, has much more impact than a vote for a senator elected by the whole state.  My local representatives come to our small town often during the camaign.   I've never seen a candidate for U.S.Senator in our community; with so few votes here compared to so many in Seattle, Olympia, Vancouver, and Spokane, they won't waste their time here.

 

A return to the federalist system that our wise founders intended is really the only way to begin to cure the system. 

 

But basically, the system is corrupt because there is so much money floating around the federal system (as they say, a billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking real money) that it is unrealistic not to expect companies to go after it with a vengeance. 


 

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Everyman
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

It was a response to Maya's post.  And since you said you thought we should abandon the idea of the manifestos, I didn't see any reason not to respond to Maya here.


Choisya wrote:

I agree but what on earth has this got to do with Manifestos???

 


Everyman wrote:

Actually, the only way we're going to get back on track is to return to the Federalist system and move a massive amount of government back to the state and local level. We have gone horribly away from the intent of the Constitution, and we are paying the price. There are several major reasons for this. The main one is money. The federal government is a huge money pot, where a few hundred votes can get companies and organizations hundreds of million dollars in benefits. Of course they are going to spend heavilyon those few hundred people. 

 

If instead of one huge money pot there were fifty modest money pots, it would be much more expensive and complicated for any one company to have the amount of influence they can now.  And there would be less impetus to game the system because there would be much less benefit to the gaming.  

 

Second, the closer politicians are to the voters, the harder it is for them to ignore the will of the people and to be crooked.  I am pretty sure that people in our community would know if any of our local politicians or the representatives we send to the state government were taking bribes or doing favors for campaign contributors.  It is much harder to keep track of a congressman or senator who is 3,000 miles away and has a huge and very competent staff to protect and spin for them.  And when I'm voting for my state representative I feel that my vote, within my legislative district, has much more impact than a vote for a senator elected by the whole state.  My local representatives come to our small town often during the camaign.   I've never seen a candidate for U.S.Senator in our community; with so few votes here compared to so many in Seattle, Olympia, Vancouver, and Spokane, they won't waste their time here.

 

A return to the federalist system that our wise founders intended is really the only way to begin to cure the system. 

 

But basically, the system is corrupt because there is so much money floating around the federal system (as they say, a billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking real money) that it is unrealistic not to expect companies to go after it with a vengeance. 


 


 

.

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Jon_B
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

Apologies for the derail - but I think it's a bit simplistic to describe federalism as "what our wise founders intended" given that the subject of federalism - and the degree of federalism - was a rather contentious subject about which many of the founders of the country disagreed with one another.  It saddens me when people describe the "founders" as a singular entity with a singular political philosophy when in fact they were in constant debate with one another and many of this country's earliest elections were as heated as those we have now.   John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were both founders of this country, but I certainly don't think we can say that they had the same views regarding federalism!   Perhaps this topic is better suited to the history board however. 
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Everyman
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Re: Write a Manifesto?

I am willing to modify "founders" to "those who voted to adopt the Constitution in its final form."  Whatever the various founders may have thought, it is clear enough, at least to me, that the Constitution intended to create a federal system, and that's what the states who voted to adopt it intended.

 


Jon_B wrote:
Apologies for the derail - but I think it's a bit simplistic to describe federalism as "what our wise founders intended" given that the subject of federalism - and the degree of federalism - was a rather contentious subject about which many of the founders of the country disagreed with one another.  It saddens me when people describe the "founders" as a singular entity with a singular political philosophy when in fact they were in constant debate with one another and many of this country's earliest elections were as heated as those we have now.   John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were both founders of this country, but I certainly don't think we can say that they had the same views regarding federalism!   Perhaps this topic is better suited to the history board however. 

 

 

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