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thewanderingjew
Posts: 2,247
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
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Re: sara palin

i think you are right deb. you are an equal opportunity objector and you are not angry but just stating the facts of what you believe. i don't hunt. i have trouble killing bugs. i simply object to selectively objecting to particular forms of behavior based on party politics.
i do not think you or tiggerbear (please don't be angry with me for repeating the terms arrogance and evil, i do so merely as examples) are like that but the terms like arrogance and evil are emotional and cause friction. arrogance and evil are in the eyes of "the beholder".
i don't like wrestling or football or hockey because people want to see bloodshed but i don't think people who enjoy those sports are evil even though there have even been injuries and occasional deaths involved and these are human beings that are getting hurt.

i might feel it is arrogant for someone to tell me i can't have transfats or i have to provide day care for children whose parents work, not because they have to but because they want to so they can have more "things". i am not passing judgment just stating that there are a lot of moral equivalents out there that we have disagreements with and it would be nice if we could all just accept these facts without the anger and politics that goes along with it. perhaps it is irresponsible to shoot endangered animals but evil, i am not sure.

i live on a pond. the pond is in an area of environmental concern. there are shellfish beds here. i cannot have a permanent dock. (although others on the pond do have permanent docks) one of the reasons is that the shellfish are deemed more important than my needs for a dock. so be it. i am sure there could be a way to provide the shellfish protection and also provide me with a permanent dock but that is not worth fighting over, although, it does give some of the homeowners a greater advantage when it comes to the resale value of their real estate. still, i don't call those with docks evil or arrogant even though they are surely impacting the environment negatively, as i would be if i was allowed to put in a permanent dock. perhaps i should advocate for them to remove their docks but wouldn't that be overkill and too much governmental control?
i am told that some of the homes that do have permanent docks, have them because they were either grandfathered in or i have "heard" some had "special contacts" with the "powers that be" in office here, and were able to get them in what i would call a "gray area of approval". the party in power here, has pretty much always been very liberal and will probably always be. they are good at making lots of rules for others, which stay on the books whether or not they serve any real purpose any longer. i know that both parties are guilty of this but where i live, only one is guilty because they have pretty much been the only party in power here.
i could spend my life being angry and fighting it or i could do what i did. i started a trend. i got the first portable dock and now everyone on the pond, who couldn't get one before, has a portable dock. it costs money to store it every year but it has other advantages. the shellfish are not impacted, the pond's integrity is maintained and i don't have repairs to make on it from the winter storms!

twj

TiggerBear wrote: (edited by twj)

...What I have a problem with is her hunting endangered species for nothing but sport....hunting animals close to the point of extintion is one of the purest types of arogance. And well d*mn it, EVIL. This type of behavior shows a great deal what type of person she is.


 


Frequent Contributor
Timbuktu1
Posts: 1,572
Registered: ‎12-31-2007
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Re: sara palin


thewanderingjew wrote:

i think you are right deb. you are an equal opportunity objector and you are not angry but just stating the facts of what you believe. i don't hunt. i have trouble killing bugs. i simply object to selectively objecting to particular forms of behavior based on party politics.
i do not think you or tiggerbear (please don't be angry with me for repeating the terms arrogance and evil, i do so merely as examples) are like that but the terms like arrogance and evil are emotional and cause friction. arrogance and evil are in the eyes of "the beholder".
i don't like wrestling or football or hockey because people want to see bloodshed but i don't think people who enjoy those sports are evil even though there have even been injuries and occasional deaths involved and these are human beings that are getting hurt.

i might feel it is arrogant for someone to tell me i can't have transfats or i have to provide day care for children whose parents work, not because they have to but because they want to so they can have more "things". i am not passing judgment just stating that there are a lot of moral equivalents out there that we have disagreements with and it would be nice if we could all just accept these facts without the anger and politics that goes along with it. perhaps it is irresponsible to shoot endangered animals but evil, i am not sure.

i live on a pond. the pond is in an area of environmental concern. there are shellfish beds here. i cannot have a permanent dock. (although others on the pond do have permanent docks) one of the reasons is that the shellfish are deemed more important than my needs for a dock. so be it. i am sure there could be a way to provide the shellfish protection and also provide me with a permanent dock but that is not worth fighting over, although, it does give some of the homeowners a greater advantage when it comes to the resale value of their real estate. still, i don't call those with docks evil or arrogant even though they are surely impacting the environment negatively, as i would be if i was allowed to put in a permanent dock. perhaps i should advocate for them to remove their docks but wouldn't that be overkill and too much governmental control?
i am told that some of the homes that do have permanent docks, have them because they were either grandfathered in or i have "heard" some had "special contacts" with the "powers that be" in office here, and were able to get them in what i would call a "gray area of approval". the party in power here, has pretty much always been very liberal and will probably always be. they are good at making lots of rules for others, which stay on the books whether or not they serve any real purpose any longer. i know that both parties are guilty of this but where i live, only one is guilty because they have pretty much been the only party in power here.
i could spend my life being angry and fighting it or i could do what i did. i started a trend. i got the first portable dock and now everyone on the pond, who couldn't get one before, has a portable dock. it costs money to store it every year but it has other advantages. the shellfish are not impacted, the pond's integrity is maintained and i don't have repairs to make on it from the winter storms!

twj

TiggerBear wrote: (edited by twj)

...What I have a problem with is her hunting endangered species for nothing but sport....hunting animals close to the point of extintion is one of the purest types of arogance. And well d*mn it, EVIL. This type of behavior shows a great deal what type of person she is.


