Whole Book Discussion: Forgiving Judith [ Edited ]

[Stephanie]

Miriam judges people based on Judith- any woman who would have a relationship with a married man is a "Judith" to her. She's completely strict on this point, even gives up income for it (turns away a prospective tenant).

Then she sleeps with Manny, and finds out he's still involved with his wife. She is overwhelmed with guilt and self-loathing over this:

I was no better than Judith.
...When I saw so vividly that the thing I hated most about Judith was present in myself, I was filled with nausea and violent self-loathing. I did not know if there was a thing in the world I could do to make myself better except to forgive Judith and ask her to forgive me for judging her so harshly. Could I do that? I did not know if I could. pp 256-7

Group: Do you think Miriam has a clearer understanding of Judith, since she is "in her shoes" so to speak? Do you think it's necessary for her to forgive Judith in order to forgive herself? Finally, is what Miriam did "as bad as" what Judith did?

Message Edited by Stephanie on 07-16-2007 10:58 PM

[kiakar]

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Stephanie wrote:
Miriam judges people based on Judith- any woman who would have a relationship with a married man is a "Judith" to her. She's completely strict on this point, even gives up income for it (turns away a prospective tenant).

Then she sleeps with Manny, and finds out he's still involved with his wife. She is overwhelmed with guilt and self-loathing over this:

I was no better than Judith.
...When I saw so vividly that the thing I hated most about Judith was present in myself, I was filled with nausea and violent self-loathing. I did not know if there was a thing in the world I could do to make myself better except to forgive Judith and ask her to forgive me for judging her so harshly. Could I do that? I did not know if I could. pp 256-7

Group: Do you think Miriam has a clearer understanding of Judith, since she is "in her shoes" so to speak? Do you think it's necessary for her to forgive Judith in order to forgive herself? Finally, is what Miriam did "as bad as" what Judith did?

Message Edited by Stephanie on 07-16-2007 10:58 PM

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Did Judith know that Charles was married? That is the question in my book. It didnt seem that Miriam knew he was. So I guess this is alittle imbalanced to say either was totally wrong. They both were I guess. Miriam didn't check Manny out very well.

[vivico1]

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Stephanie wrote:
Miriam judges people based on Judith- any woman who would have a relationship with a married man is a "Judith" to her. She's completely strict on this point, even gives up income for it (turns away a prospective tenant).

Then she sleeps with Manny, and finds out he's still involved with his wife. She is overwhelmed with guilt and self-loathing over this:

I was no better than Judith.
...When I saw so vividly that the thing I hated most about Judith was present in myself, I was filled with nausea and violent self-loathing. I did not know if there was a thing in the world I could do to make myself better except to forgive Judith and ask her to forgive me for judging her so harshly. Could I do that? I did not know if I could. pp 256-7

Group: Do you think Miriam has a clearer understanding of Judith, since she is "in her shoes" so to speak? Do you think it's necessary for her to forgive Judith in order to forgive herself? Finally, is what Miriam did "as bad as" what Judith did?

Message Edited by Stephanie on 07-16-2007 10:58 PM

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I don't think I will get into the comparing guilt game about them. We all have things we have to evaluate about ourselves and be more careful about judging others. I would say this to Miriam, all that time that all she did was stay mad at Judith and think about her and blame her....staying angry at someone is just allowing that person to live in your head rent free!

[kiakar]

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vivico1 wrote:

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Stephanie wrote:
Miriam judges people based on Judith- any woman who would have a relationship with a married man is a "Judith" to her. She's completely strict on this point, even gives up income for it (turns away a prospective tenant).

Then she sleeps with Manny, and finds out he's still involved with his wife. She is overwhelmed with guilt and self-loathing over this:

I was no better than Judith.
...When I saw so vividly that the thing I hated most about Judith was present in myself, I was filled with nausea and violent self-loathing. I did not know if there was a thing in the world I could do to make myself better except to forgive Judith and ask her to forgive me for judging her so harshly. Could I do that? I did not know if I could. pp 256-7

Group: Do you think Miriam has a clearer understanding of Judith, since she is "in her shoes" so to speak? Do you think it's necessary for her to forgive Judith in order to forgive herself? Finally, is what Miriam did "as bad as" what Judith did?

Message Edited by Stephanie on 07-16-2007 10:58 PM

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I don't think I will get into the comparing guilt game about them. We all have things we have to evaluate about ourselves and be more careful about judging others. I would say this to Miriam, all that time that all she did was stay mad at Judith and think about her and blame her....staying angry at someone is just allowing that person to live in your head rent free!

