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KathyS
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Whole book discussion - Liz

[ Edited ]
We've managed to take Liz apart as the dumb blonde. Now, would anyone like to express their thoughts about putting her back together, as a beautiful whole human being? Her relationship with her mother - Her father, step-father - Incest, child abuse, etc, etc....her changes? Her new found life? Any thoughts along these lines?

Message Edited by KathyS on 07-25-2007 09:44 AM
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mairwill
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Re: Whole book discussion - Liz

KathyS and All--

I never really viewed Liz as a dumb blond. I saw her from the beginning as just trying to get by. Miriam didn't give herself a chance to get to know her until she got beat up because Miriam couldn't keep her mouth shut as she should have. Liz was young; she made a mistake (as we all do). Miriam was NOT young and she made a huge mistake in telling Mrs. Willis her hubby was screwing around.

Once Miriam got to know her, her views changed. Though it is interesting it was Miss Josie that Liz opened up to about her past and not Miriam (I am remembering that right, aren't I?).

Later--

Mair
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kiakar
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Re: Whole book discussion - Liz



mairwill wrote:
KathyS and All--

I never really viewed Liz as a dumb blond. I saw her from the beginning as just trying to get by. Miriam didn't give herself a chance to get to know her until she got beat up because Miriam couldn't keep her mouth shut as she should have. Liz was young; she made a mistake (as we all do). Miriam was NOT young and she made a huge mistake in telling Mrs. Willis her hubby was screwing around.

Once Miriam got to know her, her views changed. Though it is interesting it was Miss Josie that Liz opened up to about her past and not Miriam (I am remembering that right, aren't I?).

Later--

Mair





Yes, Miss Josie had already mellowed on the inside.She had almost then, came full circle with her life, so she understood people as human beings and it showed on the outside because it was coming from her heart. Miriam is not quite there yet! She has a ways to go before she realizes this journey we all have to learn about life and people. We are all human!
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KathyS
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Re: Whole book discussion - Liz



mairwill wrote:
KathyS and All--

I never really viewed Liz as a dumb blond. I saw her from the beginning as just trying to get by. Miriam didn't give herself a chance to get to know her until she got beat up because Miriam couldn't keep her mouth shut as she should have. Liz was young; she made a mistake (as we all do). Miriam was NOT young and she made a huge mistake in telling Mrs. Willis her hubby was screwing around.

Once Miriam got to know her, her views changed. Though it is interesting it was Miss Josie that Liz opened up to about her past and not Miriam (I am remembering that right, aren't I?).

Later--

Mair


Yes, Liz did open up to Josie. The feeling is, she viewed her as a family member she never had. She needed someone to get close to. Miriam's part in why Liz was beat up, was a mistake. And as soon as it came out of her mouth, she regretted it. I think we've all been there on this one. Never was never any intent on Miriam's part to harm anyone, except Mrs. Willis. But who knew what the outcome of that mistake would bring? I certainly didn't.

At the beginning, so much of how we saw Liz was simply on the surface, until we find out the real reason why she was having these relationships. She wasn't the ditz, or the dumb blonde, and I didn't view her as stupid, either. She apparently had an education. She was able to function and take initiative. But I saw her as naive. The question for her was: How to deal with, and live in the real world when your history stunted that growth?
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LizzieAnn
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Re: Whole book discussion - Liz

[ Edited ]
Despite how she appeared at first, I saw Liz as a fragile creature on a precarious path. Her past had placed her on a self-destructive path. The beating was a fork in the road, and the care (physical & emotional) that she received from Miriam, Kevin, and Miss Josie helped her to take a new path - one that was positive. I think she was also able to reach down within herself and find courage, which was what she needed the most. I was glad she was able to face her mother, confront her, and reconcile with her before she passed.

When Priscilla urged Liz to go to her mother, she spoke true words. Regret and guilt would have haunted Liz if she didn't go to her mother then.

