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Frequent Contributor
WildCityWoman
Posts: 683
Registered: ‎01-18-2007
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Re: Dolohov

'Tis, Choisya . . . it's pine trees, mostly . . . you've got to keep digging, turning over, digging, turning over, to get any decent growth.

 

A lot of clay in the soil too . . . and you know how stones come to the surface? Well, they keep coming and coming and coming . . . just like the batteries bunny in the commercial.

 

I keep leaves over the winter in what I call my 'mulching square' . . . that's the best kinda' soil to use. That helps with clay soil - sometimes I dig, then put a layer of leaves in the bottom of the hole before I put plants and soil in - that helps stop the clay from rising.

 

But I think that's what I like about it - it's difficult soil; I mostly cultivate what grows there naturally - what other people would call 'weeds' with a horrified look, I call plants. Weeds are plants that are growing where you don't want them growing.

 

It's not the kind of land where you put on your gloves, put in plants that are 15 bucks apiece, then invite the Blue Hat Society around to take pictures - it's a woodland . . . a wild, wild woodland, and we actually live on it - that's where the apartment building was built.

 

Yes, send the link to your garden photos - I think you sent me some pictures before.

 

Anyway, that's enough about gardening - I'm off and running about it - gotta' stop.

 

;-)

 


Choisya wrote:

Your garden looks as if it is on difficuilt terrain WCW?   I loved the double hollyhocks.  I will email you a link to my garden.   

 


WildCityWoman wrote:

Well, I'm not going to get al rambunctious and start # 3 . . . while gardening this weekend, I'll listen to my MP 3 player which still has # 2 on it - I'll listen right through again, just as I did with # 1.

 

I'm noticing as I tend to patches of plants around the lot, that it triggers off memories of my book listening.

 

I listened to the main part of the fighting as I was planting this bit of wild grass mallow early last evening . . .

 

[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/WildCityWoman/MulchingLog2.jpg[/IMG]

 

If you want to see my gardening, you can look at my journals . . .

 

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=gardening

 

 

Message Edited by WildCityWoman on 08-16-2008 12:14 PM

 


 


Choisya wrote:

Your garden looks as if it is on difficuilt terrain WCW?   I loved the double hollyhocks.  I will email you a link to my garden.   

 


WildCityWoman wrote:

Well, I'm not going to get al rambunctious and start # 3 . . . while gardening this weekend, I'll listen to my MP 3 player which still has # 2 on it - I'll listen right through again, just as I did with # 1.

 

I'm noticing as I tend to patches of plants around the lot, that it triggers off memories of my book listening.

 

I listened to the main part of the fighting as I was planting this bit of wild grass mallow early last evening . . .

 

[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/WildCityWoman/MulchingLog2.jpg[/IMG]

 

If you want to see my gardening, you can look at my journals . . .

 

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=gardening

 

 

Message Edited by WildCityWoman on 08-16-2008 12:14 PM

 


 

 

 

Carly

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=Books
Frequent Contributor
WildCityWoman
Posts: 683
Registered: ‎01-18-2007
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Re: Dolohov

I'll put this guy in the 'characters' thread, but I just wanted to say that I thought the 'accountant' in this Book - the guy that went along with them, was a riot!

 

You know in the movie about Al Capone . . . the little guy with the glasses - the one who gets shot down on the that bridge?

 

He's such a trooper! He takes up a gun and goes after the enemy . . .

 

Well, that's who the 'accountant' in this story reminds me of. He's just precious!

 

Carly

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=Books
Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: WCW Garden (off topic)

I see that on your website you mention that you have periwinkle (vinca) is it major or minor?  Both types grow well under trees but the minor is prettier with its variegated leaves.  Another good plant under trees is geranium/cranesbill.  It needs very little soil to thrive.

 

What is the Blue Hat Society?  I've heard of the Red Hat Society but not a Blue one. 

