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WildCityWoman
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Re: Homer, audio, and gardening(!?)

Thanks for the list of questions, Laurel . . . I'll pick my way through them later on tonight - gotta' soak in a bubble bath - too much 'Homer, audio and gardening (!?) today - the bones are feeling it.
 
Carly

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WildCityWoman
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Re: Homer, audio, and gardening(!?)



Peppermill wrote:
 
(Re gardening)

You better believe it! I replaced two hand clippers late yesterday (for live branches and for dead ones) and came home and did some work then and again this morning. Didn't even make a dent from all appearances -- although I know that a couple of areas are "on their way" to significant improvement.

It's slow going, I know - I finished taking up all the leaves off my slope (it's hard working on a slope) - luckily, Jeff happened to be sleeping up the driveways and he picked up my piles of leaves, wet and dry.

Now for the rest of the lot - our lot's big - the size of a supermarket parking lot. It's an apartment building - Jeff supers/manages - I'm self-appointed groundskeeper.

Right now I'm justing doing a couple hours a day - when it gets warmer I'm going to be doing my bicycle runs - 40 minutes straight at a time. We live just a ways up from the beach, and there's a long bike trail there.

Gotta' get some weight off.

Anyway, enough about gardening from me - promise.

Ha ha!

 

 

 

Carly

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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso



Laurel wrote:
Finally, after all we've heard about the great hero Odysseus, we get to meet him. Some have talked about Penelope's weakness in not being able to send away a mob of angry young bucks. Does Odysseus seem any stronger when we first see him?

Hey, what do you expect of him when a goddess has him trapped on her island with no way to get off? He's pining for Penelope, but he doesn't have a cell phone or email to get in touch with her and ask her to hop in the Zodiac and come rescue him. Until the gods relent, he's stuck, nothing he can do about it.
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Re: Homer was a woodsman

Fitzgerald translates it
"the island's tip where bigger timber grew--
besides teh alder and poplar, tall pine trees
long dead and seasoned, that would float him high."

And Lattimore:
"to the far end of the island, where there were trees, tall grown,
alder and black poplar and fir that towered to the heaven,
but all gone dry long ago and dead, so they would float lightly."

Maybe Johnson wasn't quite as clear about the trees being dead as he should have been? Generally Lattimore is quite literally accurate, though less poetic than Fitzgerald.

But Lombardo says the trees were "long seasoned and dry," and Fables says the trees were "seasoned, drying for years, ideal for easy floating."

Seems to me pretty clear that they were standing dead trees, which are just what he would want, nicely dry but not lying on the ground getting soft and rotten underneath.

Laurel wrote:
That reminds me of something else about wood.

Then she led him on a path
down to the edges of the island, where tall trees grew,
alder, poplar, and pine that reached the upper sky,
well-seasoned, dried-out wood, which could keep him afloat. --Johnston

If the trees are growing, could they be well-seasoned and dried out?



rbehr wrote:
Homer must have been a woodsman. A friend who camps told me once that if you're lost in the woods, burrow into a pile of dry leaves and you'll keep your body heat up. Odysseus made a wise choice by finding his burrow under the olive bushes and keeping dry and warm and out of the wind.





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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso

One thing I found interesting is line 136 (Greek/Lattimore) where Homer has Calypso (or Kalypso, take your pick) saying of Odysseus:

Lattimore: "I had hopes also / that I could make him immortal and all his days to be endless."
Fitzgerald: "I fed him, loved him, sang that he should not die / nor grow w old, ever, in all the days to come."

This is pretty unusual stuff for Greek mythology, that a goddess would think that she could cheat the Fates and turn a mortal into an immortal.
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The Questions

* When Odysseus reaches Phaiákia, how does he show himself a pious man?
 
He's praying to whoever happens to be listening . . . at this point, he's ready to accept any god.

WHOEVER you may be . . .

"Hear me, my lord,

whoever you may be. I've come to you,

the answer to my many prayers, fleeing

Poseidon's punishment from the deep sea.

A man who visits as a wander

commands respect, even with deathless gods --

just as I've now reached your stream and knees,

after suffering so much. So pity me,

my lord - I claim to be your suppliant."

 

Carly

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WildCityWoman
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Re: The Questions

* One critic has pointed out that Odysseus' trial in the ocean is similar to a baby being born, with him arriving weak and naked, ready for his new life. Would you agree?
 