Message Edited by LizzieAnn on 07-25-2007 02:21 PM
Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Stephanie
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Re: Whole book discussion - Liz

I liked Liz from the outset. There was something hilariously appropriate about her lava lamp. She was young, foolish and it was only when we found out she'd been abused that I could begin to fathom her attraction to the old married man. Looking for the father-figure ... perhaps someone who could take care of her as she had never been?

Group: Your thoughts?
Stephanie
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vivico1
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Re: Whole book discussion - Liz

Liz was just a young girl who had to grow up too soon. She was a kid inside a woman's body in many ways. She could squeal in delight at the room, have things that younger people from an older time might have, be as naive about some things in life as a little girl but had too much knowledge of what men want and how to please them. She may have been looking for a father figure or just finding men who unfortunately, she knew more about. She never really got to be a kid and grow up with young men her own age. That happens a lot with child abuse. Thats why its nice when she gets to go home and meet up with the one boy she knew when she was a kid and get to go through that dating stage finally and find someone who wont use her but might love her. Its also why it was nice for her to have Miss Josie to talk to and then Mellie. Liz was a lost kid, reclaiming life through good people finally.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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kiakar
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Re: Whole book discussion - Liz



Stephanie wrote:
I liked Liz from the outset. There was something hilariously appropriate about her lava lamp. She was young, foolish and it was only when we found out she'd been abused that I could begin to fathom her attraction to the old married man. Looking for the father-figure ... perhaps someone who could take care of her as she had never been?

Group: Your thoughts?




Stephanie, I feel that too. she wanted a father. That is what I learned along the many paths of destruction myself. It is a natural thing, a instinct given to us to mold our menfolk after our maker and our earthly father. If we have the wrong role model or none at all, it makes for alot of wrong choices.
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dotfrank
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Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .

And when I do, everyone will believe I made it up. Let me tell all of you this. Y'all are ALL right about Liz. Here's what's remarkable about being a writer - well, one of the things that blows my mind anyway - since all the characters come out of my head, there's a piece of me in all of them. I was once very naive like Liz - not abused, thankfully. Part of me has been lonely like Miriam when I was living alone in Manhattan and struggling to pay my bills and dumped by my first husband. And part of me is Miss Josie who wants to tell everyone how to fix their lives without cramming it down their throat. My mother died from a melanoma and I guess I am always trying to come to terms with that. And because my father died in front of me at 4 1/2 years old and I then had the bad joss to discover my stepfather's dead body at 17 and then buried my second step father at 26, I had man issues for a long time - that they are gonna leave you so don't get too attached. So writing is great therapy but I also know it carries a responsibility, well, many of them. Beyond the obvious, which is to deliver a saleable, readable book to my publisher on time, I owe my readers entertainment but perhaps more importantly, something to think about. My greatest wish is that my stories make us all more understanding and tolerant of each other but that we also learn to forgive ourselves for the really stupid things we do, pick up the pieces and move on.


Learn more about Bulls Island.

Discover all Dorothea Benton Frank titles.


Distinguished Bibliophile
KathyS
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Re: Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .



dotfrank wrote:
And when I do, everyone will believe I made it up. Let me tell all of you this. Y'all are ALL right about Liz. Here's what's remarkable about being a writer - well, one of the things that blows my mind anyway - since all the characters come out of my head, there's a piece of me in all of them. I was once very naive like Liz - not abused, thankfully. Part of me has been lonely like Miriam when I was living alone in Manhattan and struggling to pay my bills and dumped by my first husband. And part of me is Miss Josie who wants to tell everyone how to fix their lives without cramming it down their throat. My mother died from a melanoma and I guess I am always trying to come to terms with that. And because my father died in front of me at 4 1/2 years old and I then had the bad joss to discover my stepfather's dead body at 17 and then buried my second step father at 26, I had man issues for a long time - that they are gonna leave you so don't get too attached. So writing is great therapy but I also know it carries a responsibility, well, many of them. Beyond the obvious, which is to deliver a saleable, readable book to my publisher on time, I owe my readers entertainment but perhaps more importantly, something to think about. My greatest wish is that my stories make us all more understanding and tolerant of each other but that we also learn to forgive ourselves for the really stupid things we do, pick up the pieces and move on.