 


WildCityWoman wrote:

'Tis, Choisya . . . it's pine trees, mostly . . . you've got to keep digging, turning over, digging, turning over, to get any decent growth.

 

A lot of clay in the soil too . . . and you know how stones come to the surface? Well, they keep coming and coming and coming . . . just like the batteries bunny in the commercial.

 

I keep leaves over the winter in what I call my 'mulching square' . . . that's the best kinda' soil to use. That helps with clay soil - sometimes I dig, then put a layer of leaves in the bottom of the hole before I put plants and soil in - that helps stop the clay from rising.

 

But I think that's what I like about it - it's difficult soil; I mostly cultivate what grows there naturally - what other people would call 'weeds' with a horrified look, I call plants. Weeds are plants that are growing where you don't want them growing.

 

It's not the kind of land where you put on your gloves, put in plants that are 15 bucks apiece, then invite the Blue Hat Society around to take pictures - it's a woodland . . . a wild, wild woodland, and we actually live on it - that's where the apartment building was built.

 

Yes, send the link to your garden photos - I think you sent me some pictures before.

 

Anyway, that's enough about gardening - I'm off and running about it - gotta' stop.

 

;-)

 


Choisya wrote:

Your garden looks as if it is on difficuilt terrain WCW?   I loved the double hollyhocks.  I will email you a link to my garden.   

 


WildCityWoman wrote:

Well, I'm not going to get al rambunctious and start # 3 . . . while gardening this weekend, I'll listen to my MP 3 player which still has # 2 on it - I'll listen right through again, just as I did with # 1.

 

I'm noticing as I tend to patches of plants around the lot, that it triggers off memories of my book listening.

 

I listened to the main part of the fighting as I was planting this bit of wild grass mallow early last evening . . .

 

[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/WildCityWoman/MulchingLog2.jpg[/IMG]

 

If you want to see my gardening, you can look at my journals . . .

 

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=gardening

 

 

Message Edited by WildCityWoman on 08-16-2008 12:14 PM

 


 


Choisya wrote:

Your garden looks as if it is on difficuilt terrain WCW?   I loved the double hollyhocks.  I will email you a link to my garden.   

 


WildCityWoman wrote:

Well, I'm not going to get al rambunctious and start # 3 . . . while gardening this weekend, I'll listen to my MP 3 player which still has # 2 on it - I'll listen right through again, just as I did with # 1.

 

I'm noticing as I tend to patches of plants around the lot, that it triggers off memories of my book listening.

 

I listened to the main part of the fighting as I was planting this bit of wild grass mallow early last evening . . .

 

[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/WildCityWoman/MulchingLog2.jpg[/IMG]

 

If you want to see my gardening, you can look at my journals . . .

 

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=gardening

 

 

Message Edited by WildCityWoman on 08-16-2008 12:14 PM

 


 

 

 


 

Wordsmith
maude40
Posts: 357
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Dookhov

Thanks, Choisya, for the information on Dolohov. I love these book clubs as my reading is so much more interesting because of everyone's hard work. I never thought I'd like War and Peace, but it's great. Yvonne
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Laurel
Posts: 5,747
Registered: ‎10-29-2006
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Re: WCW Garden (off topic)

This sounds like a discussion that could be carried out better at theSilver Samover, not in th emidst of battles. :smileyhappy:
"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
Frequent Contributor
PaulK
Posts: 222
Registered: ‎11-02-2006
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Re: Some thoughts for those struggling with Book 2

I enjoy both the war and the peace parts. I never thought that I was attracted to war books but when I made a list of my favorite books there were many war books on it. I do not like the violent parts but rather the many insights about human nature that the high stress situation of being at war magnifies.

Matt's comments about communication of orders is insightful. I think Tolstoy is brilliant in his ability to convey this. It is a subject that comes through in the great book "Killer Angels" which, as many of you know, is about the US Civil War. There were many almost random events going on outside the control of the generals. If any of these events turned the other way the South might have won the war and I would need a passport to visit my daughter in Virginia.

