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Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: economic terrorism??? huh?

Secondly Fox News did for McCain what MSNBC did for Obama.  So they both had their own cable news network.

 

I wasn't referring to that.  I should have said Dish rather than Cable, maybe, since I get dish and not cable out here.  But Obama had an entire channel on the DISH network to himself that he bought and paid for just as QVC, etc. do.  He was on, as I recall, channel 73 on our dish.  

 

Here's Politico's comment on it.

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Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: economic terrorism??? huh?

Millions of donors giving relatively small amounts — as opposed to large interest groups giving unlimited amounts — is, arguably, further democratization of the process. The Obama campaign reports it had 632,000 new donors in September, and the average gift was less than $100.

 

I haven't seen the article yet since I'll have to Google for it, but keep in mind that there were an unspecified number of donors who gave multiple small gifts.  We will never know who they were, since amounts under $200 aren't reported.    To the extent that normal credit cards were used, it would be theoretically possible to track the donors to see maybe not who the donor was but who the credit card holder was.  But Obama also accepted donations through those pre-paid cards you can buy now which are totally anonymous.  We do know that at least some illegal foreign donors used the under-$200 loophole to make donations; how many there were we don't know and can't know, but we do know that much of the world was supporting Obama and with it being so easy for foreign donors to make untraceable Internet donations, we will never know how much foreign money was influencing the election.  

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Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: economic terrorism : Campaign finance.

I agree Fforgnayr, McCain could have done the same thing

 

Could, of course, is a weasel word.  Obama could have won the election without raising or spending a single penny.  McCain could have raised a secret $1.5 billion from Russian oil millionaires and used it to pay each one of his voters to vote for him.   Your post could have been posted by an Obama campaign official who had hacked into your user account.  

 

The fact is that McCain believes in the public financing system (after all, he was a sponsor of it), and lived up to his promise to abide by those limits.  Obama made the same promise but broke it.  

 

Those are the facts.  You can speculate all you want about what could have happened.  But what we know is that did happen.  I prefer facts to speculations, frankly.

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Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Obama changed his mind about the way in which he wanted to fund his campaign and McCain could have done the same but didn't.  It was his choice. They both kept to the letter of the law and it was a question of strategy, not honour.  

 

Some of us believe that keeping promises you make is indeed a matter of honor. If you don't, fine.  But some of us do. 

 

Having lived much of your life close to the seats of political power, perhaps you are more comfortable with lying as a political strategy.  Frankly, I'm glad that I don't see dishonesty simply as a strategy and not as a matter of dishonor.  

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Ryan_G
Posts: 3,287
Registered: ‎10-24-2008
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Having lived much of your life close to the seats of political power, perhaps you are more comfortable with lying as a political strategy.  Frankly, I'm glad that I don't see dishonesty simply as a strategy and not as a matter of dishonor.  

 

Why is changing your mind lying?  If that is the case I've lied quite a bit in my life.  If I had a view on anything and later on I decided the other way, how is that lying about it?

 

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
Distinguished Bibliophile
Ryan_G
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

I'm goig to work now, but I will be back tonight to argue :smileywink:

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

That's a fair question. Sometimes one can legitimately change one's mind because facts and circumstances change.  But in this case, all the candidates were asked by I think the League of Womens Voters but it could have been some other equivalent organization whether they would publicly commit, if they were nominated, to accept public financing and the contribution limits that it provided for.  He had a choice to say yes, no, or I am not prepared to commit at this time.  However, he made the clear commitment.   

 

It was not until he realized that he could get a lot more money by breaking that promise that he did.  One can consider that simply a smart strategic decision, of course, on the theory that no politician should ever be held to any promise them make.  But since it was a clear commitment he made, and there was no barrier to his keeping his promise, I consider it to have been a violation of integrity and honor.  Which frankly is a character trait I dislike in my President.  

 


fforgnayr wrote:

Having lived much of your life close to the seats of political power, perhaps you are more comfortable with lying as a political strategy.  Frankly, I'm glad that I don't see dishonesty simply as a strategy and not as a matter of dishonor.  

 

Why is changing your mind lying?  If that is the case I've lied quite a bit in my life.  If I had a view on anything and later on I decided the other way, how is that lying about it?

 


 

 

 

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Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Please, not to "argue"; to "intelligently discuss."  :smileyvery-happy:

 


fforgnayr wrote:

I'm goig to work now, but I will be back tonight to argue :smileywink:


 

 

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TiggerBear
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.


Everyman wrote:

That's a fair question. Sometimes one can legitimately change one's mind because facts and circumstances change.  But in this case, all the candidates were asked by I think the League of Womens Voters but it could have been some other equivalent organization whether they would publicly commit, if they were nominated, to accept public financing and the contribution limits that it provided for.  He had a choice to say yes, no, or I am not prepared to commit at this time.  However, he made the clear commitment.   