Dot,
Thank you for your words. You truly do speak from your heart.
K.
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vivico1
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Re: Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .


dotfrank wrote:
And when I do, everyone will believe I made it up. Let me tell all of you this. Y'all are ALL right about Liz. Here's what's remarkable about being a writer - well, one of the things that blows my mind anyway - since all the characters come out of my head, there's a piece of me in all of them. I was once very naive like Liz - not abused, thankfully. Part of me has been lonely like Miriam when I was living alone in Manhattan and struggling to pay my bills and dumped by my first husband. And part of me is Miss Josie who wants to tell everyone how to fix their lives without cramming it down their throat. My mother died from a melanoma and I guess I am always trying to come to terms with that. And because my father died in front of me at 4 1/2 years old and I then had the bad joss to discover my stepfather's dead body at 17 and then buried my second step father at 26, I had man issues for a long time - that they are gonna leave you so don't get too attached. So writing is great therapy but I also know it carries a responsibility, well, many of them. Beyond the obvious, which is to deliver a saleable, readable book to my publisher on time, I owe my readers entertainment but perhaps more importantly, something to think about. My greatest wish is that my stories make us all more understanding and tolerant of each other but that we also learn to forgive ourselves for the really stupid things we do, pick up the pieces and move on.


Dot,
Wow, you went through a lot of fathers, and too many to death. I had 5, none were my real father, so I guess 6. The one I really liked died at 57, only 7 years after entering my family and I mourn him most. I met my real father at 16 and it was like coming home for the first time! We really hit it off but we lived states away so only got to see him off and on Then later, when I was older and we kept in touch by phone and would meet each other when we could and where we could, I became ill, he became ill, I couldn't get in touch with him, he was gravely ill and couldn't get in touch with anyone but told his wife to call me. His phone number didn't work anymore and my letters came back saying no such address. Finally, I went through my connections in the phone company, only to find out, the only reason I couldn't get through was that he had lived out in the country and was on a rural route and that area had grown up so much, they had a new AREA CODE so his phone number didn't work with the area code I had. WHO would have thought of that, not even the operators or information did. Also, they changed the route numbers to street names so my mail was coming back but he had lived in the same place. I was able to find out the real number and talked to my stepmother (by now it had been two years since I had talked to him) and she told me he DIED a year and a half before that! I then was able to track down a half brother I had only met once but he liked me and he told me that my stepmother (his stepmother too) had told him that when my dad had asked her to call me because he was dying and fast and in a horrible way, from Lou Gehrig's disease (mind stays totally intact, but all the muscles in the body die till you cant move, or talk to the people you are watching or finally breath), he said that she told him she did call me but that I said I didn't want to come!

Now I had talked to her once early in that two year period, thinking my dad was out on the truck somewhere, when I was sick and before caller ID to notice a difference in phone #s, and she never even said anything was wrong with him so I could come see him or that I needed to start calling or writing anywhere different. So my dad died thinking I didn't want to see him. :smileysad: I know he knows different now, but that hurt almost more than losing him did. For that, I find it hard to forgive her. My stepmother and her whole family told me I was just the bastard child anyway and I didn't belong, that they were nice because they had to be in front of him all those years and it was time for me to leave them alone. My one half brother who was not her son either and liked me, told me Vivian, if I had known she didnt tell you, I would have found a way to get in touch with you myself, Dad wanted to see you and I know why she did it. She had all us barred from his room (he was in the hospital she worked in as an RN) other than her kids and brought in a lawyer and changed his will. She didnt want you in the will and I know dad had you heavily in it. I said I dont care about a darn will and they could have had it all anyway, I just wanted a dad, my dad. I said did you get his gun collection, he told me once he wanted you to have those, you were his eldest son. He said, no, I was not in the will, I don't think dad cared too much for me but I understand. I said your wrong James, I know you two didn't talk very much, he never said why, but he talked to me about you a lot. He loved you and his collection was his Texas prized possession that he wanted you to have. He said really? Dad talked about me? I said I am not kidding at all, and it was true. I said who got his guns? He said the stepmother's drunken son who then sold them. I told James that it was up to him if he wanted to contest the will because he had grounds, given Dad's state at the end. I said, I just dont have a place there, I dont want anything from them. They already took it, time with my dad and his last wish with me.

