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Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Well stated Ff.  Politics is the art of the possible.  Ideals may drive parties and campaigns but harsh realities intervene. 

 

(If there were 'illegal' donations then that is the fault of your system not the candidates and everyone should lobby their representative to make sure that it changes in time for the next election.  We had a similar problem with foreign donations over here but that loophole has now been closed.)

 


fforgnayr wrote:

Actually if he would appreciate and do a better job in caring for it yes.  You should dump me and sell it to him.  Circumstances change, you have to be able to adapt to the changes.  I'm not saying that a politician should "flip flop" on even a thir of what they say.  But reality needs to be flexible.  Do I want President Obama (thats sounds so good) to get the troops out of Iraq now?  Sure I do, but I understand and accept the fact that circumstances may not support the idea and a more scaled back troop withdrawl might be called for. 

 

I wish polictians could be as idealistic as I am, but I also understand that in order for them to do what they believe needs to be done to help our country they need to win the election first.  You can have brilliant ideas and know exactly what need to be done, but if you don't win it doesn't matter.  You have to win the job to be able to do what needs to be done to move our country forward.  I understand it and quite honestly I think everyone who voted for him understands this.  I really don't think that anyone who voted for him did so not knowing about his "broken promise" on campaign finance.  And if some of the money came from individuals gaming the system to donate more than they should, and it was known before the election I would guess very few votes would have been changed.

 

And lastly, you can't tell me that McCain did not have any "illegal" donations over his website. 


 

Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Donations.

Once again, may I point out that this is a fault of your system, not a fault of Obamas!  Get your system sorted, don't blame your candidates for using the system as it stands!  If Obama's team got donations from overseas then you can be sure than McCain exploited this loophole too. Both candidates had a duty to their party and their supporters to raise as much money as possible. 

 

Aren't these donations accounted for?  Won't they be published?  It seems a very sloppy system!  

 


Everyman wrote:

Millions of donors giving relatively small amounts — as opposed to large interest groups giving unlimited amounts — is, arguably, further democratization of the process. The Obama campaign reports it had 632,000 new donors in September, and the average gift was less than $100.

 

I haven't seen the article yet since I'll have to Google for it, but keep in mind that there were an unspecified number of donors who gave multiple small gifts.  We will never know who they were, since amounts under $200 aren't reported.    To the extent that normal credit cards were used, it would be theoretically possible to track the donors to see maybe not who the donor was but who the credit card holder was.  But Obama also accepted donations through those pre-paid cards you can buy now which are totally anonymous.  We do know that at least some illegal foreign donors used the under-$200 loophole to make donations; how many there were we don't know and can't know, but we do know that much of the world was supporting Obama and with it being so easy for foreign donors to make untraceable Internet donations, we will never know how much foreign money was influencing the election.  


 

Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? It's the system!

So what?!  It was a legal thing for him to do.  Again, change your system if you don't like what the candidate's can buy!  I find it extraordinary that folks are complaining about the candidate instead of the system.    If you turn it all into partisan politics your system will never change!

 

 

 

 


Everyman wrote:

Secondly Fox News did for McCain what MSNBC did for Obama.  So they both had their own cable news network.

 

I wasn't referring to that.  I should have said Dish rather than Cable, maybe, since I get dish and not cable out here.  But Obama had an entire channel on the DISH network to himself that he bought and paid for just as QVC, etc. do.  He was on, as I recall, channel 73 on our dish.  

 

Here's Politico's comment on it.


 

Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism : Campaign finance.

Flights of fancy apart, it is still a fact that McCain could have done the same thing.  There was nothing to prevent him doing so, that is a fact.  I believe in public financing too but if I was up against a candidate who was going to raise more money for his/her election by not using it, I would not be so pig-headed as to stick to my decision if it risked losing that election, and losing it for my supporters too.

 

Blame the system not the candidates!

 


Everyman wrote:

I agree Fforgnayr, McCain could have done the same thing

 

Could, of course, is a weasel word.  Obama could have won the election without raising or spending a single penny.  McCain could have raised a secret $1.5 billion from Russian oil millionaires and used it to pay each one of his voters to vote for him.   Your post could have been posted by an Obama campaign official who had hacked into your user account.  