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Also Viv, she finds out that she is not Miss fine and perfect either; I guess that is the reason I love this book. It doesn't happen much in realife, but people coming full circle before they go to heaven is the greatest gift of all.

[LizzieAnn]

I think Miriam is way too hard on herself in this. She doesn't know Manny is married. He does though & isn't truthful with her. His actions cause her to be his "victim" (or patsy or whatever word is the best fit), and I think that's what really bothers her. It's probably similiar to the feelings she had when she learned about Charles & Judith - being made a fool of.

I don't think she needs to forgive Judith to forgive herself. Judith probably knew that Charles was married (Chapter 19 causes me to believe this) so the situations are different. Miriam pretty well understands Judith already - the other woman/homewrecker persona. I don't think any wife would be understanding or accepting of such an individual. And no, what Miriam did in her innocence is not "as bad" as what Judith did.

However, I think Miriam should send Judith a case of champagne. She did Miriam a favor by taking Charles away. Miriam will have a much happier and joyful life than she would have had if she & Charles had stay together. That's just my opinion.

[Stephanie]

Liz,

I agree - Judith did do Marianne a great big favor- she'd have been in that rut with Charles forever. Sometimes, when one heavy steel door with bars on it closes, another door with a stained glass window and sunshine streaming through it opens!

[kiakar]

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Stephanie wrote:
Liz,

I agree - Judith did do Marianne a great big favor- she'd have been in that rut with Charles forever. Sometimes, when one heavy steel door with bars on it closes, another door with a stained glass window and sunshine streaming through it opens!

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Hey Stephanie;

Its true sometimes you can't stand the pain of something happening to you but then if you wait most of the time you can see it was for the best.

[vivico1]

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Stephanie wrote:
Liz,

I agree - Judith did do Marianne a great big favor- she'd have been in that rut with Charles forever. Sometimes, when one heavy steel door with bars on it closes, another door with a stained glass window and sunshine streaming through it opens!

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Whose Marianne? I had to pass my copy of the book on already. But I did finish it a few days after I got it anyway

[KathyS]

Stephanie, your analogy just gave me goosebumps. (not kidding) What beautiful thoughts you just painted for me.

K.

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Stephanie wrote:
Liz,

I agree - Judith did do Marianne a great big favor- she'd have been in that rut with Charles forever. Sometimes, when one heavy steel door with bars on it closes, another door with a stained glass window and sunshine streaming through it opens!

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[dotfrank]

um, who is this MArianne person of whom you speak????

[vivico1]

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dotfrank wrote:
um, who is this MArianne person of whom you speak????

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So I didn't just lose a character from the book huh? Wasnt just me? lol Steph? getting someone from another club you are a moderator for mixed in here? lol. jk

[KathyS]

Dot,

MIRIAM/MELLIE, aka Marianne! (if it starts with an M, it must be the Main character that we all know and love! Or it could be Marjorie Main! Gads, that dates me!

....Stephanie caught the same bug I had....it's called brain flatulence...except mine started with B...Blueberries, Blackberries...or B***S***

K.

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dotfrank wrote:
um, who is this MArianne person of whom you speak????

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[Wrighty]

I think I have to agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far. In my opinion Miriam didn't do the same thing that Judith did because she didn't know that Manny was still involved. As soon as she knew it was definitely over. Judith knew and she helped end a marriage (or two). She did do Miriam a favor but she didn't know it at the time. Judith is very selfish and doesn't care about the consequences of her actions. It's all about Judith. I think for Miriam to forgive her it just frees Miriam. She doesn't have to condone Judith's actions she just have to give them up and unload the pain and anger. We've talked about that in a couple different book clubs. That's not an easy thing to do. There are people in my life that I haven't quite forgiven but I have tried to let the pain go. They don't get to have that power over me anymore. Like Viv said, they got to live in my head rent free. The emotions do come up sometimes because they still pull a selfish stunt from time to time but I have evicted them from my head. That was the whole point of "divorcing" them from our lives in the first place. I also think that people who treat others so poorly will get what they deserve. What goes around comes around. I like my life and Mellie does too now. Judith and Charles will never have the happiness she has discovered. They don't give it so they can't receive it.

[Stephanie]

Whoops, I think I had someone else on my mind.

Miriam! A name that I love, incidentally, and the name of a great childhood friend.