Oh yes, I'd agree with that. That's like a crazy nightmare.
Carly

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Re: The Questions

1. What is Calypso doing when we first see her?
 
She is in her cave, singing and weaving.
 
With her lovely voice
Calypso sang inside the cave, as she moved
back and forth before her loom—she was weaving
with a golden shuttle. 

Carly

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mlj
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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso

I started reading book five here are some thoughts on what I read so far.

The gods meet again and it is decided that Calypso is to let Odysseus go home, and the messenger Hermes is given the task of delivering the news. We find Calypso at her loom, again proper hospitality is shown here, she gave Hermes ambrosia and red nectar to eat and drink. She is none to happy about the message Hermes delivers, but she will obey. Then we find Odysseus on the beach, homesick and crying in despair, he is at a low point.

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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso

Yes, Everyman . . . that is odd - Calypso surely doesn't have the power to make somebody immortal.

Everyman wrote:
One thing I found interesting is line 136 (Greek/Lattimore) where Homer has Calypso (or Kalypso, take your pick) saying of Odysseus:

Lattimore: "I had hopes also / that I could make him immortal and all his days to be endless."
Fitzgerald: "I fed him, loved him, sang that he should not die / nor grow w old, ever, in all the days to come."

This is pretty unusual stuff for Greek mythology, that a goddess would think that she could cheat the Fates and turn a mortal into an immortal.


Carly

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Laurel
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Re: Homer was a woodsman

Thanks. That sounds more reasonable.

Everyman wrote:
Fitzgerald translates it
"the island's tip where bigger timber grew--
besides teh alder and poplar, tall pine trees
long dead and seasoned, that would float him high."

And Lattimore:
"to the far end of the island, where there were trees, tall grown,
alder and black poplar and fir that towered to the heaven,
but all gone dry long ago and dead, so they would float lightly."

Maybe Johnson wasn't quite as clear about the trees being dead as he should have been? Generally Lattimore is quite literally accurate, though less poetic than Fitzgerald.

But Lombardo says the trees were "long seasoned and dry," and Fables says the trees were "seasoned, drying for years, ideal for easy floating."

Seems to me pretty clear that they were standing dead trees, which are just what he would want, nicely dry but not lying on the ground getting soft and rotten underneath.

Laurel wrote:
That reminds me of something else about wood.

Then she led him on a path
down to the edges of the island, where tall trees grew,
alder, poplar, and pine that reached the upper sky,
well-seasoned, dried-out wood, which could keep him afloat. --Johnston

If the trees are growing, could they be well-seasoned and dried out?



rbehr wrote:
Homer must have been a woodsman. A friend who camps told me once that if you're lost in the woods, burrow into a pile of dry leaves and you'll keep your body heat up. Odysseus made a wise choice by finding his burrow under the olive bushes and keeping dry and warm and out of the wind.








"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Re: The Questions

It's interesting that even the goddesses are weavers.

WildCityWoman wrote:
1. What is Calypso doing when we first see her?
She is in her cave, singing and weaving.
With her lovely voice
Calypso sang inside the cave, as she moved
back and forth before her loom—she was weaving
with a golden shuttle.




"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Re: The Questions

If they weren't, where would they get their clothes? It's just another demonstration of how the gods are really quite human except for thier immortality and super powers. They eat, they drink, they squabble, they have sex, they do ironwork, they drive chariots, they weave ...

Laurel wrote:
It's interesting that even the goddesses are weavers.

WildCityWoman wrote:
1. What is Calypso doing when we first see her?
She is in her cave, singing and weaving.
With her lovely voice
Calypso sang inside the cave, as she moved
back and forth before her loom—she was weaving
with a golden shuttle.







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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso -- Immortality offered humans

When I saw this comment, I tried to think of any human "made" immortal. The story of Hercules was the only one I readily recalled, but I came across this web site in checking myself which others of you may find interesting. I am not certain it presents rigorous scholarship, but it is provocative of some more thoughts on the subject:

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Immortals.html

Everyman wrote:
One thing I found interesting is line 136 (Greek/Lattimore) where Homer has Calypso (or Kalypso, take your pick) saying of Odysseus:

Lattimore: "I had hopes also / that I could make him immortal and all his days to be endless."
Fitzgerald: "I fed him, loved him, sang that he should not die / nor grow w old, ever, in all the days to come."