When I date, I dont look for men that are older, or a father figure. Actually, older men all look like prospective stepfathers LOL, even tho I am getting older too. I like the ones that are a little younger actually :smileywink:. But not in a mood for any of them these days so spend more girlfriend time. It was a couple of new online girlfriends who told me about your books and talked me into trying this one and I told one of my best friends about it too so we all came in :smileywink: . Good book Dot, I enjoyed it a lot and will be reading the others.

I thank you too for sharing a bit of yourself in this post. Everyone wonders how much of certain characters are in an author or those around them and this part, I will probably keep to put in my book, since I am not close enough to you to get an autograph! :smileywink:

p.s. check your little mail box up at the right again please. :smileyhappy:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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kiakar
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Re: Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .



dotfrank wrote:
And when I do, everyone will believe I made it up. Let me tell all of you this. Y'all are ALL right about Liz. Here's what's remarkable about being a writer - well, one of the things that blows my mind anyway - since all the characters come out of my head, there's a piece of me in all of them. I was once very naive like Liz - not abused, thankfully. Part of me has been lonely like Miriam when I was living alone in Manhattan and struggling to pay my bills and dumped by my first husband. And part of me is Miss Josie who wants to tell everyone how to fix their lives without cramming it down their throat. My mother died from a melanoma and I guess I am always trying to come to terms with that. And because my father died in front of me at 4 1/2 years old and I then had the bad joss to discover my stepfather's dead body at 17 and then buried my second step father at 26, I had man issues for a long time - that they are gonna leave you so don't get too attached. So writing is great therapy but I also know it carries a responsibility, well, many of them. Beyond the obvious, which is to deliver a saleable, readable book to my publisher on time, I owe my readers entertainment but perhaps more importantly, something to think about. My greatest wish is that my stories make us all more understanding and tolerant of each other but that we also learn to forgive ourselves for the really stupid things we do, pick up the pieces and move on.




I always thought I had lived the life, Dot. But you have lived quite alot your self.
You are right, when mistakes are made, they come from the past but they do not have to go into the future. Let them just fade off the slate and try over again. You are so right. And do write that memoir. I hope I am around to read it.
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mairwill
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Re: Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .

Golly Moses, Dot. . . and you've done what most of us do--we find a way to go on and have a good life even with the many obstacles that we have/had to face.

One of the reasons I like your books is that the characters are like real people--none are perfect. They are just figuring out how to live life with humor, in spite of mistakes, and with love--just like us.

Later--

Mair
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dotfrank
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Re: Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .



kiakar wrote:


dotfrank wrote:
And when I do, everyone will believe I made it up. Let me tell all of you this. Y'all are ALL right about Liz. Here's what's remarkable about being a writer - well, one of the things that blows my mind anyway - since all the characters come out of my head, there's a piece of me in all of them. I was once very naive like Liz - not abused, thankfully. Part of me has been lonely like Miriam when I was living alone in Manhattan and struggling to pay my bills and dumped by my first husband. And part of me is Miss Josie who wants to tell everyone how to fix their lives without cramming it down their throat. My mother died from a melanoma and I guess I am always trying to come to terms with that. And because my father died in front of me at 4 1/2 years old and I then had the bad joss to discover my stepfather's dead body at 17 and then buried my second step father at 26, I had man issues for a long time - that they are gonna leave you so don't get too attached. So writing is great therapy but I also know it carries a responsibility, well, many of them. Beyond the obvious, which is to deliver a saleable, readable book to my publisher on time, I owe my readers entertainment but perhaps more importantly, something to think about. My greatest wish is that my stories make us all more understanding and tolerant of each other but that we also learn to forgive ourselves for the really stupid things we do, pick up the pieces and move on.




I always thought I had lived the life, Dot. But you have lived quite alot your self.
You are right, when mistakes are made, they come from the past but they do not have to go into the future. Let them just fade off the slate and try over again. You are so right. And do write that memoir. I hope I am around to read



it.





Honey chile? We have all loved the life! And none of us are done! hang in there - it just keeps getting more interesting!


Learn more about Bulls Island.

Discover all Dorothea Benton Frank titles.


Inspired Wordsmith
Stephanie
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Re: Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .


dotfrank wrote:
My greatest wish is that my stories make us all more understanding and tolerant of each other but that we also learn to forgive ourselves for the really stupid things we do, pick up the pieces and move on.




Dot,

You have done that for me, again and again and again. I do a lot of stupid things.
Stephanie
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Wrighty
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Re: Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .


dotfrank wrote:
Honey chile? We have all loved the life! And none of us are done! hang in there - it just keeps getting more interesting!




Dot,
Thanks for sharing your story and for using it in your writing. You are an inspiration and a whole lot of fun! :smileyvery-happy:
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Wrighty
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Re: Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .


vivico1 wrote:
So my dad died thinking I didn't want to see him. :smileysad: I know he knows different now, but that hurt almost more than losing him did. For that, I find it hard to forgive her.




Viv,
So sorry for the loss of your father and what your stepmother did to you. I don't know if I could ever forgive that. I am glad that you did get to meet your father and have some time with him. I'm also glad that it led to meeting your half-brother. The two of you were able to share the truth with each other about your dad's feelings. I hope that was a comfort and that you will continue to have a good relationship with him.
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vivico1
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Re: Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .


Wrighty wrote:

vivico1 wrote:
So my dad died thinking I didn't want to see him. :smileysad: I know he knows different now, but that hurt almost more than losing him did. For that, I find it hard to forgive her.




Viv,
So sorry for the loss of your father and what your stepmother did to you. I don't know if I could ever forgive that. I am glad that you did get to meet your father and have some time with him. I'm also glad that it led to meeting your half-brother. The two of you were able to share the truth with each other about your dad's feelings. I hope that was a comfort and that you will continue to have a good relationship with him.


My half brother, my dad's son was almost old enough to be my father. He died not long after I had talked to him, of congestive heart failure at a pretty young age actually,mid 50s I think because he would be like 66 now. My dad was 12 years older than my mom and she was 28 when she had me, I was her last. WOW, my dad would be 90 if he were alive today! My younger half brother that I met down there when he was 10, the son of my father and this stepmother, a little boy who when I looked at him, I finally saw another kid that looked like me when i was that age, (the ones i grew up with didnt), died at 25, 15 years ago in a car wreck on christmas day. I have no contact with anyone else down there in Texas anymore. But thank you and yes, James did get to hear that his dad did love and think about him and my faith makes me know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my dad knows I love him too and just didnt know back then or I would have come. The thing about losing loved ones to death for me, is not that they are gone forever or dont exist anymore, its about mourning time without them now, going through this life without them now. We will meet again, but yes, I mourn time.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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kiakar
Posts: 3,435
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Re: Someday I'm Gonna WRite a Memoir . . .



Stephanie wrote:

dotfrank wrote:
My greatest wish is that my stories make us all more understanding and tolerant of each other but that we also learn to forgive ourselves for the really stupid things we do, pick up the pieces and move on.




Dot,

You have done that for me, again and again and again. I do a lot of stupid things.





Oh! yes! Dot and me too!
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