 




I think that the culture in Alaska is different than the culture in say, New York.  Hunting and fishing are integral parts of their lives.  I would never hunt but I do eat hamburgers.  I have been a vegetarian on and off many times.  My daughter was one for 5 years.  But when you are raised eating meat, a kind of denial sets in.  If I see a cow, I promise I'll never eat them again, but then, old habits die hard.  My Hindu friend, I'm sure, must be horrified that I would eat a cow.  She would never say so, but how could she not?  She said that when she first came to America she bought a cheeseburger at McDonald's thinking it was cheese.  When she realized it was meat she spit it out in disgust.  
  I have never held a gun.  My father, raised in New York, had never held a gun until he went into the coast guard during the war.  He said they handed him a gun and said "take it apart and clean it".  He just stared.  Had no clue as to what to do.  He said the people who won the war were the people from the southern states who had been hunting since they were children.  Sometimes it's hard for me to realize that America is one country, but we all have something to contribute and I can't judge someone who's been hunting since they were a child (her husband is part Eskimo) anymore than I would want to be judged for eating a hamburger, even though I do feel that ideally I would not.

 

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debbook
Posts: 1,823
Registered: ‎05-03-2008
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Re: sara palin

[ Edited ]

I am not talking about eating meat or being a vegetarian( I myself have struggled with that) or even environmental concerns( overpopulation, endangered animals) which are things I do care about, but I understand the complexities of situations.

But hunting specifically, you are looking at a live beautiful animal in  it's natural habitat and then killing it and watching it die. If someone has to do this to feed their family, then I have no right to judge. But it bothers me, the people that do this for enjoyment and then to show off their trophies. I just can't stomach it. I might not use the word evil as there are many people that word is more appropriate for, but I don't respect those that can go out and do such things.

 

twj, It sounds like you found a win-win situation with your dock. I like win-win, too often we have win-lose.


Message Edited by debbook on 09-28-2008 03:40 PM
A room without books is like a body without a soul.~ Cicero...
"bookmagic418.blogspot.com
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Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: sara palin

This shows how far away from our biological roots we have traveled in what is, in evolutionary terms, a tenth of a blink of an eye.  It was only a few hundred years ago, if that, that the vast majority of people in the world had to kill their own food or starve to death.   Supermarkets have within a few decades turned us into an underlying belief that food really does come automatically packaged, clean, healthy, and fussless.


debbook wrote:
Very well said TiggerBear. There is something to be said about a person's character, that they enjoy hunting and killing an animal. It's not a need for meat, it is sport as you say. Regardless of whether the animal is endangered or not, it still bothers me that someone enjoys the act of killing. I didn't like it when Kerry did it, I don't care who the person is, I don't like it.

TiggerBear wrote:

Ok not to upset anyone. But animals and PLANTS feel pain when injured. Just a fact. If you eat, you no mater how far away the act, something was hurt for your meal. Get over it.

 

What I have a problem with is her hunting endangered species for nothing but sport. 

 

Deer are not endangered, nor are ducks, elk, carribo, aligators, squirel, geese, beavers. 

 

Wolves, polar bears, cougars are.

 

Black bear, grislys, goldens are pretty close to be endangered.

 

Hunting animals close to the point of extintion is one of the purest types of arogance. And well d*mn it, EVIL. This type of behavior shows a great deal what type of person she is. 


 


 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: sara palin

I think that the culture in Alaska is different than the culture in say, New York. 

 

That's a very important point.  There are still places in the US where self-reliance is important, where in large part  the food you kill and grow is the food you eat.   Many -- probably most New Yorkers (I used to live there, as did my father, so I can speak from personal knowledge) can barely grow herbs on their miniscule patios or fire escapes.  The idea that you eat by actually growing or raising your food yourself, tending it, caring for it, killing or harvesting it, butchering it, and eating it is totally alien to a New Yorker, where a simple phone call will bring one of dozens of world cuisines to your door. 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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debbook
Posts: 1,823
Registered: ‎05-03-2008
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Re: sara palin

Your comments aren't relevant to what I am talking about, so please don't quote me.

Everyman wrote:

This shows how far away from our biological roots we have traveled in what is, in evolutionary terms, a tenth of a blink of an eye.  It was only a few hundred years ago, if that, that the vast majority of people in the world had to kill their own food or starve to death.   Supermarkets have within a few decades turned us into an underlying belief that food really does come automatically packaged, clean, healthy, and fussless.


debbook wrote:
Very well said TiggerBear. There is something to be said about a person's character, that they enjoy hunting and killing an animal. It's not a need for meat, it is sport as you say. Regardless of whether the animal is endangered or not, it still bothers me that someone enjoys the act of killing. I didn't like it when Kerry did it, I don't care who the person is, I don't like it.