This is pretty unusual stuff for Greek mythology, that a goddess would think that she could cheat the Fates and turn a mortal into an immortal.
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso -- Immortality offered humans

It's instructional that this book opens with a mention of one of these new-made immortals:

Dawn came up from the couch of her reclining,
leaving her lord Tithonos' brilliant side
--5.1-2, Fitzgerald

Here's Tithonos from the cited site. Quite a sight!

Tithonus 1 Became immortal when his wife Eos (Dawn) asked Zeus immortality for him. But she forgot to ask for youth and he grew old. Finally he could not move his limbs but he was unable to die



Peppermill wrote:
When I saw this comment, I tried to think of any human "made" immortal. The story of Hercules was the only one I readily recalled, but I came across this web site in checking myself which others of you may find interesting. I am not certain it presents rigorous scholarship, but it is provocative of some more thoughts on the subject:

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Immortals.html

Everyman wrote:
One thing I found interesting is line 136 (Greek/Lattimore) where Homer has Calypso (or Kalypso, take your pick) saying of Odysseus:

Lattimore: "I had hopes also / that I could make him immortal and all his days to be endless."
Fitzgerald: "I fed him, loved him, sang that he should not die / nor grow w old, ever, in all the days to come."

This is pretty unusual stuff for Greek mythology, that a goddess would think that she could cheat the Fates and turn a mortal into an immortal.


"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso -- Immortality offered humans

Neat catch!  Thx, Laurel! 
 
Here's Tithonus by Lord Alfred Tennyson.  In Tennyson's 1833 volume of poems, "Tithon" was a pendant to "Ulysses." Tennyson separated the two in a subsequent volume,  See Glenn Everett, Associate Professor of English, University of Tennessee at Martin.
 
 
And modern mythology:  "The Tithonus Error."
 
An Attic image at the Louvre.
 
Not all these links here work, but at least another image and a quotation from Sappho, supposedly discovered in 2004.
 
If you want more on EOS, Dawn....  There is also an entry for Tithonus, but little additional information.
 

Laurel wrote {ed.}:
It's instructional that this book opens with a mention of one of these new-made immortals:

Dawn came up from the couch of her reclining,
leaving her lord Tithonos' brilliant side
--5.1-2, Fitzgerald

Here's Tithonos from the cited site. Quite a sight!

Tithonus 1 Became immortal when his wife Eos (Dawn) asked Zeus immortality for him. But she forgot to ask for youth and he grew old. Finally he could not move his limbs but he was unable to die.

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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Laurel
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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso -- Immortality offered humans

Great stuff! Thanks.

"And after many a summer dies the swan."



Peppermill wrote:
Neat catch! Thx, Laurel!
Here's Tithonus by Lord Alfred Tennyson. In Tennyson's 1833 volume of poems, "Tithon" was a pendant to "Ulysses." Tennyson separated the two in a subsequent volume, See Glenn Everett, Associate Professor of English, University of Tennessee at Martin.
And modern mythology: "The Tithonus Error."
An Attic image at the Louvre.
Not all these links here work, but at least another image and a quotation from Sappho, supposedly discovered in 2004.
If you want more on EOS, Dawn.... There is also an entry for Tithonus, but little additional information.

Laurel wrote {ed.}:
It's instructional that this book opens with a mention of one of these new-made immortals:

Dawn came up from the couch of her reclining,
leaving her lord Tithonos' brilliant side
--5.1-2, Fitzgerald

Here's Tithonos from the cited site. Quite a sight!

Tithonus 1 Became immortal when his wife Eos (Dawn) asked Zeus immortality for him. But she forgot to ask for youth and he grew old. Finally he could not move his limbs but he was unable to die.




"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso -- Immortality offered humans

Good work, Laurel and Pepper. I had forgotten about Tithonus. A good example of what can go wrong when one tries to meddle with the Fates. It never comes out well!
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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso

Whew, it was pretty intense for Odysseus before he made it to dry ground, but you know he had to make it, the story can not end with him drowning at sea.   A good storyteller could have lots of fun with book 5.

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Re: THE ODYSSEY Book 5--Odysseus and Kalypso

Yes, that's one thing you can depend on - the 'hero' of the book isn't going to die/disappear/perish . . . whatever.
 
'Cause if he did, there'd be no book!

mlj wrote:

Whew, it was pretty intense for Odysseus before he made it to dry ground, but you know he had to make it, the story can not end with him drowning at sea.   A good storyteller could have lots of fun with book 5.




Carly

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