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vivico1 wrote:

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Stephanie wrote:
Liz,

I agree - Judith did do Marianne a great big favor- she'd have been in that rut with Charles forever. Sometimes, when one heavy steel door with bars on it closes, another door with a stained glass window and sunshine streaming through it opens!

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Whose Marianne? I had to pass my copy of the book on already. But I did finish it a few days after I got it anyway

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[kiakar]

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Wrighty wrote:
I think I have to agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far. In my opinion Miriam didn't do the same thing that Judith did because she didn't know that Manny was still involved. As soon as she knew it was definitely over. Judith knew and she helped end a marriage (or two). She did do Miriam a favor but she didn't know it at the time. Judith is very selfish and doesn't care about the consequences of her actions. It's all about Judith. I think for Miriam to forgive her it just frees Miriam. She doesn't have to condone Judith's actions she just have to give them up and unload the pain and anger. We've talked about that in a couple different book clubs. That's not an easy thing to do. There are people in my life that I haven't quite forgiven but I have tried to let the pain go. They don't get to have that power over me anymore. Like Viv said, they got to live in my head rent free. The emotions do come up sometimes because they still pull a selfish stunt from time to time but I have evicted them from my head. That was the whole point of "divorcing" them from our lives in the first place. I also think that people who treat others so poorly will get what they deserve. What goes around comes around. I like my life and Mellie does too now. Judith and Charles will never have the happiness she has discovered. They don't give it so they can't receive it.

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Wrighty: You are the winner! This is it! The point exactly! What goes around comes around! If it doesn't sound right to alot of people down here, it want go with God above either! The scale always balances out! I will admit, things have come back to me, that I have done to others. I know, what you do good comes back tenforth and what you do bad comes back to halt the hell out of you. From experience! I love what you wrote, Wrighty!

[Stephanie]

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Wrighty wrote:
I think I have to agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far. In my opinion Miriam didn't do the same thing that Judith did because she didn't know that Manny was still involved. As soon as she knew it was definitely over. Judith knew and she helped end a marriage (or two). She did do Miriam a favor but she didn't know it at the time. Judith is very selfish and doesn't care about the consequences of her actions. It's all about Judith. I think for Miriam to forgive her it just frees Miriam. She doesn't have to condone Judith's actions she just have to give them up and unload the pain and anger. We've talked about that in a couple different book clubs. That's not an easy thing to do. There are people in my life that I haven't quite forgiven but I have tried to let the pain go. They don't get to have that power over me anymore. Like Viv said, they got to live in my head rent free. The emotions do come up sometimes because they still pull a selfish stunt from time to time but I have evicted them from my head. That was the whole point of "divorcing" them from our lives in the first place. I also think that people who treat others so poorly will get what they deserve. What goes around comes around. I like my life and Mellie does too now. Judith and Charles will never have the happiness she has discovered. They don't give it so they can't receive it.

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Debbie,

Well put! I particularly appreciate the idea of giving love and happiness in order to receive it. If you actively try to avoid harming others, even if you can't be helpful, I think you'll get that back as well.

[Wrighty]

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Stephanie wrote:
Debbie,
Well put! I particularly appreciate the idea of giving love and happiness in order to receive it. If you actively try to avoid harming others, even if you can't be helpful, I think you'll get that back as well.

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Why thank you ladies! Stephanie and Kiakar, you're making me blush!

[maxcat]

I don't think Miriam needs to forgive Judith; the woman outright stole her husband away. And I don't think Miriam needs to feel guilty about what she did as she did not know Manny was married or still married. Her situation is much different than Judith's in that respect.She shouldn't judge every woman by Judith's standards.

[kiakar]

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maxcat wrote:
I don't think Miriam needs to forgive Judith; the woman outright stole her husband away. And I don't think Miriam needs to feel guilty about what she did as she did not know Manny was married or still married. Her situation is much different than Judith's in that respect.She shouldn't judge every woman by Judith's standards.

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But it is still good to forgive. It will make your life better if you can let the past be the past. And then if the hate and the revenge is gone, you can see that person doesn't have such a pie life anyway. But you can't hold revenge or you never see beyond it. And sometimes its the hardest thing to do. To let go, of that anger and hundreds of revengeful thoughts.

[mairwill]

KathyS and All--

Us people with first names that begin with "M's" have all kinds of problems. My mother's sister's name is Margaret and mine is Marilyn. But my mother always said Marga-Marilyn when she started to address me. She would start to say her sister's name and then remember it was me and say my name. Good think I don't have an inferiority complex (well, not much of one anyway)!

Later--

Mair