Whole Book Discussion: Miss Josie

[kiakar]

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CAT72 wrote:

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dotfrank wrote:
Ladies, ladies, ladies . . . Let's say Miss Josie was smoking pot because it made her feel good. Um, no duh. Perhaps there is another agenda - yuh. But is that agenda the point of the book? No. It is the mother daughter relationship and anyone who thinks daughters don't judge mothers can't have a daughter like mine. Daughters are your greatest blessing but it can also be like living with a terrorist. There is a misplaced fire in Miriam. Lord! She thinks she knows it all! And she has been kicked around by her life in the big city so badly that her judgment is all out of whack. Haven't we all felt like that for one reason or another?

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Dot - I have to totally agree with you about mothers and daughters, I know that my mom would agree with you, in fact even now that my mother and I don't live together she would agree with you. On the flipside of that, it is a blessing for me to have my mother in my life but let me say she can lay on the guilt.

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Yea, but I posted somewhere around here about that; We are so attached or bonded that we expect too much out of the other half of us, mother vs. daughter or daughter vs. mother. If anyone gets my meaning!! I am totally boggled trying to say what I think.hehehe

[LizzieAnn]

Kathy, I quite agree with what you say about Miriam, particularly about her wanting to learn all about her mother near the end. I was glad for both of them that they had that time together, albeit that it was short.

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KathyS wrote:
Linda, beautifully said.

I look at myself differently, now that I'm a mature adult. I look at the world around me differently, too. I never thought I would feel the way I do, at this time in my life. Especially when you think you know everything. Time doesn't stand still for any of us, and it's best to learn all you can along the way, otherwise you spend [waste], a lot of time playing catch-up, the way Miriam did.

I look back and see my parents. They were that couple who seemed to know everything there was to know about anything. Except, of course, when you're a teenager! Parents are so dumb then!.....But now I see my parents (who are no longer living), as fallible human beings. They made mistakes, as well as myself as a daughter, a wife, a parent....and even now, as a grandparent. But I found that there are so many things which occur, and change along the way, at least it did for me. I should have learned more than I did. It's the shoulda, coulda, woulda's.....

I saw this transformation in Miriam. She lived in her world of pleasing....how to please and be accepted, and be loved. It's a sad thing to see, trying to find acceptance, where there never can be. Trying to find what it means to love, or be loved, by either her mother, or her kids, or by her so called *friends*.

She gained momentum with each and every experience - good or bad. You just hope it doesn't get to the point of no return, and things are said and done, that can't bring you back to the love you should have between the people that are in your life. Middle age is not and easy transitional place to be, either...another stopping point for reflection....This has been my part in all of this reading. Take the time to stop and see if there are things we've missed along the way. But I do see it now, before it's too late.

I think the touching moments were when Miriam wanted to learn everything she could about Josie. It was the most beautiful part of this novel....it only made me want to look back and see what it was I *shoulda* learned about my parents, and didn't. But you can't change history...that's a fact. You are who you are, at that moment. So you just take what you've learned, as from Dot's novel, and start applying it to the *you* that's living in this world, now, and to the people you love.

Kathy S.

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[Liz1017]

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Stephanie wrote:
Dot,

Re: Your plan to move to Sullivan's Island when you're at Miss Josie's point in time - but not keeping chickens... You're right about those chickens. They are disgusting, and vicious!

I wondered if Miss Josie had gone around the bend with her Nigerian dwarf goat and her chickens. I can see growing some vegetables, but I am not messing with a goat eating up everything I own and the smell of chicken waste. No thanks! I did, however, wonder if she was on the skids a bit- perhaps Miriam's daddy didn't leave her so well off? But then she smoked pot. And that brought the hammer down on me.

Group: Did you think Miss Josie was smoking pot for the fun of it, or did you understand her underlying motive?

Do you think Miriam misunderstood because so much about her mother seemed changed, or do you think she was just too wrapped up in herself?

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As soon as I saw that passage, I knew something was up. I mean, it's one thing to follow the wholistic lifestyle that Miss Josie was following, but it's another to "spark up a doobie" and get lit right in front of your daughter. I knew that Miss Josie was past the point where peer pressure would be an issue in her life, so there was something deeper and I knew that Miriam knew what it was, but just couldn't see it.