 

It was not until he realized that he could get a lot more money by breaking that promise that he did.  One can consider that simply a smart strategic decision, of course, on the theory that no politician should ever be held to any promise them make.  But since it was a clear commitment he made, and there was no barrier to his keeping his promise, I consider it to have been a violation of integrity and honor.  Which frankly is a character trait I dislike in my President.  

 


fforgnayr wrote:

Having lived much of your life close to the seats of political power, perhaps you are more comfortable with lying as a political strategy.  Frankly, I'm glad that I don't see dishonesty simply as a strategy and not as a matter of dishonor.  

 

Why is changing your mind lying?  If that is the case I've lied quite a bit in my life.  If I had a view on anything and later on I decided the other way, how is that lying about it?

 


 

 

 


(cough) Expecting ANY politition to keep all of their promices; is a bit like expecting snow in July in the south. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. My husband asked me how many campain promices I expected him to keep , I said 20%. More would be nice, less I find unexceptable in any canidate.

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Ryan_G
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Ok, I'm back from work now.  Why do you not consider this a change of one's mind because the facts of circumstance changed?  He realized he could raise a great deal of money from people like me, so he changed his mind.  Commitments can and should in some cases be broken if a better way of doing something is found.

 

What better way of funding a campaing then for most of the money to come from individuals like myself who support him and his stances on the issues?

 

Why is is better to have the taxes that I paid go to a candidate I don't agree with on little if not any of the issues?

 

How is it not Democratic to have campaigns funded by the American people in the way they see fit?

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

There's nothing wrong as long as you want to go back to the days when the ability to raise money, rather than any skills relevant to the Presidency, was a critical factor in who won the Presidency.  But the public pressured the Congress to change that and make a financially even playing field so that the voters could decide more on merit than on who could throw the most money at the campaign. 

 

As it turns out, it looks now as though there were many fewer donors like you than we were led to believe, and substantial number of people gaming the system to give illegally large amounts of money and illegal foreign money.  Of course none of this will make any difference now, the lid was firmly kept on these facts until after the election.  

 

And no, I don't see that if you make a statement of principle that you accept the concept of public funding and limited campaign money in order to get the support of "good government" types, that once you have the nomination locked it is honorable to change your mind.  The simple fact that you can raise more money doesn't, IMO, justify rejecting a principle which you had only a few months before claimed was important to you.  

 

But I guess I'm old fashioned.  I used to support Hubert Humphrey, Adlai Stevenson, and their ilk, who were in fact men of principle and integrity.  I'm not willing to give in to the concept that a politican should be expected as a matter of course to lie at least 80% of the time.  And frankly, I don't think that's the sort of change that most voters thought they were voting for.  

 


fforgnayr wrote:

Ok, I'm back from work now.  Why do you not consider this a change of one's mind because the facts of circumstance changed?  He realized he could raise a great deal of money from people like me, so he changed his mind.  Commitments can and should in some cases be broken if a better way of doing something is found.

 

What better way of funding a campaing then for most of the money to come from individuals like myself who support him and his stances on the issues?

 

Why is is better to have the taxes that I paid go to a candidate I don't agree with on little if not any of the issues?

 

How is it not Democratic to have campaigns funded by the American people in the way they see fit?


 

 

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Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Why do you not consider this a change of one's mind because the facts of circumstance changed?

 

Okay.  I promise to sell you my edition of Shakespeare's First Folio $6,500.  Then somebody else comes along and offers me $7,000 and I dump you and tell you that I changed my mind because I now realize that I can get more money by breaking my promise.   Do you just say, well, things change, promises mean nothing, that's fine, go sell it to the other guy?  

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Ryan_G
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Actually if he would appreciate and do a better job in caring for it yes.  You should dump me and sell it to him.  Circumstances change, you have to be able to adapt to the changes.  I'm not saying that a politician should "flip flop" on even a thir of what they say.  But reality needs to be flexible.  Do I want President Obama (thats sounds so good) to get the troops out of Iraq now?  Sure I do, but I understand and accept the fact that circumstances may not support the idea and a more scaled back troop withdrawl might be called for. 

 

I wish polictians could be as idealistic as I am, but I also understand that in order for them to do what they believe needs to be done to help our country they need to win the election first.  You can have brilliant ideas and know exactly what need to be done, but if you don't win it doesn't matter.  You have to win the job to be able to do what needs to be done to move our country forward.  I understand it and quite honestly I think everyone who voted for him understands this.  I really don't think that anyone who voted for him did so not knowing about his "broken promise" on campaign finance.  And if some of the money came from individuals gaming the system to donate more than they should, and it was known before the election I would guess very few votes would have been changed.