I have more to say about war but I am spending most of the day watching the Olympics and do not have time now.

Thanks for all the thoughtful posts many of you are writting.


Bromley wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

I just noticed that a bit of a common theme in this thread is that some people were finding Book 2 a bit of a slog.  This is kind of the make or break book for a lot of people.  I think the reason for that is best summed up by an English woman I once knew who said, "My husband and I read War and Peace.  He liked the war bits, but I didn't really like them.  I liked the peace bits, though . . . they were just like a soap!"

 

We might not put it quite that way - but after a whole book of intrigue, inheritance-snatching, ballroom dancing - even just having female characters - Book 2 is quite stark and uncompromising.  It offers no relief of that sort.  We're only left with the soldiers on the battlefield.

 

Which is what makes it hard for some readers, because normally the kind of people who read books about soldiers on the battlefield are men - and a certain type of man at that.  (I'm not really much of a war book fan myself.)

 

So how can you get into this book?

 

The trick is to realise, first of all, that Tolstoy's descriptive style has stayed the same.  So, in the same way that you read the quirkly little details of various people in Book 1 and think, "Wow, I know people like that." Or, "Yes, I'd feel like that too" - in the same way, you'll find that you could relate very much to the people in Book 2 as well.  

 

Yes, there are some chapters where Tolstoy suddnely sounds like a historian, but notice how he often moves (a bit like using a telescope) from a large-scale panorama, down to a slightly closer view, and keeps going over several chapters, until he has put you right in the thick of the action.  It makes it very personal.

 

The other thing to notice (which will come in handy in the second half of the book when you start to get philosophy chapters) is that Tolstoy is trying to make a point about what really happens in wars.  Usually, after a battle, various generals talk about the commands they make and how that helped win the battle.  (As a heads up, that's what you can expect in the last chapter of this book.)

 

But when you actually talk to the soldier on the ground, the story can be wildly different.  The order that the general gave might never have got through.  Or perhaps it did, but something else happened.  So, in fact, all manner of things on the ground can happen that change the course of a battle - none of which have anything to do with what the general commanded.  This is Tolstoy's view of war and, later we find out, of history.

 

So, as you read, have a look out for the orders and commands and plans that are laid by the generals - and then look how different it is in reality.  If you do that, you'll be right on Tolstoy's wavelength here.

 

And, finally, if you can put yourself in the minds of the characters, you'll find it's quite an intense experience.  The war actually becomes a far more terrifying thing than we'd expect from Tolstoy's light style. (Which may not be a selling point for you wanting to read this chapter, but it does tell you how great a novelist Tolstoy is.)  This is far different from most battle scenes that we see in films, where it's really all just action, action, action, guns, guns, guns. 


 

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Laurel
Posts: 5,747
Registered: ‎10-29-2006
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Re: Some thoughts for those struggling with Book 2

Great notes, Paul. Sometimes we come to know even ourselves only during times of stress.

 


PaulK wrote:

I enjoy both the war and the peace parts. I never thought that I was attracted to war books but when I made a list of my favorite books there were many war books on it. I do not like the violent parts but rather the many insights about human nature that the high stress situation of being at war magnifies.

Matt's comments about communication of orders is insightful. I think Tolstoy is brilliant in his ability to convey this. It is a subject that comes through in the great book "Killer Angels" which, as many of you know, is about the US Civil War. There were many almost random events going on outside the control of the generals. If any of these events turned the other way the South might have won the war and I would need a passport to visit my daughter in Virginia.

I have more to say about war but I am spending most of the day watching the Olympics and do not have time now.

Thanks for all the thoughtful posts many of you are writting.



 

"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
Frequent Contributor
WildCityWoman
Posts: 683
Registered: ‎01-18-2007
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Re: Dookhov

Is that the one that came bumbling up to 'Your Excellency' to say, 'Remember! Remember!'