 

The fact is that McCain believes in the public financing system (after all, he was a sponsor of it), and lived up to his promise to abide by those limits.  Obama made the same promise but broke it.  

 

Those are the facts.  You can speculate all you want about what could have happened.  But what we know is that did happen.  I prefer facts to speculations, frankly.


 

Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Could you explain to me what exactly you mean by a 'promise'?  Did Obama use the word 'promise' or did he swear to do this on an oath? Other people seem to have turned something Obama said into a promise - that does not make it a promise.

 

Is any statement you make a promise which means you cannot change your mind?  When I make a promise I use the word and make sure that everyone knows that I am committed to it.  Just saying something is not a promise. How do you differentiate between mere statements and promises if there isn't a clear cut line between the two? 

 

 

 


Everyman wrote:

Obama changed his mind about the way in which he wanted to fund his campaign and McCain could have done the same but didn't.  It was his choice. They both kept to the letter of the law and it was a question of strategy, not honour.  

 

Some of us believe that keeping promises you make is indeed a matter of honor. If you don't, fine.  But some of us do. 

 

Having lived much of your life close to the seats of political power, perhaps you are more comfortable with lying as a political strategy.  Frankly, I'm glad that I don't see dishonesty simply as a strategy and not as a matter of dishonor.  


 

Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? huh?


Millions of donors giving relatively small amounts — as opposed to large interest groups giving unlimited amounts — is, arguably, further democratization of the process. The Obama campaign reports it had 632,000 new donors in September, and the average gift was less than $100.

 

This democratic method of raising funds has been widely admired in the rest of the world and other political parties are seeking to emulate it.  There will therefore be an enormous amount of scrutiny into the process.  It was also another reason for America to be proud of this election because it widened the democratic base. 

 

It would seem that online donations have created a 'dog's dinner' for both candidates (all candidates) and that rules and software should be improved before the next election.  I have been involved in this process and know how difficult it can be keep track of where donations come from.  It is not a matter of deception but rather lack of competence in most cases, and nowadays of inefficient software too.  And the more untrained people/volunteers you have involved in a campaign at ground level, the worse this problem becomes. Cash donations come in from all and sundry in the strangest of ways - pushed into your hand, your pocket, in shoeboxes, with chocolates, in unaddressed envelopes and so on.  It is a nightmare, especially towards the end of a campaign when things get frantic!  So try not to judge candidates too harshly in this matter - they are in the hands of their often inexperienced, overworked helpers and more often than not, no deception is intended.           

 

 

Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Honour.

Having lived most of my life close to honourable leading politicians, I know all about strategy during elections. There was no dishonesty in Obama's decision.

 

Your definitions of honor and honesty are clearly very different from mine.  

 

Frankly, I prefer mine.  I'm glad that I don't have the sort of mind that thinks lying when it gets you an advantage is mere strategy.  

 

I guess we now have to say that, to some people at least, all's fair in love, war, and politics.  

 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

I hope that the bitterness on this board is not reflected in America at large, when it has just made such a brave new entry onto the world stage and needs all the friends it can get.

 

I havlen't seen any bitterness here.  Just deep disappointment that some people are so willing to elect a politician for whom expediency is more important than truth and integrity.   By the time their eyes are open, it will, sadly, be too late.  But that's the bed we as a country have made, and now we have to sleep in it.  Which is not bitterness, but sadness -- the same sort of sadness I experience when I see a niece of mine making very bad decisions which will haunt her life.  But that's how life is. The school of hard knocks gives you the exam first, then the lesson. 

 

And I'm not sure that your idea of who we should be making friends with is the same as the idea of those who actually live in this country. 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Donations.

Once again, may I point out that this is a fault of your system, not a fault of Obamas! 

 

I see.  So if somebody robs a bank, that is the fault of the system, not of the robber.

 

Our system relies on the integrity of the politicians, and is an after the fact system.    Contributions are not reported until some time after they have been made, so there is no way for the system to control illegal contributions until they are reported.    I suppose your proposal is that every contributor has to get his or her contribution approved BEFORE it goes to the candidate?  That's the only way to prevent a candidate from getting illegal donations, using them to get elected, then months later admitting that they were illegal and returning them.  