TiggerBear wrote:

Ok not to upset anyone. But animals and PLANTS feel pain when injured. Just a fact. If you eat, you no mater how far away the act, something was hurt for your meal. Get over it.

 

What I have a problem with is her hunting endangered species for nothing but sport. 

 

Deer are not endangered, nor are ducks, elk, carribo, aligators, squirel, geese, beavers. 

 

Wolves, polar bears, cougars are.

 

Black bear, grislys, goldens are pretty close to be endangered.

 

Hunting animals close to the point of extintion is one of the purest types of arogance. And well d*mn it, EVIL. This type of behavior shows a great deal what type of person she is. 


 


 

 


 

A room without books is like a body without a soul.~ Cicero...
"bookmagic418.blogspot.com
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: sara palin

My comments were in line with the general discussion, so I quoted the entire sequence of posts.  If I objected to every post where somebody included one of my posts in a string of posts but didn't respond specifically to the points I had made, I would be doing little else here but objecting.

 

People here are intelligent enough to see how or whether a post does or doesn't relate to what went previously in the process of developing the topic. 


debbook wrote:
Your comments aren't relevant to what I am talking about, so please don't quote me.

Everyman wrote:

This shows how far away from our biological roots we have traveled in what is, in evolutionary terms, a tenth of a blink of an eye.  It was only a few hundred years ago, if that, that the vast majority of people in the world had to kill their own food or starve to death.   Supermarkets have within a few decades turned us into an underlying belief that food really does come automatically packaged, clean, healthy, and fussless.


debbook wrote:
Very well said TiggerBear. There is something to be said about a person's character, that they enjoy hunting and killing an animal. It's not a need for meat, it is sport as you say. Regardless of whether the animal is endangered or not, it still bothers me that someone enjoys the act of killing. I didn't like it when Kerry did it, I don't care who the person is, I don't like it.

TiggerBear wrote:

Ok not to upset anyone. But animals and PLANTS feel pain when injured. Just a fact. If you eat, you no mater how far away the act, something was hurt for your meal. Get over it.

 

What I have a problem with is her hunting endangered species for nothing but sport. 

 

Deer are not endangered, nor are ducks, elk, carribo, aligators, squirel, geese, beavers. 

 

Wolves, polar bears, cougars are.

 

Black bear, grislys, goldens are pretty close to be endangered.

 

Hunting animals close to the point of extintion is one of the purest types of arogance. And well d*mn it, EVIL. This type of behavior shows a great deal what type of person she is. 


 


 

 


 


 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Bibliophile
TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: sara palin



thewanderingjew wrote:

i think you are right deb. you are an equal opportunity objector and you are not angry but just stating the facts of what you believe. i don't hunt. i have trouble killing bugs. i simply object to selectively objecting to particular forms of behavior based on party politics.
i do not think you or tiggerbear (please don't be angry with me for repeating the terms arrogance and evil, i do so merely as examples) are like that but the terms like arrogance and evil are emotional and cause friction. arrogance and evil are in the eyes of "the beholder".
i don't like wrestling or football or hockey because people want to see bloodshed but i don't think people who enjoy those sports are evil even though there have even been injuries and occasional deaths involved and these are human beings that are getting hurt.

i might feel it is arrogant for someone to tell me i can't have transfats or i have to provide day care for children whose parents work, not because they have to but because they want to so they can have more "things". i am not passing judgment just stating that there are a lot of moral equivalents out there that we have disagreements with and it would be nice if we could all just accept these facts without the anger and politics that goes along with it. perhaps it is irresponsible to shoot endangered animals but evil, i am not sure.



TiggerBear wrote: (edited by twj)

...What I have a problem with is her hunting endangered species for nothing but sport....hunting animals close to the point of extintion is one of the purest types of arogance. And well d*mn it, EVIL. This type of behavior shows a great deal what type of person she is.


 




I think that the culture in Alaska is different than the culture in say, New York.  Hunting and fishing are integral parts of their lives.  I would never hunt but I do eat hamburgers.  I have been a vegetarian on and off many times.  My daughter was one for 5 years.  But when you are raised eating meat, a kind of denial sets in.  If I see a cow, I promise I'll never eat them again, but then, old habits die hard.  My Hindu friend, I'm sure, must be horrified that I would eat a cow.  She would never say so, but how could she not?  She said that when she first came to America she bought a cheeseburger at McDonald's thinking it was cheese.  When she realized it was meat she spit it out in disgust.  
  I have never held a gun.  My father, raised in New York, had never held a gun until he went into the coast guard during the war.  He said they handed him a gun and said "take it apart and clean it".  He just stared.  Had no clue as to what to do.  He said the people who won the war were the people from the southern states who had been hunting since they were children.  Sometimes it's hard for me to realize that America is one country, but we all have something to contribute and I can't judge someone who's been hunting since they were a child (her husband is part Eskimo) anymore than I would want to be judged for eating a hamburger, even though I do feel that ideally I would not.

 


(sigh)  Allow me to state this clearly. 

Hunting for food, so long as the animal is not endangerd species is aceptable behavior. Hunting as a sport, but making sure that the carcus is eaten (you, friends, a food bank, ect...) so long as the animal is not endangerd is an aceptable behavior. Hunting for trophey sport alone is unexceptable, it's wasteful. Hunting an endangered species for trophey sport alone IS just plain so far beyond aceptable it's evil. 

 

This has nothing to do with what state you live in. 

 

There are plenty of unendangered animals in Alaska she could have hunted. She chose the showy endangerd animals deliberately.

If she had been hunting, and encountered a polar bear, felt so endangerd that she had no choice but to shoot the animal for self preservation.Then if she made sure the carcus went to a hungry family or something. That I could understand, I wouldn't like it, but I could understand it.

Instead there are over 30 photos, with over 30 different dead polar bears and her grinning like an idiot, standing on top of the bloody animal. That in no way could possibly be anything other than the deliberate hunting of an endangered species for trophys.  This I have a problem with.

Frequent Contributor
Timbuktu1
Posts: 1,572
Registered: ‎12-31-2007
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Re: sara palin


TiggerBear wrote:


thewanderingjew wrote:

i think you are right deb. you are an equal opportunity objector and you are not angry but just stating the facts of what you believe. i don't hunt. i have trouble killing bugs. i simply object to selectively objecting to particular forms of behavior based on party politics.
i do not think you or tiggerbear (please don't be angry with me for repeating the terms arrogance and evil, i do so merely as examples) are like that but the terms like arrogance and evil are emotional and cause friction. arrogance and evil are in the eyes of "the beholder".
i don't like wrestling or football or hockey because people want to see bloodshed but i don't think people who enjoy those sports are evil even though there have even been injuries and occasional deaths involved and these are human beings that are getting hurt.

i might feel it is arrogant for someone to tell me i can't have transfats or i have to provide day care for children whose parents work, not because they have to but because they want to so they can have more "things". i am not passing judgment just stating that there are a lot of moral equivalents out there that we have disagreements with and it would be nice if we could all just accept these facts without the anger and politics that goes along with it. perhaps it is irresponsible to shoot endangered animals but evil, i am not sure.



TiggerBear wrote: (edited by twj)

...What I have a problem with is her hunting endangered species for nothing but sport....hunting animals close to the point of extintion is one of the purest types of arogance. And well d*mn it, EVIL. This type of behavior shows a great deal what type of person she is.


 




I think that the culture in Alaska is different than the culture in say, New York.  Hunting and fishing are integral parts of their lives.  I would never hunt but I do eat hamburgers.  I have been a vegetarian on and off many times.  My daughter was one for 5 years.  But when you are raised eating meat, a kind of denial sets in.  If I see a cow, I promise I'll never eat them again, but then, old habits die hard.  My Hindu friend, I'm sure, must be horrified that I would eat a cow.  She would never say so, but how could she not?  She said that when she first came to America she bought a cheeseburger at McDonald's thinking it was cheese.  When she realized it was meat she spit it out in disgust.  
  I have never held a gun.  My father, raised in New York, had never held a gun until he went into the coast guard during the war.  He said they handed him a gun and said "take it apart and clean it".  He just stared.  Had no clue as to what to do.  He said the people who won the war were the people from the southern states who had been hunting since they were children.  Sometimes it's hard for me to realize that America is one country, but we all have something to contribute and I can't judge someone who's been hunting since they were a child (her husband is part Eskimo) anymore than I would want to be judged for eating a hamburger, even though I do feel that ideally I would not.

 


(sigh)  Allow me to state this clearly. 

Hunting for food, so long as the animal is not endangerd species is aceptable behavior. Hunting as a sport, but making sure that the carcus is eaten (you, friends, a food bank, ect...) so long as the animal is not endangerd is an aceptable behavior. Hunting for trophey sport alone is unexceptable, it's wasteful. Hunting an endangered species for trophey sport alone IS just plain so far beyond aceptable it's evil. 

 

This has nothing to do with what state you live in. 

 

There are plenty of unendangered animals in Alaska she could have hunted. She chose the showy endangerd animals deliberately.

If she had been hunting, and encountered a polar bear, felt so endangerd that she had no choice but to shoot the animal for self preservation.Then if she made sure the carcus went to a hungry family or something. That I could understand, I wouldn't like it, but I could understand it.

Instead there are over 30 photos, with over 30 different dead polar bears and her grinning like an idiot, standing on top of the bloody animal. That in no way could possibly be anything other than the deliberate hunting of an endangered species for trophys.  This I have a problem with.



I guess we all have a different POV.   As for me, I could never hunt.  Anything.  Hunting is against Jewish Law btw.  

 

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Jon_B
Posts: 1,893
Registered: ‎07-15-2008
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Re: sara palin

[ Edited ]

Timbuktu1 wrote:

I guess we all have a different POV.   As for me, I could never hunt.  Anything.  Hunting is against Jewish Law btw.  

 


 

You are referring to hunting for sport, right?  I don't think hunting for food is prohibited by Jewish law, only hunting "wantonly".

 

Although I suppose in our modern world, since we don't actually need to hunt in order to survive these days, even hunting for food might be considered unnecessary cruelty to animals - in the sense that hunting is no longer necessary.   But still I've never heard that there is a prohibition on hunting entirely - only a prohibition on hunting for the sake of hunting.  

 

 

 

 

 

Message Edited by Jon_B on 09-29-2008 06:19 AM
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Timbuktu1
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Registered: ‎12-31-2007
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Re: sara palin


Jon_B wrote:

Timbuktu1 wrote:

I guess we all have a different POV.   As for me, I could never hunt.  Anything.  Hunting is against Jewish Law btw.  

 


 

You are referring to hunting for sport, right?  I don't think hunting for food is prohibited by Jewish law, only hunting "wantonly".

 

Although I suppose in our modern world, since we don't actually need to hunt in order to survive these days, even hunting for food might be considered unnecessary cruelty to animals - in the sense that hunting is no longer necessary.   But still I've never heard that there is a prohibition on hunting entirely - only a prohibition on hunting for the sake of hunting.  

 

 

 

 

 

Message Edited by Jon_B on 09-29-2008 06:19 AM


It was my understanding that kosher meat can only be killed by a ritual butcher.  The idea behind it is that man has a weakness and wants to eat meat but the meat must be killed in the most humane way possible.  The knife has to be extremely sharp, the throat must be slit quickly and the blood drained.  The animal has to be cheked out to be healthy.  Hunting would make this impossible.  

 

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Timbuktu1
Posts: 1,572
Registered: ‎12-31-2007
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Re: sara palin


Timbuktu1 wrote:

Jon_B wrote:

Timbuktu1 wrote:

I guess we all have a different POV.   As for me, I could never hunt.  Anything.  Hunting is against Jewish Law btw.  

 


 

You are referring to hunting for sport, right?  I don't think hunting for food is prohibited by Jewish law, only hunting "wantonly".

 

Although I suppose in our modern world, since we don't actually need to hunt in order to survive these days, even hunting for food might be considered unnecessary cruelty to animals - in the sense that hunting is no longer necessary.   But still I've never heard that there is a prohibition on hunting entirely - only a prohibition on hunting for the sake of hunting.  

 

 

 

 

 

Message Edited by Jon_B on 09-29-2008 06:19 AM


It was my understanding that kosher meat can only be killed by a ritual butcher.  The idea behind it is that man has a weakness and wants to eat meat but the meat must be killed in the most humane way possible.  The knife has to be extremely sharp, the throat must be slit quickly and the blood drained.  The animal has to be cheked out to be healthy.  Hunting would make this impossible.  

 



Jon, you were right!  I have to learn to check my facts.  

 

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Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: sara palin

Hunting for trophey sport alone is unexceptable, it's wasteful.

 

I don't hunt, never have, never will.  But nor do I criticize those who do; they are entitled to their own forms of recreation.  (And in many cases hunters are much more pragmatic and devoted environmentalists than people sitting around in the cafes of New York City or Los Angeles or San Francisco thinking they know more about protecting the environment than those who are actually out in it.)

 

Most forms of human recreation are wasteful.   And most of them are damaging to the environment.  If you decide not to stay home, but decide to drive into town to go see a play or a movie or attend a book club meeting, some people would think that you've wasted gas and added unnecessarily to the pollution of the planet.  Going on vacation, whether you drive, fly, take a bus, or whtever, or even driving over to visit friends or relatives, wastes energy and adds to the pollution of our environment, making the air I have to breathe dirtier.   But I don't ask you to stop doing it.  

 

Even writing posts on BN is wasteful of energy not only in running all our thousands of individual computers but also in the large amount of energy needed to keep the BN servers running and, indeed, the whole Internet running.  Since much of the electricity for that is generated by burning coal or oil, it's wasteful and polluting.  But I do it, and you do it, and we don't care that it wastes natural resources. 

 

Each us probably thinks that at least some of the recreations of others are unacceptable in some way or other and wasteful.  And they are.  That's the nature of being human instead of pure animal.  

 

At least the trophy animals,those that aren't endangered, are self-reproducing.  (And even of many endangered species, killing some of the males, who constitute almost all of the trophy animals, usually does not interfere with their survival as a species.)  But when we burn oil or coal to power our computers, it's gone forever.  We have used that energy and it will not come back for millions of years, until our own bodies are decomposed into pools of oil.  So in the end, which is really the more wasteful activity?

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: sara palin


Everyman wrote:

Hunting for trophey sport alone is unexceptable, it's wasteful.

 

I don't hunt, never have, never will.  But nor do I criticize those who do; they are entitled to their own forms of recreation.  (And in many cases hunters are much more pragmatic and devoted environmentalists than people sitting around in the cafes of New York City or Los Angeles or San Francisco thinking they know more about protecting the environment than those who are actually out in it.)

 

Most forms of human recreation are wasteful.   And most of them are damaging to the environment.  If you decide not to stay home, but decide to drive into town to go see a play or a movie or attend a book club meeting, some people would think that you've wasted gas and added unnecessarily to the pollution of the planet.  Going on vacation, whether you drive, fly, take a bus, or whtever, or even driving over to visit friends or relatives, wastes energy and adds to the pollution of our environment, making the air I have to breathe dirtier.   But I don't ask you to stop doing it.  

 

Even writing posts on BN is wasteful of energy not only in running all our thousands of individual computers but also in the large amount of energy needed to keep the BN servers running and, indeed, the whole Internet running.  Since much of the electricity for that is generated by burning coal or oil, it's wasteful and polluting.  But I do it, and you do it, and we don't care that it wastes natural resources. 

 

Each us probably thinks that at least some of the recreations of others are unacceptable in some way or other and wasteful.  And they are.  That's the nature of being human instead of pure animal.  

 

At least the trophy animals,those that aren't endangered, are self-reproducing.  (And even of many endangered species, killing some of the males, who constitute almost all of the trophy animals, usually does not interfere with their survival as a species.)  But when we burn oil or coal to power our computers, it's gone forever.  We have used that energy and it will not come back for millions of years, until our own bodies are decomposed into pools of oil.  So in the end, which is really the more wasteful activity?


  Sorry you miss understanded me, when I said wasteful I meant waste of LIFE.

 

And check out your power suplier, most use natural gas as fuel. We make natural gas off of decomposing landfills nowadays. It's a Renuable Reasource.

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Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: sara palin

  Sorry you miss understanded me, when I said wasteful I meant waste of LIFE.

 

That's one way to look at it, certainly.  But so is killing spiders and cockroaches.  We make a difference, of course, because of a variety of reasons, but killing bears and killing cockroaches are both killing life. 

 

We excuse the killing we personally approve of, and don't excuse the killling we personally disapprove of.  But it's all killing.  

 

 We make natural gas off of decomposing landfills nowadays. It's a Renuable Reasource.

 

Very, very little of it.  The vast majority of what we use is from drilling.  

 

Actually, much of the electricity I use is from hydro, which indeed is a renewable resource but has other negative environmental impacts.  But that's not an issue for here. 


TiggerBear wrote:

Everyman wrote:

Hunting for trophey sport alone is unexceptable, it's wasteful.

 

I don't hunt, never have, never will.  But nor do I criticize those who do; they are entitled to their own forms of recreation.  (And in many cases hunters are much more pragmatic and devoted environmentalists than people sitting around in the cafes of New York City or Los Angeles or San Francisco thinking they know more about protecting the environment than those who are actually out in it.)

 

Most forms of human recreation are wasteful.   And most of them are damaging to the environment.  If you decide not to stay home, but decide to drive into town to go see a play or a movie or attend a book club meeting, some people would think that you've wasted gas and added unnecessarily to the pollution of the planet.  Going on vacation, whether you drive, fly, take a bus, or whtever, or even driving over to visit friends or relatives, wastes energy and adds to the pollution of our environment, making the air I have to breathe dirtier.   But I don't ask you to stop doing it.  

 

Even writing posts on BN is wasteful of energy not only in running all our thousands of individual computers but also in the large amount of energy needed to keep the BN servers running and, indeed, the whole Internet running.  Since much of the electricity for that is generated by burning coal or oil, it's wasteful and polluting.  But I do it, and you do it, and we don't care that it wastes natural resources. 

 

Each us probably thinks that at least some of the recreations of others are unacceptable in some way or other and wasteful.  And they are.  That's the nature of being human instead of pure animal.  

 

At least the trophy animals,those that aren't endangered, are self-reproducing.  (And even of many endangered species, killing some of the males, who constitute almost all of the trophy animals, usually does not interfere with their survival as a species.)  But when we burn oil or coal to power our computers, it's gone forever.  We have used that energy and it will not come back for millions of years, until our own bodies are decomposed into pools of oil.  So in the end, which is really the more wasteful activity?


  Sorry you miss understanded me, when I said wasteful I meant waste of LIFE.

 

And check out your power suplier, most use natural gas as fuel. We make natural gas off of decomposing landfills nowadays. It's a Renuable Reasource.


 

 

_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: sara palin

They are finding that natural gas is easier and cheeper when we make it. You're going to see less drilling for it. And of note, a lot of natural gas drilling is a result of other extractions. They have to drain off the gas to get at the iron, oil, coal, ect..
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mwinasu
Posts: 149
Registered: ‎02-02-2008
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Re: sara palin

O.K.  I live seven miles outside of Wasilla Ak.  I know Sara but we are not friends.  I also watch the news and read the paper, so I think I may be able to say something here.  The people of Alaska have voted to ban  aerial hunting twice in the past ten years I think.  But the legislature will not follow our advice because Gun lobbists, and wealthy hunting enthusists ,and guides and outfitters have more money and therefore more control of our state than we do.  After all, if you want to see a senator you have to fly into Juneau. Only Alaska airline is allowed to fly in. And during the Legislative session the ability to book a flight determines whether you get to see your guy or not.  The issue of aerial hunting is back on the ballot this year for the third time, but however the vote goes, nothing will happen.

 

Sara does not hate polar bears.  But she has some pretty freaky ideas about science and "The Lord ".  She and her cohorts have filed a lawsuit to keep the Polar Bear off the endangered species list because they do not believe that humans are responsible for climate change.  In their minds , the extinction of the polar bears is simply the will of God.  They reject any scientific claims to the contrary.

 

And lastly,  many people  here in Alaska  live a subsistance lifestyle.  They hunt and fish and trap and practice crafts that have been handed down for generations to feed their children.  There are no supermarkets in the village.  There are no Pizza Huts or Mc Donalds and a single tomato can cost $7.00 in the village store.  Many villagers do not have running water in their homes because there is no water system. The natives come to town and sell their goods every year.  It allows them to purchase things that they can't get at home.  And so I have a walrus skull mount and masks and a strip of Baleen on my wall.  I have the tags that show that they were legally made by natives.  I guess I am trying to say that you shouldn't judge too harshly.  However, Todd Palin works for an oil company and makes good money and lives in Wasilla where we now have five Grocery stores.  He  is not living the subsistance lifestyle. Well. maybe he is ,but only when it is fun.


TiggerBear wrote:


thewanderingjew wrote:
do you remember john kerry and his famous hunting picture? perhaps what he killed was not as objectionable.
is it because she is a woman or is it just because she is a republican that makes people (even other women), feel that it can be open season with no restraint on the types of insults and accusations hurled her way, some without any proof and actually some have been oft repeated although they have been oft refuted.
geraldine ferraro was treated abominably so many years ago one would have thought we would have made more progress. where are the women who demand equal rights for women right now? do only some women deserve respect?
please, don't say everyone does it...it is a convenient excuse but it doesn't make it right. i don't hear the same type of insults or the same frequency of insults coming from the other side. if you do, let me know and i will be the first to say it is wrong. it is wrong for both sides to behave that way.
between the media and hollywood with all their bully pulpits out there, she doesn't stand much of a chance, does she?
sandra bernhard's comments were contemptible! i wonder if any of you who are objecting to sarah palin on all sorts of grounds, are also objecting to sandra bernhard for her behavior or do you still find her entertaining? i realize she isn't running for public office but she is running for your following. it is quite a double standard out there.
twj

TiggerBear wrote:

unicornucopia wrote:

Sarah Palin hates wolves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQobIUE1zTU. Since she was announced McCain's running-mate, I've had an inbox full of emails from every environmental and animal rights organization there is telling me that she hates wolves. She also hates polar bears. And come on, who hates polar bears? Don't we remember those computer animated holiday Coca Cola commercials? Polar bears are adorable.


Just goggle her for photos. Lots and lots of picture of her standing over a dead bloody polar bear, she just shot. Does she have no idea how slowly they reproduce?! Polar bears and tundra wolves are both on the nedangered species list. Talk about iresponceable.


What she killed! Kerry; a deer who was later eaten. And a species which is now so numerous that game wardens are seriously discussing culling to help the species. I have no problem. A wolf endangered, polar bear endangered; shot, tropheyed, the carcus left to rot. Male or female, if you did that I'd have a problem with you.

 

It's not that she hunts, it's what she hunts and the type of hunting she does.

Message Edited by TiggerBear on 09-27-2008 02:54 AM

 

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TiggerBear
Posts: 9,489
Registered: ‎02-12-2008
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Re: sara palin


mwinasu wrote:

O.K.  I live seven miles outside of Wasilla Ak.  I know Sara but we are not friends.  I also watch the news and read the paper, so I think I may be able to say something here.  The people of Alaska have voted to ban  aerial hunting twice in the past ten years I think.  But the legislature will not follow our advice because Gun lobbists, and wealthy hunting enthusists ,and guides and outfitters have more money and therefore more control of our state than we do.  After all, if you want to see a senator you have to fly into Juneau. Only Alaska airline is allowed to fly in. And during the Legislative session the ability to book a flight determines whether you get to see your guy or not.  The issue of aerial hunting is back on the ballot this year for the third time, but however the vote goes, nothing will happen.

 

Sara does not hate polar bears.  But she has some pretty freaky ideas about science and "The Lord ".  She and her cohorts have filed a lawsuit to keep the Polar Bear off the endangered species list because they do not believe that humans are responsible for climate change.  In their minds , the extinction of the polar bears is simply the will of God.  They reject any scientific claims to the contrary.

 

And lastly,  many people  here in Alaska  live a subsistance lifestyle.  They hunt and fish and trap and practice crafts that have been handed down for generations to feed their children.  There are no supermarkets in the village.  There are no Pizza Huts or Mc Donalds and a single tomato can cost $7.00 in the village store.  Many villagers do not have running water in their homes because there is no water system. The natives come to town and sell their goods every year.  It allows them to purchase things that they can't get at home.  And so I have a walrus skull mount and masks and a strip of Baleen on my wall.  I have the tags that show that they were legally made by natives.  I guess I am trying to say that you shouldn't judge too harshly.  However, Todd Palin works for an oil company and makes good money and lives in Wasilla where we now have five Grocery stores.  He  is not living the subsistance lifestyle. Well. maybe he is ,but only when it is fun.


TiggerBear wrote:


thewanderingjew wrote:
do you remember john kerry and his famous hunting picture? perhaps what he killed was not as objectionable.
is it because she is a woman or is it just because she is a republican that makes people (even other women), feel that it can be open season with no restraint on the types of insults and accusations hurled her way, some without any proof and actually some have been oft repeated although they have been oft refuted.
geraldine ferraro was treated abominably so many years ago one would have thought we would have made more progress. where are the women who demand equal rights for women right now? do only some women deserve respect?
please, don't say everyone does it...it is a convenient excuse but it doesn't make it right. i don't hear the same type of insults or the same frequency of insults coming from the other side. if you do, let me know and i will be the first to say it is wrong. it is wrong for both sides to behave that way.
between the media and hollywood with all their bully pulpits out there, she doesn't stand much of a chance, does she?
sandra bernhard's comments were contemptible! i wonder if any of you who are objecting to sarah palin on all sorts of grounds, are also objecting to sandra bernhard for her behavior or do you still find her entertaining? i realize she isn't running for public office but she is running for your following. it is quite a double standard out there.
twj

TiggerBear wrote:

unicornucopia wrote:

Sarah Palin hates wolves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQobIUE1zTU. Since she was announced McCain's running-mate, I've had an inbox full of emails from every environmental and animal rights organization there is telling me that she hates wolves. She also hates polar bears. And come on, who hates polar bears? Don't we remember those computer animated holiday Coca Cola commercials? Polar bears are adorable.


Just goggle her for photos. Lots and lots of picture of her standing over a dead bloody polar bear, she just shot. Does she have no idea how slowly they reproduce?! Polar bears and tundra wolves are both on the nedangered species list. Talk about iresponceable.


What she killed! Kerry; a deer who was later eaten. And a species which is now so numerous that game wardens are seriously discussing culling to help the species. I have no problem. A wolf endangered, polar bear endangered; shot, tropheyed, the carcus left to rot. Male or female, if you did that I'd have a problem with you.

 

It's not that she hunts, it's what she hunts and the type of hunting she does.

Message Edited by TiggerBear on 09-27-2008 02:54 AM

 


Like I said IF it was nessisary for survival and then animal carcus was used. I wouldn't have a problem with it. In no way is sport hunting nessisary for survival.

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unicornucopia
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎09-25-2008
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Re: sara palin

For the record, since I started in on the "Sarah Palin hates wolves" line of discussion, I am a vegetarian.  I am opposed to eating meat; I am opposed to hunting any animal for any reason. 

 

A) We now have knowledge enough to know alternate sources of the essential nutrients meat would normally give us--eat some raisins instead of that hamburger, hombre.  Eating meat is no longer necessary to our health.  Now, I may be coming off strong here but the truth is I don't usually lecture people in my everyday life for eating meat.  I just made a personal choice--if it's not necessary, I don't have to do it.  It's one tiny moral stand I can make in my day-to-day life.  I wouldn't be able to kill an animal, so why should I participate in eating animals just because I personally don't have to witness the carnage? 

 

B) Hunting for sport is disgusting.  That would be like saying, "Oh yeah, totally knocked some kids down at the playground this weekend.  It's something I used to do recreationally with my dad, you know.  Family sport."  Where does one even draw the line between shooting animals "for sport" and torturing animals "for sport"?  Or shooting people "for sport".  I realize, for all you philosophy students, that argument is flawed.  But the overall idea of destroying a living creature for pleasure is flawed.

 

C) I don't want my vice president to be a person who destroys living creatures for pleasure.  I don't want a vice president who ignores the endangerment of animals so she can have a trophy.  I don't want a vice president who ignores the endangerment of our environment so she can have more revenue.  I'd like my vice president to be just a little more foward-thinking than that.  She suffers from "me me me" tunnel vision, though clearly she's not the one suffering at all; she just inflicts suffering. 

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thewanderingjew
Posts: 2,247
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
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Re: sara palin

ok, i am not a fan of hunting either, but how do you feel about vice presidents who plagiarize?
unicornucopia wrote: (edited by twj)

.....C) I don't want my vice president to be a person who destroys living creatures for pleasure.  I don't want a vice president who ignores the endangerment of animals so she can have a trophy.  I don't want a vice president who ignores the endangerment of our environment so she can have more revenue.  I'd like my vice president to be just a little more foward-thinking than that.  She suffers from "me me me" tunnel vision, though clearly she's not the one suffering at all; she just inflicts suffering.