 

And lastly, you can't tell me that McCain did not have any "illegal" donations over his website. 

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Do I want President Obama (thats sounds so good) to get the troops out of Iraq now?  Sure I do, but I understand and accept the fact that circumstances may not support the idea and a more scaled back troop withdrawl might be called for.

 

A broad policy commitment is one thing.

 

A very specific promise to accept campaign contribution limits is a very different thing.

 

But we won't agree on this.

 

I just hope that Obama has enough integrity that he doesn't renege on every one of his campaign promises.  But so far, he hasn't kept a one.  So we'll have to see.  

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Everyman
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Actually if he would appreciate and do a better job in caring for it yes. 

 

Nope.  He just want to own it because he hates you and wants to keep it from you.  He'll probably let it rot away in his cellar.  But he's happy because you don't expect me to be honest enough to fulfill my promise to you, so he can best you and you won't do anything about it.  

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Ryan_G
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

I think for once I am going to agree with you and say no we won't agree on this. 

 

I just hope that you watch and observe President Obama with an open mind, if you do I don't think you will be able to find fault with everything he does (the way you seem to do now)

 

And if not, I'm going to enjoy going back and forth with you :smileyvery-happy:

 

But for now goodnight.

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
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Ryan_G
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

So not even comparable to President Obama changing his mind on public financing, but it was a good chuckle.  So thanks.

 

I don't see how anyone could hate me :smileywink: So I reject your premiss to begin with.

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: economic terrorism??? Honour.

Having lived most of my life close to honourable leading politicians, I know all about strategy during elections. There was no dishonesty in Obama's decision. There would have been many occasions when both candidates changed their mind about how they were going to conduct the election, where they were going to go, to whom they would speak, what they would say etc. etc.  Meetings deciding such things take place every day because whatever is planned at the outset of an election can be sent off course by a variety of circumstances, insufficient money to do what you want to do being the most important of them. 

 

I think even you would agree that the amount of money available is essential in fighting a winning election.  Mr Obama and his team obviously agreed that they could get more money by this particular strategy and Mr McCain and his team obviously agreed that public funds would be sufficient.  If you are saying that McCain and his team foreswore fundraising by the Obama method because of 'honour' and knew that they risked losing the election because they had less funds to deploy, then I have to say that is a very naive approach to electioneering.   I am sure that McCain is now kicking himself for making that decision and sticking to it and that he would not consider honour entered into it if he could have his time again.   'Honour' has only entered the equation to slur the winner and to cover the mistake made by McCain and his team.  I think that this is dishonourable because what was done was within the rules of your system which surely aren't dishonourable.          

 

 

 


Everyman wrote:

Obama changed his mind about the way in which he wanted to fund his campaign and McCain could have done the same but didn't.  It was his choice. They both kept to the letter of the law and it was a question of strategy, not honour.  

 

Some of us believe that keeping promises you make is indeed a matter of honor. If you don't, fine.  But some of us do. 

 

Having lived much of your life close to the seats of political power, perhaps you are more comfortable with lying as a political strategy.  Frankly, I'm glad that I don't see dishonesty simply as a strategy and not as a matter of dishonor.  


 

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Choisya
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

But so far, he hasn't kept a one.

 

It is less than a week since he became President-elect.  He cannot enact any of his policies until he takes office and even then I assume that in your democratic system these policies have to be voted upon. 

 

  

 

 


Everyman wrote:

Do I want President Obama (thats sounds so good) to get the troops out of Iraq now?  Sure I do, but I understand and accept the fact that circumstances may not support the idea and a more scaled back troop withdrawl might be called for.

 

A broad policy commitment is one thing.

 

A very specific promise to accept campaign contribution limits is a very different thing.

 

But we won't agree on this.

 

I just hope that Obama has enough integrity that he doesn't renege on every one of his campaign promises.  But so far, he hasn't kept a one.  So we'll have to see.  


 

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Choisya
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Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

I just hope that you watch and observe President Obama with an open mind.

 

An impossible dream F?

 

I hope that the bitterness on this board is not reflected in America at large, when it has just made such a brave new entry onto the world stage and needs all the friends it can get.

 

 

 

 

 


fforgnayr wrote:

I think for once I am going to agree with you and say no we won't agree on this. 

 

I just hope that you watch and observe President Obama with an open mind, if you do I don't think you will be able to find fault with everything he does (the way you seem to do now)

 

And if not, I'm going to enjoy going back and forth with you :smileyvery-happy:

 

But for now goodnight.