 

If Obama's team got donations from overseas then you can be sure than McCain exploited this loophole too.

 

Unless you can prove this, it is simple libel.  But it's apparently just your belief that all politicians are dishonest just like Obama is.  Maybe that comes from your years of interactions with politicans.   Fortuantely, you're wrong: there are indeed still a few honest politicians around.   

 

You do seem amazingly interested in trashing an honest American politician.   Isn't there enough political dishonest in England to satisfy your needs?  

 


Choisya wrote:

Once again, may I point out that this is a fault of your system, not a fault of Obamas!  Get your system sorted, don't blame your candidates for using the system as it stands!  If Obama's team got donations from overseas then you can be sure than McCain exploited this loophole too. Both candidates had a duty to their party and their supporters to raise as much money as possible. 

 

Aren't these donations accounted for?  Won't they be published?  It seems a very sloppy system!  

 


Everyman wrote:

Millions of donors giving relatively small amounts — as opposed to large interest groups giving unlimited amounts — is, arguably, further democratization of the process. The Obama campaign reports it had 632,000 new donors in September, and the average gift was less than $100.

 

I haven't seen the article yet since I'll have to Google for it, but keep in mind that there were an unspecified number of donors who gave multiple small gifts.  We will never know who they were, since amounts under $200 aren't reported.    To the extent that normal credit cards were used, it would be theoretically possible to track the donors to see maybe not who the donor was but who the credit card holder was.  But Obama also accepted donations through those pre-paid cards you can buy now which are totally anonymous.  We do know that at least some illegal foreign donors used the under-$200 loophole to make donations; how many there were we don't know and can't know, but we do know that much of the world was supporting Obama and with it being so easy for foreign donors to make untraceable Internet donations, we will never know how much foreign money was influencing the election.  


 


 

 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Could you explain to me what exactly you mean by a 'promise'?

 

If you don't know what a promise is, nothing I can say will do any good.  

 

No wonder we're in disagreement here.

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

 

 

 

 

 

He is not in office yet , or have I slept through Thanksgiving, Christmas and the big going in ceremony???? Oh! He is getting his  coins ready already though!. He is electing his working team. But hey, he's gotta go thru what the rest of them go thru and follow dates to be the President! A difference than President elect!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Everyman wrote:

Do I want President Obama (thats sounds so good) to get the troops out of Iraq now?  Sure I do, but I understand and accept the fact that circumstances may not support the idea and a more scaled back troop withdrawl might be called for.

 

A broad policy commitment is one thing.

 

A very specific promise to accept campaign contribution limits is a very different thing.

 

But we won't agree on this.

 

I just hope that Obama has enough integrity that he doesn't renege on every one of his campaign promises.  But so far, he hasn't kept a one.  So we'll have to see.  


 

Distinguished Bibliophile
Ryan_G
Posts: 3,295
Registered: ‎10-24-2008
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

I think it may be impossible for some.  I think the right is going to go after him from day one like they did Clinton.  There are certain segments of that side in our country that can't believe anyone should vote against them.  That if we do, then we are Anti-American.  And since we are Anti-American we must be fought at every turn.

Choisya wrote:

I just hope that you watch and observe President Obama with an open mind.

 

An impossible dream F?

 

I hope that the bitterness on this board is not reflected in America at large, when it has just made such a brave new entry onto the world stage and needs all the friends it can get.

 

 

 

 

 


fforgnayr wrote:

I think for once I am going to agree with you and say no we won't agree on this. 

 

I just hope that you watch and observe President Obama with an open mind, if you do I don't think you will be able to find fault with everything he does (the way you seem to do now)

 

And if not, I'm going to enjoy going back and forth with you :smileyvery-happy:

 

But for now goodnight.


 


 

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
Distinguished Bibliophile
Ryan_G
Posts: 3,295
Registered: ‎10-24-2008
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

if it wasn't the way the campaing was financed it would be something else.  Look what happended to Clinton.  Billions of dollars and years of investigations over WhiteWater and all they could come up with was him lying about having sex.  Jerry Falwell even sold a video tape on his broadcast accusing the Clinton's of murder and drug smuggling. 

 

But if a Democrat complained about Sara Palin's qualifications or her horrible interview skills, we were called sexist and every thing else. 