[KathyS]

You know, Liz, I never really got the impression Miriam knew any more than what she thought at that moment...her mom had turned into a *hippie*! At least I don't think I heard her voice anything else. I may be wrong. Smoking pot wasn't what I thought she did for recreation, but who knew at that point?

Kathy S.

Message Edited by KathyS on 07-17-2007 02:27 PM

[vivico1]

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KathyS wrote:
You know, Liz, I never really got the impression Miriam knew any more than what she thought at that moment...her mom had turned into a *hippie*! At least I don't think I heard her voice anything else. I may be wrong. Smoking pot wasn't what I thought she did for recreation, but who knew at that point?

Kathy S.

Message Edited by KathyS on 07-17-2007 02:27 PM

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I think Miriam had gotten so caught up in worrying what people thought of her in her Manhattan life, that she didnt think much beyond what the obvious "assumption" would be, by appearances. Miriam doesnt look to deep into anything before she evolves into Mellie,so you are probably right. If you look at her mother through her eyes at that time, thats what you see, an older woman who has become an earth mother, in more ways than one. Miriam just judges her by outward appearances right now , just as everyone in her life does at this point.

[Wrighty]

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kiakar wrote:
Yea, but I posted somewhere around here about that; We are so attached or bonded that we expect too much out of the other half of us, mother vs. daughter or daughter vs. mother. If anyone gets my meaning!! I am totally boggled trying to say what I think.hehehe

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I get your meaning Kiakar and I get what Viv is saying too. A mother and her child are forever connected in a way and you're just saying that it's a stronger connection between the mother and daughter. Viv is saying that her own experience is that her mother never bonded with her. As her child, Viv still loved her mom and still tried to make a connection but her mom couldn't. I agree with both of you.

I'm lucky to have an amazing mom who I talk to several times every day. She is there any time we need her and is a wonderful grandma. She does it just because she loves us. She expects nothing in return. As a teenager, I thought I knew everything of course and we had some arguments because of it but thankfully nothing bad. I have used her as a great example of how to mother. I adore her and count my blessings every day. I love to do things for her or find her little gifts, write her special messages, anything to show her how much she means to all of us. On the other hand, we have a close family member who we have had to "divorce" in much the same way Viv did with her mom. After years and years of tolerating her selfish, hurtful behavior and then years of trying to make things right between us, we had to do what was best for us and not let her be a part of our life anymore. Of course it wasn't as simple as that sounds and it would take me pages and pages to describe all that we went through but she is a person who doesn't know how to care about others. She can't make that connection either. She doesn't have that bond because she only cares for herself. It's not an easy process but for now it's the best thing for us. Otherwise it's like a cancer that keeps spreading and destroying. Women can and do form a strong community that support each other. that's something that we need and can create with our friends. It's not exactly the same as family but it is a strong support system that provides the love we need.

Message Edited by Wrighty on 07-18-2007 02:09 AM

[kiakar]

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Wrighty wrote:

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kiakar wrote:
Yea, but I posted somewhere around here about that; We are so attached or bonded that we expect too much out of the other half of us, mother vs. daughter or daughter vs. mother. If anyone gets my meaning!! I am totally boggled trying to say what I think.hehehe

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I get your meaning Kiakar and I get what Viv is saying too. A mother and her child are forever connected in a way and you're just saying that it's a stronger connection between the mother and daughter. Viv is saying that her own experience is that her mother never bonded with her. As her child, Viv still loved her mom and still tried to make a connection but her mom couldn't. I agree with both of you.

I'm lucky to have an amazing mom who I talk to several times every day. She is there any time we need her and is a wonderful grandma. She does it just because she loves us. She expects nothing in return. As a teenager, I thought I knew everything of course and we had some arguments because of it but thankfully nothing bad. I have used her as a great example of how to mother. I adore her and count my blessings every day. I love to do things for her or find her little gifts, write her special messages, anything to show her how much she means to all of us. On the other hand, we have a close family member who we have had to "divorce" in much the same way Viv did with her mom. After years and years of tolerating her selfish, hurtful behavior and then years of trying to make things right between us, we had to do what was best for us and not let her be a part of our life anymore. Of course it wasn't as simple as that sounds and it would take me pages and pages to describe all that we went through but she is a person who doesn't know how to care about others. She can't make that connection either. She doesn't have that bond because she only cares for herself. It's not an easy process but for now it's the best thing for us. Otherwise it's like a cancer that keeps spreading and destroying. Women can and do form a strong community that support each other. that's something that we need and can create with our friends. It's not exactly the same as family but it is a strong support system that provides the love we need.

Message Edited by Wrighty on 07-18-2007 02:09 AM

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Wrighty: I loved that! You made my day!

[LizzieAnn]

Like you Kathy, I don't think Miriam had a clue about her mom. She had not only lost when it came to understanding her mother, but also to the fact of the medicinal uses of pot. I have to say as soon as I read that I got suspicious of Miss Josie's health.

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KathyS wrote:
You know, Liz, I never really got the impression Miriam knew any more than what she thought at that moment...her mom had turned into a *hippie*! At least I don't think I heard her voice anything else. I may be wrong. Smoking pot wasn't what I thought she did for recreation, but who knew at that point?

Kathy S.

Message Edited by KathyS on 07-17-2007 02:27 PM

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[KathyS]

Liz, yes, Miriam's world views seemed to have only existed within the confines of her narrow existence. She was cynical and critical of a lot of things, her mother just one of them.

[Wrighty]

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kiakar wrote:
Wrighty: I loved that! You made my day!

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Kiakar, so happy to hear it! If all it takes to make your day is running my mouth, er...fingers (?), I'm happy to do it and will continue to do so every chance I get! I'm very good at it - running my mouth that is.

(So, how exactly did I make your day?)

[kiakar]

Yes, That is what I was thinking also. I have heard that especially if you are experiencing alot of pain. And she didn't want to be doped up and not enjoy the rest of her time here. Miriam was really barking up the wrong tree but I couldn't see Miss Josie changing that much since she had been the society dame too once in her life. A long part of it.

[kiakar]

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kiakar wrote:

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Wrighty wrote:

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kiakar wrote:
Yea, but I posted somewhere around here about that; We are so attached or bonded that we expect too much out of the other half of us, mother vs. daughter or daughter vs. mother. If anyone gets my meaning!! I am totally boggled trying to say what I think.hehehe

---

I get your meaning Kiakar and I get what Viv is saying too. A mother and her child are forever connected in a way and you're just saying that it's a stronger connection between the mother and daughter. Viv is saying that her own experience is that her mother never bonded with her. As her child, Viv still loved her mom and still tried to make a connection but her mom couldn't. I agree with both of you.

I'm lucky to have an amazing mom who I talk to several times every day. She is there any time we need her and is a wonderful grandma. She does it just because she loves us. She expects nothing in return. As a teenager, I thought I knew everything of course and we had some arguments because of it but thankfully nothing bad. I have used her as a great example of how to mother. I adore her and count my blessings every day. I love to do things for her or find her little gifts, write her special messages, anything to show her how much she means to all of us. On the other hand, we have a close family member who we have had to "divorce" in much the same way Viv did with her mom. After years and years of tolerating her selfish, hurtful behavior and then years of trying to make things right between us, we had to do what was best for us and not let her be a part of our life anymore. Of course it wasn't as simple as that sounds and it would take me pages and pages to describe all that we went through but she is a person who doesn't know how to care about others. She can't make that connection either. She doesn't have that bond because she only cares for herself. It's not an easy process but for now it's the best thing for us. Otherwise it's like a cancer that keeps spreading and destroying. Women can and do form a strong community that support each other. that's something that we need and can create with our friends. It's not exactly the same as family but it is a strong support system that provides the love we need.

Message Edited by Wrighty on 07-18-2007 02:09 AM

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Wrighty: I loved that! You made my day!

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I was talking about what you wrote about the mother and daughter thing I think! It opened my eyes to the reality of the meaning. You cleared my thoughts , in other words. hahaha

[Wrighty]

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kiakar wrote:
Yes, That is what I was thinking also. I have heard that especially if you are experiencing alot of pain. And she didn't want to be doped up and not enjoy the rest of her time here. Miriam was really barking up the wrong tree but I couldn't see Miss Josie changing that much since she had been the society dame too once in her life. A long part of it.