 

He got a french prisoner and stayed in up at the front - was also wounded - so he's making sure 'Your Excellency' knows it, hoping he might be 'promoted'.

 

 

Carly

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=Books
Frequent Contributor
WildCityWoman
Posts: 683
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Re: WCW Garden (off topic)

[ Edited ]

I think it's Vinca . . . it is not variegated leaves.

 

I seem to remember the word 'Vinca' when I was looking up info on the Periwinkle - that was when I was first planting it.

 

My neighbour originally started me on periwinkle - it's just a good plant for places with a lot of shade, like ours is. Then I got some from another person and then I went down to the river and got some from the banks there.

 

The Blue Hat Society - it's a little joke of mine, when I refer to hoity-toity people who do not approve of gardeners who include 'weeds' in their garden plots.

 

Replying to Choisya . . .

 

QUOTE

 

I see that on your website you mention that you have periwinkle (vinca) is it major or minor?  Both types grow well under trees but the minor is prettier with its variegated leaves.  Another good plant under trees is geranium/cranesbill.  It needs very little soil to thrive.

 

What is the Blue Hat Society?  I've heard of the Red Hat Society but not a Blue one. 

 

UNQUOTE

Message Edited by WildCityWoman on 08-16-2008 09:04 PM
Carly

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WildCityWoman
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Re: WCW Garden (off topic)

I'm thinking of starting Book 3 tonight . . .

 

I've watched the film on You Tube right through to where Nikolai gets picked up and Andrey defends Tushkin . . .

 

Carly

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=Books
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Laurel
Posts: 5,747
Registered: ‎10-29-2006
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Re: Dolokhov

That's the one.

 


WildCityWoman wrote:

Is that the one that came bumbling up to 'Your Excellency' to say, 'Remember! Remember!'

 

He got a french prisoner and stayed in up at the front - was also wounded - so he's making sure 'Your Excellency' knows it, hoping he might be 'promoted'.

 

 


 

 

"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
Frequent Contributor
WildCityWoman
Posts: 683
Registered: ‎01-18-2007
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Re: Dolokhov

I know I said I wasn't going to dive right into it, but I've done it anyway . . .

 

I just luuuuuuuuvvvvvvvvvvv Book 3 . . . so far. Listened to 4 chapters tonight.

 

 

 

 

Carly

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=Books
Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: WCW Garden (off topic)

LOL Laurel.  True, but think of it as a conversation WCW and I had when we took our helmets off, put our muskets down and sat down to have a cup of tea and a piece of Tort'Napoleon, which my grandmother had just sent from Moscow:smileyvery-happy:  (See you by the Silver Samovar WCW - bring the vodka!:smileyhappy:.)

 


Laurel wrote:
This sounds like a discussion that could be carried out better at theSilver Samover, not in th emidst of battles. :smileyhappy:

 

Frequent Contributor
WildCityWoman
Posts: 683
Registered: ‎01-18-2007
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Re: WCW Garden (off topic)

Sorry

 

:smileysurprised:


Laurel wrote:
This sounds like a discussion that could be carried out better at theSilver Samover, not in th emidst of battles. :smileyhappy:

 

Carly

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=Books
Frequent Contributor
WildCityWoman
Posts: 683
Registered: ‎01-18-2007
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Re: Some thoughts for those struggling with Book 2

Paul, due to the 'war on terrorism', I would have to get a passport to visit your daughter in Virginia - I'm from Toronto, Canada.

 

We Canucks used to be able to just pass over the border with a few questions - where ya' from, where ya' goin', etc.

 

Now? Gotta' get a passport!

 

Can't say I disagree with the policy . . . it's too darned easy for terrorists to come into Canada, then stroll over the border to the US.

 


PaulK wrote:

I enjoy both the war and the peace parts. I never thought that I was attracted to war books but when I made a list of my favorite books there were many war books on it. I do not like the violent parts but rather the many insights about human nature that the high stress situation of being at war magnifies.