 

There is a doulbe standard on the right.  They come after us with everything they got but if we dare fight back we are communists, socialists, anti-American, love terrorists and every other stupid thing out there. 

 

They need to get over it, they lost, shut up, quit complaining and move on.

 

 

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
Distinguished Bibliophile
Ryan_G
Posts: 3,295
Registered: ‎10-24-2008
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

One last point on the hypocrisy of the right.

 

Why is it that if a celebrity comes out for the conservatives they are hailed as a voice of reason and great weight must be given to their words.

 

When a celebrity supports a Democrat they are blasted as an out of touch liberal from Hollywood.  They are told that they need to shut up because nobody cares about their opinion.  When a Republican celebrity speaks out we all need to shut up and listen. 

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

There are indeed a few people on both sides of the spectrum who will go after the winner no matter what. Certainly Bush was being attacked by the left even before he took office.  I expect there are "payback" people who will return the favor for Obama. 

 

I'm willing to give him a chance, but as to "open mind," if that means accepting the doctrines that his pastor preached to him (which I believe utterly that he heard and didn't object to until it became politically expedient to claim that the didn't), I admit that I won't be very open minded about that. Nor will I be open minded if he gives Ayres a post in the White House.  

 

Open minds should not be unthinking minds  

 


fforgnayr wrote:
I think it may be impossible for some.  I think the right is going to go after him from day one like they did Clinton.  There are certain segments of that side in our country that can't believe anyone should vote against them.  That if we do, then we are Anti-American.  And since we are Anti-American we must be fought at every turn.

Choisya wrote:

I just hope that you watch and observe President Obama with an open mind.

 

An impossible dream F?

 

I hope that the bitterness on this board is not reflected in America at large, when it has just made such a brave new entry onto the world stage and needs all the friends it can get.

 

 

 

 

 


fforgnayr wrote:

I think for once I am going to agree with you and say no we won't agree on this. 

 

I just hope that you watch and observe President Obama with an open mind, if you do I don't think you will be able to find fault with everything he does (the way you seem to do now)

 

And if not, I'm going to enjoy going back and forth with you :smileyvery-happy:

 

But for now goodnight.


 


 


 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Billions of dollars and years of investigations over WhiteWater and all they could come up with was him lying about having sex.

 

It was more -- much  more -- than lying about having sex.  It was  a lawyer, and the man in absolute charge of the Justice Department, committing clear and unequivocal perjury.  Lying under oath.  He was disbarred for that, and properly so.  Of course he doesn't care, he's making hundreds of millions of dollars in other ways, but to the legal profession, it was a very big deal, and it should have been a very big deal to anybody who believes in the importance of integrity in our judicial system. 

 


fforgnayr wrote:

if it wasn't the way the campaing was financed it would be something else.  Look what happended to Clinton.  Billions of dollars and years of investigations over WhiteWater and all they could come up with was him lying about having sex.  Jerry Falwell even sold a video tape on his broadcast accusing the Clinton's of murder and drug smuggling. 

 

But if a Democrat complained about Sara Palin's qualifications or her horrible interview skills, we were called sexist and every thing else. 

 

There is a doulbe standard on the right.  They come after us with everything they got but if we dare fight back we are communists, socialists, anti-American, love terrorists and every other stupid thing out there. 

 

They need to get over it, they lost, shut up, quit complaining and move on.

 

 


 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Bibliophile
Ryan_G
Posts: 3,295
Registered: ‎10-24-2008
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

Nor will I be open minded if he gives Ayres a post in the White House.  

 

Seriously?  That's what the conversation has come to now?  I have to admit this is the first time I've heard such a preposterous statement.  Like anyone would even consider it.  Come on.

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
Distinguished Bibliophile
Ryan_G
Posts: 3,295
Registered: ‎10-24-2008
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

That wasn't my point.  My point was that Republicans will go after Obama the way they went aftrer Clinton.  Complete fishing to find anything they can.

 


Everyman wrote:

Billions of dollars and years of investigations over WhiteWater and all they could come up with was him lying about having sex.

 

It was more -- much  more -- than lying about having sex.  It was  a lawyer, and the man in absolute charge of the Justice Department, committing clear and unequivocal perjury.  Lying under oath.  He was disbarred for that, and properly so.  Of course he doesn't care, he's making hundreds of millions of dollars in other ways, but to the legal profession, it was a very big deal, and it should have been a very big deal to anybody who believes in the importance of integrity in our judicial system. 

 


fforgnayr wrote:

if it wasn't the way the campaing was financed it would be something else.  Look what happended to Clinton.  Billions of dollars and years of investigations over WhiteWater and all they could come up with was him lying about having sex.  Jerry Falwell even sold a video tape on his broadcast accusing the Clinton's of murder and drug smuggling. 

 

But if a Democrat complained about Sara Palin's qualifications or her horrible interview skills, we were called sexist and every thing else. 

 

There is a doulbe standard on the right.  They come after us with everything they got but if we dare fight back we are communists, socialists, anti-American, love terrorists and every other stupid thing out there. 

 

They need to get over it, they lost, shut up, quit complaining and move on.

 

 


 

 


 

"I am half sick of shadows" The Lady of Shalott

http://wordsmithonia.blogspot.com
Distinguished Bibliophile
TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.


fforgnayr wrote:

That wasn't my point.  My point was that Republicans will go after Obama the way they went aftrer Clinton.  Complete fishing to find anything they can.

 


Everyman wrote:

Billions of dollars and years of investigations over WhiteWater and all they could come up with was him lying about having sex.

 

It was more -- much  more -- than lying about having sex.  It was  a lawyer, and the man in absolute charge of the Justice Department, committing clear and unequivocal perjury.  Lying under oath.  He was disbarred for that, and properly so.  Of course he doesn't care, he's making hundreds of millions of dollars in other ways, but to the legal profession, it was a very big deal, and it should have been a very big deal to anybody who believes in the importance of integrity in our judicial system. 

 


fforgnayr wrote:

if it wasn't the way the campaing was financed it would be something else.  Look what happended to Clinton.  Billions of dollars and years of investigations over WhiteWater and all they could come up with was him lying about having sex.  Jerry Falwell even sold a video tape on his broadcast accusing the Clinton's of murder and drug smuggling. 

 

But if a Democrat complained about Sara Palin's qualifications or her horrible interview skills, we were called sexist and every thing else. 

 

There is a doulbe standard on the right.  They come after us with everything they got but if we dare fight back we are communists, socialists, anti-American, love terrorists and every other stupid thing out there. 

 

They need to get over it, they lost, shut up, quit complaining and move on.

 

 


 

 


 


 

(shaking head) When was the last time a losing side didn't spend the whole term trash talking the winning president?
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: economic terrorism??? Disinformation.

And the way the Democrats went after Reagan and Bush.    Why do you think Obama should be given any more or any less scrutiny than Bush has been? 

 


fforgnayr wrote:

That wasn't my point.  My point was that Republicans will go after Obama the way they went aftrer Clinton.  Complete fishing to find anything they can.

 


Everyman wrote:

Billions of dollars and years of investigations over WhiteWater and all they could come up with was him lying about having sex.

 

It was more -- much  more -- than lying about having sex.  It was  a lawyer, and the man in absolute charge of the Justice Department, committing clear and unequivocal perjury.  Lying under oath.  He was disbarred for that, and properly so.  Of course he doesn't care, he's making hundreds of millions of dollars in other ways, but to the legal profession, it was a very big deal, and it should have been a very big deal to anybody who believes in the importance of integrity in our judicial system. 

 


fforgnayr wrote:

if it wasn't the way the campaing was financed it would be something else.  Look what happended to Clinton.  Billions of dollars and years of investigations over WhiteWater and all they could come up with was him lying about having sex.  Jerry Falwell even sold a video tape on his broadcast accusing the Clinton's of murder and drug smuggling. 

 

But if a Democrat complained about Sara Palin's qualifications or her horrible interview skills, we were called sexist and every thing else. 

 

There is a doulbe standard on the right.  They come after us with everything they got but if we dare fight back we are communists, socialists, anti-American, love terrorists and every other stupid thing out there. 

 

They need to get over it, they lost, shut up, quit complaining and move on.

 

 


 

 


 


 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.