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I just heard something interesting about that. I have a family member who is going through chemo and radiation and she was given pot in pill form (it's legal in her state but she said it's no fun if it's a pill!) but it's not for the pain like I thought. She won't take it unless she is too nauseous to eat. Then it will make her very hungry (give her the munchies!) and then she can eat. I learn something new almost every day.

[kiakar]

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Wrighty wrote:

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kiakar wrote:
Yes, That is what I was thinking also. I have heard that especially if you are experiencing alot of pain. And she didn't want to be doped up and not enjoy the rest of her time here. Miriam was really barking up the wrong tree but I couldn't see Miss Josie changing that much since she had been the society dame too once in her life. A long part of it.

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I just heard something interesting about that. I have a family member who is going through chemo and radiation and she was given pot in pill form (it's legal in her state but she said it's no fun if it's a pill!) but it's not for the pain like I thought. She won't take it unless she is too nauseous to eat. Then it will make her very hungry (give her the munchies!) and then she can eat. I learn something new almost every day.

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Wow! I didn't know that either; I always took it was for pain. But nausea is a big factor in treating cancer.

[Wrighty]

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kiakar wrote:
Wow! I didn't know that either; I always took it was for pain. But nausea is a big factor in treating cancer.

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Kiakar, when I first read your post I thought you said "I always took it for pain." I guess I need to pay more attention and get it right the first time!

[kiakar]

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Wrighty wrote:

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kiakar wrote:
Wow! I didn't know that either; I always took it was for pain. But nausea is a big factor in treating cancer.

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Kiakar, when I first read your post I thought you said "I always took it for pain." I guess I need to pay more attention and get it right the first time!

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Hey: Knowing me, I probably said that; haha! But no, I have never even tried the stuff! Not yet, anyway. Who knows, what you might do before you die!

[KathyS]

Linda, just don't sit on it!

K.

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kiakar wrote:

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Wrighty wrote:

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kiakar wrote:
Wow! I didn't know that either; I always took it was for pain. But nausea is a big factor in treating cancer.

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Kiakar, when I first read your post I thought you said "I always took it for pain." I guess I need to pay more attention and get it right the first time!

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Hey: Knowing me, I probably said that; haha! But no, I have never even tried the stuff! Not yet, anyway. Who knows, what you might do before you die!

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[kiakar]

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KathyS wrote:
Linda, just don't sit on it!

K.

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kiakar wrote:

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Wrighty wrote:

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kiakar wrote:
Wow! I didn't know that either; I always took it was for pain. But nausea is a big factor in treating cancer.

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Kiakar, when I first read your post I thought you said "I always took it for pain." I guess I need to pay more attention and get it right the first time!

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Hey: Knowing me, I probably said that; haha! But no, I have never even tried the stuff! Not yet, anyway. Who knows, what you might do before you die!

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Why would you sit on it? Does it have that kind of effect? wow!

[vivico1]

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kiakar wrote:

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Wrighty wrote:

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kiakar wrote:
Wow! I didn't know that either; I always took it was for pain. But nausea is a big factor in treating cancer.

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Kiakar, when I first read your post I thought you said "I always took it for pain." I guess I need to pay more attention and get it right the first time!

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Hey: Knowing me, I probably said that; haha! But no, I have never even tried the stuff! Not yet, anyway. Who knows, what you might do before you die!

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soooo, this is you without pain meds??? lol

[kiakar]

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vivico1 wrote:

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kiakar wrote:

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Wrighty wrote:

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kiakar wrote:
Wow! I didn't know that either; I always took it was for pain. But nausea is a big factor in treating cancer.

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Kiakar, when I first read your post I thought you said "I always took it for pain." I guess I need to pay more attention and get it right the first time!

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Hey: Knowing me, I probably said that; haha! But no, I have never even tried the stuff! Not yet, anyway. Who knows, what you might do before you die!

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soooo, this is you without pain meds??? lol

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No, I swear on a double stack of bibles, never have I ever, I really do not know what it smells like. That I should have known, with raising children, but still after being told by some friends, what it smells like. I do not reconize the smell. Now if that ain't inocent, I don't know what is!