Matt's comments about communication of orders is insightful. I think Tolstoy is brilliant in his ability to convey this. It is a subject that comes through in the great book "Killer Angels" which, as many of you know, is about the US Civil War. There were many almost random events going on outside the control of the generals. If any of these events turned the other way the South might have won the war and I would need a passport to visit my daughter in Virginia.

I have more to say about war but I am spending most of the day watching the Olympics and do not have time now.

Thanks for all the thoughtful posts many of you are writting.


Bromley wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

I just noticed that a bit of a common theme in this thread is that some people were finding Book 2 a bit of a slog.  This is kind of the make or break book for a lot of people.  I think the reason for that is best summed up by an English woman I once knew who said, "My husband and I read War and Peace.  He liked the war bits, but I didn't really like them.  I liked the peace bits, though . . . they were just like a soap!"

 

We might not put it quite that way - but after a whole book of intrigue, inheritance-snatching, ballroom dancing - even just having female characters - Book 2 is quite stark and uncompromising.  It offers no relief of that sort.  We're only left with the soldiers on the battlefield.

 

Which is what makes it hard for some readers, because normally the kind of people who read books about soldiers on the battlefield are men - and a certain type of man at that.  (I'm not really much of a war book fan myself.)

 

So how can you get into this book?

 

The trick is to realise, first of all, that Tolstoy's descriptive style has stayed the same.  So, in the same way that you read the quirkly little details of various people in Book 1 and think, "Wow, I know people like that." Or, "Yes, I'd feel like that too" - in the same way, you'll find that you could relate very much to the people in Book 2 as well.  

 

Yes, there are some chapters where Tolstoy suddnely sounds like a historian, but notice how he often moves (a bit like using a telescope) from a large-scale panorama, down to a slightly closer view, and keeps going over several chapters, until he has put you right in the thick of the action.  It makes it very personal.

 

The other thing to notice (which will come in handy in the second half of the book when you start to get philosophy chapters) is that Tolstoy is trying to make a point about what really happens in wars.  Usually, after a battle, various generals talk about the commands they make and how that helped win the battle.  (As a heads up, that's what you can expect in the last chapter of this book.)

 

But when you actually talk to the soldier on the ground, the story can be wildly different.  The order that the general gave might never have got through.  Or perhaps it did, but something else happened.  So, in fact, all manner of things on the ground can happen that change the course of a battle - none of which have anything to do with what the general commanded.  This is Tolstoy's view of war and, later we find out, of history.

 

So, as you read, have a look out for the orders and commands and plans that are laid by the generals - and then look how different it is in reality.  If you do that, you'll be right on Tolstoy's wavelength here.

 

And, finally, if you can put yourself in the minds of the characters, you'll find it's quite an intense experience.  The war actually becomes a far more terrifying thing than we'd expect from Tolstoy's light style. (Which may not be a selling point for you wanting to read this chapter, but it does tell you how great a novelist Tolstoy is.)  This is far different from most battle scenes that we see in films, where it's really all just action, action, action, guns, guns, guns. 


 



Carly

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=Books
Frequent Contributor
WildCityWoman
Posts: 683
Registered: ‎01-18-2007
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Re: WCW Garden (off topic)

Hee! Hee!

 

Yep! See ya' there!

 


Choisya wrote:

LOL Laurel.  True, but think of it as a conversation WCW and I had when we took our helmets off, put our muskets down and sat down to have a cup of tea and a piece of Tort'Napoleon, which my grandmother had just sent from Moscow:smileyvery-happy:  (See you by the Silver Samovar WCW - bring the vodka!:smileyhappy:.)

 


Laurel wrote:
This sounds like a discussion that could be carried out better at theSilver Samover, not in th emidst of battles. :smileyhappy:

 


 

Carly

http://wildcity.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=Books
Correspondent
rbehr
Posts: 354
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Dookhov

My guess is that Dookhov is a soldier who has earned his spurs by performing well in battle in the past and has gained the respect of professional soldiers by his performance.  Being reduced in rank as punishment for an action wouldn't impact the respect for his performance on the battlefield.  His personality is certainly that of a risk taker - that characteristic gets him in trouble in civilian society and peacetime, but would be admired in a soldier if it produced good performance when in action. 

 


Laurel wrote:
What does everyone think of Dolokhov. He's the one, you'll remember, who did the drunken act on the windowsill at the party that Pierre went to. He was demoted because of the bear incident that fallowed. Whey does he seem to bet such special treatment now?

 

 

Scribe
Laurel
Posts: 5,747
Registered: ‎10-29-2006
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Re: Dolokhov

Something of a Coriolanus?

 


rbehr wrote:

My guess is that Dookhov is a soldier who has earned his spurs by performing well in battle in the past and has gained the respect of professional soldiers by his performance.  Being reduced in rank as punishment for an action wouldn't impact the respect for his performance on the battlefield.  His personality is certainly that of a risk taker - that characteristic gets him in trouble in civilian society and peacetime, but would be admired in a soldier if it produced good performance when in action. 

 


Laurel wrote:
What does everyone think of Dolokhov. He's the one, you'll remember, who did the drunken act on the windowsill at the party that Pierre went to. He was demoted because of the bear incident that fallowed. Whey does he seem to bet such special treatment now?

 

 


 

 

"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
Correspondent
rbehr
Posts: 354
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Dolokhov

You've caught me flat on my literary feet!  I quickly looked up Coriolanus and he seems to be more of an aristocrat by nature and a "man of distinction".  I'd pictured Nolokhov to be more of a adventerous rogue who was calm when in action and well suited to battle.  If I've characterized Coriolanus incorrectly, please update my impression.  

 


Laurel wrote:

Something of a Coriolanus?

 


rbehr wrote:

My guess is that Dookhov is a soldier who has earned his spurs by performing well in battle in the past and has gained the respect of professional soldiers by his performance.  Being reduced in rank as punishment for an action wouldn't impact the respect for his performance on the battlefield.  His personality is certainly that of a risk taker - that characteristic gets him in trouble in civilian society and peacetime, but would be admired in a soldier if it produced good performance when in action. 

 


Laurel wrote:
What does everyone think of Dolokhov. He's the one, you'll remember, who did the drunken act on the windowsill at the party that Pierre went to. He was demoted because of the bear incident that fallowed. Whey does he seem to bet such special treatment now?

 

 


 

 


 

 

Scribe
Laurel
Posts: 5,747
Registered: ‎10-29-2006
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Re: Dolokhov

[ Edited ]

Coriolanus was very competent--a great hero--as a military man, but civilian life was his downfall, especially, in his case, because he was elected a ruler.

 

 


rbehr wrote:

You've caught me flat on my literary feet!  I quickly looked up Coriolanus and he seems to be more of an aristocrat by nature and a "man of distinction".  I'd pictured Nolokhov to be more of a adventerous rogue who was calm when in action and well suited to battle.  If I've characterized Coriolanus incorrectly, please update my impression.  

 


Laurel wrote:

Something of a Coriolanus?

 


rbehr wrote:

My guess is that Dookhov is a soldier who has earned his spurs by performing well in battle in the past and has gained the respect of professional soldiers by his performance.  Being reduced in rank as punishment for an action wouldn't impact the respect for his performance on the battlefield.  His personality is certainly that of a risk taker - that characteristic gets him in trouble in civilian society and peacetime, but would be admired in a soldier if it produced good performance when in action. 

 


Laurel wrote:
What does everyone think of Dolokhov. He's the one, you'll remember, who did the drunken act on the windowsill at the party that Pierre went to. He was demoted because of the bear incident that fallowed. Whey does he seem to bet such special treatment now?

 


 

 

Message Edited by Laurel on 08-18-2008 12:48 PM
"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton