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bookhunter
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



goingeast wrote:

I also agree with you that the fault falls completely on Hannah. All she had to do was throw the gun in the lake.



vivico1 wrote:
hey goingeast,
I have to disagree with you on this part, thowing the gun in the lake would not be enough to keep one of those women from getting hurt and maybe killed. Robbie was charging in a state of severe shell shock and was going to kill someone. He came close before, he didnt need the gun, the girls sure did at this point. He wasnt charging to hurt Emmeline just because she was trying to stop them, he heard those very loud fireworks and was back in the war.




I do not know any thing about shell shock other than what we read in the book with Alfred and Robby. It seems that the fireworks caused Robby to "flashback" to being in the war, and he doesn't know what is going on. This happened with him earlier at the street fair. He blacked out and beat up the man.

But in this scene at the lake, he seems to me to still know where he is and what is going on because he says "Kill her..she'll ruin everything." Is that the way someone suffering from shell shock would react? Still aware of what is happening, but perceiving it to be a greater threat than it is?

I agree that Robby was of danger to both women, but was it because he was UNAWARE of where he was and what actions he was taking?

Ann, bookhunter
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


bookhunter wrote:


goingeast wrote:

I also agree with you that the fault falls completely on Hannah. All she had to do was throw the gun in the lake.



vivico1 wrote:
hey goingeast,
I have to disagree with you on this part, thowing the gun in the lake would not be enough to keep one of those women from getting hurt and maybe killed. Robbie was charging in a state of severe shell shock and was going to kill someone. He came close before, he didnt need the gun, the girls sure did at this point. He wasnt charging to hurt Emmeline just because she was trying to stop them, he heard those very loud fireworks and was back in the war.




I do not know any thing about shell shock other than what we read in the book with Alfred and Robby. It seems that the fireworks caused Robby to "flashback" to being in the war, and he doesn't know what is going on. This happened with him earlier at the street fair. He blacked out and beat up the man.

But in this scene at the lake, he seems to me to still know where he is and what is going on because he says "Kill her..she'll ruin everything." Is that the way someone suffering from shell shock would react? Still aware of what is happening, but perceiving it to be a greater threat than it is?

I agree that Robby was of danger to both women, but was it because he was UNAWARE of where he was and what actions he was taking?

Ann, bookhunter


I think the best way to think of it is, he was mixing the two, the fireworks going off, and listen to the description of them going off, bang at this line bang at that line, along with his panic over what was happening and possibly losing Hannah who he seems to need for his own sanity maybe even more than for love, has made him wild. He knows where he is on one hand, but also the war is going off in his head, flight or fight sits in and Emmeline and the enemy become one, so yes shoot her, shoot her, she will ruin everything he was screaming out of the terror of war running in his head and Emmeline threatening to take away his link to sanity.

This is a lot like the insanity defense in murder trials, did they know what they were doing, did they understand the nature of the act, was their mental abilities impaired at the time to know what they were really doing. People kill sometimes and know who they are, can describe it to you and never be able to tell you why tho, or what happened, they just snap. (so now the just snapped thing we hear too much) but this is a really psychotic break for Robbie in that moment. Both worlds collided and he just wanted both of them to stop.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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goingeast
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



vivico1 wrote:

bookhunter wrote:


goingeast wrote:

I also agree with you that the fault falls completely on Hannah. All she had to do was throw the gun in the lake.



vivico1 wrote:
hey goingeast,
I have to disagree with you on this part, thowing the gun in the lake would not be enough to keep one of those women from getting hurt and maybe killed. Robbie was charging in a state of severe shell shock and was going to kill someone. He came close before, he didnt need the gun, the girls sure did at this point. He wasnt charging to hurt Emmeline just because she was trying to stop them, he heard those very loud fireworks and was back in the war.




I do not know any thing about shell shock other than what we read in the book with Alfred and Robby. It seems that the fireworks caused Robby to "flashback" to being in the war, and he doesn't know what is going on. This happened with him earlier at the street fair. He blacked out and beat up the man.

But in this scene at the lake, he seems to me to still know where he is and what is going on because he says "Kill her..she'll ruin everything." Is that the way someone suffering from shell shock would react? Still aware of what is happening, but perceiving it to be a greater threat than it is?

I agree that Robby was of danger to both women, but was it because he was UNAWARE of where he was and what actions he was taking?

Ann, bookhunter


I think the best way to think of it is, he was mixing the two, the fireworks going off, and listen to the description of them going off, bang at this line bang at that line, along with his panic over what was happening and possibly losing Hannah who he seems to need for his own sanity maybe even more than for love, has made him wild. He knows where he is on one hand, but also the war is going off in his head, flight or fight sits in and Emmeline and the enemy become one, so yes shoot her, shoot her, she will ruin everything he was screaming out of the terror of war running in his head and Emmeline threatening to take away his link to sanity.

This is a lot like the insanity defense in murder trials, did they know what they were doing, did they understand the nature of the act, was their mental abilities impaired at the time to know what they were really doing. People kill sometimes and know who they are, can describe it to you and never be able to tell you why tho, or what happened, they just snap. (so now the just snapped thing we hear too much) but this is a really psychotic break for Robbie in that moment. Both worlds collided and he just wanted both of them to stop.





I would have to disagree with you Vivico. Robbie once had his hands around Hannah's neck, but he didn't kill her. So, you're saying it's ok that Hannah killed Robbie because she ASSUMED Robbie was going to hurt one of them. She could have shot the gun away from them to startle them without hurting anyone. In any case, the gun should never have been fired at all. I don't care how threatening Robbie LOOKED.
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


goingeast wrote:


vivico1 wrote:



goingeast wrote:

I also agree with you that the fault falls completely on Hannah. All she had to do was throw the gun in the lake.



vivico1 wrote:
hey goingeast,
I have to disagree with you on this part, thowing the gun in the lake would not be enough to keep one of those women from getting hurt and maybe killed. Robbie was charging in a state of severe shell shock and was going to kill someone. He came close before, he didnt need the gun, the girls sure did at this point. He wasnt charging to hurt Emmeline just because she was trying to stop them, he heard those very loud fireworks and was back in the war.




I think the best way to think of it is, he was mixing the two, the fireworks going off, and listen to the description of them going off, bang at this line bang at that line, along with his panic over what was happening and possibly losing Hannah who he seems to need for his own sanity maybe even more than for love, has made him wild. He knows where he is on one hand, but also the war is going off in his head, flight or fight sits in and Emmeline and the enemy become one, so yes shoot her, shoot her, she will ruin everything he was screaming out of the terror of war running in his head and Emmeline threatening to take away his link to sanity.

This is a lot like the insanity defense in murder trials, did they know what they were doing, did they understand the nature of the act, was their mental abilities impaired at the time to know what they were really doing. People kill sometimes and know who they are, can describe it to you and never be able to tell you why tho, or what happened, they just snap. (so now the just snapped thing we hear too much) but this is a really psychotic break for Robbie in that moment. Both worlds collided and he just wanted both of them to stop.





I would have to disagree with you Vivico. Robbie once had his hands around Hannah's neck, but he didn't kill her. So, you're saying it's ok that Hannah killed Robbie because she ASSUMED Robbie was going to hurt one of them. She could have shot the gun away from them to startle them without hurting anyone. In any case, the gun should never have been fired at all. I don't care how threatening Robbie LOOKED.


I dont think you get what is really happening here, with all due respect. But when he tried to choke her before, she had disturbed him in a fitful dream, when he woke he could stop. This is not what is happening here. He time and time again lets us know of his own concern that he will kill someone yet. He may have already. He knows this himself. And for her to fire that gun into the air is not going to snap him out of it or scare him off, it would escalate what was happening in his head already, guns going off, guns going off, battle, even Hannah had seen enough of him to know, he is not going to stop coming, he is lost. I dont think Hannah ever, ever wanted to kill Robbie but in that moment, it was a matter of who would survive. No the gun never should have been there, but the gun didnt set him off, the fireworks did and his fear did, I am just saying, it was probably at this point, the only thing that saved them from him, he was not going to stop.

Don't we have a war vet in here somewhere? If so, can you help out explain this a bit better? As much as this was not the best book to me that I have read this year, if you follow the sequence of what is happening right then, the fireworks, the timing of them, Emmeline yelling at them, holding a gun, what was happening with Robbie, Ms Morton did a very good job here of explaining what was happening and why it was that way. What do you really think would happen if she through that gun in the lake with Robbie charging them?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Everyman
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Re: Some unanswered questions

Also, I never thought that Hannah really was going to leave Teddy; it said in the book that she went along with the game and the plans that Robbie was making; not that she was really going to go through with it. I feel that she would have reneged and come back after the lake meeting. Her letters were carefully timed after all; even though she was still duped that Grace knew shorthand which we know she did not.

Wow. That's a twist I hadn't even though of. Will be interesting to ask Kate Morton whether she intended that suggestion.
_______________
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goingeast
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


vivico1 wrote:

goingeast wrote:


vivico1 wrote:



goingeast wrote:

I also agree with you that the fault falls completely on Hannah. All she had to do was throw the gun in the lake.



vivico1 wrote:
hey goingeast,
I have to disagree with you on this part, thowing the gun in the lake would not be enough to keep one of those women from getting hurt and maybe killed. Robbie was charging in a state of severe shell shock and was going to kill someone. He came close before, he didnt need the gun, the girls sure did at this point. He wasnt charging to hurt Emmeline just because she was trying to stop them, he heard those very loud fireworks and was back in the war.




I think the best way to think of it is, he was mixing the two, the fireworks going off, and listen to the description of them going off, bang at this line bang at that line, along with his panic over what was happening and possibly losing Hannah who he seems to need for his own sanity maybe even more than for love, has made him wild. He knows where he is on one hand, but also the war is going off in his head, flight or fight sits in and Emmeline and the enemy become one, so yes shoot her, shoot her, she will ruin everything he was screaming out of the terror of war running in his head and Emmeline threatening to take away his link to sanity.

This is a lot like the insanity defense in murder trials, did they know what they were doing, did they understand the nature of the act, was their mental abilities impaired at the time to know what they were really doing. People kill sometimes and know who they are, can describe it to you and never be able to tell you why tho, or what happened, they just snap. (so now the just snapped thing we hear too much) but this is a really psychotic break for Robbie in that moment. Both worlds collided and he just wanted both of them to stop.





I would have to disagree with you Vivico. Robbie once had his hands around Hannah's neck, but he didn't kill her. So, you're saying it's ok that Hannah killed Robbie because she ASSUMED Robbie was going to hurt one of them. She could have shot the gun away from them to startle them without hurting anyone. In any case, the gun should never have been fired at all. I don't care how threatening Robbie LOOKED.


I dont think you get what is really happening here, with all due respect. But when he tried to choke her before, she had disturbed him in a fitful dream, when he woke he could stop. This is not what is happening here. He time and time again lets us know of his own concern that he will kill someone yet. He may have already. He knows this himself. And for her to fire that gun into the air is not going to snap him out of it or scare him off, it would escalate what was happening in his head already, guns going off, guns going off, battle, even Hannah had seen enough of him to know, he is not going to stop coming, he is lost. I dont think Hannah ever, ever wanted to kill Robbie but in that moment, it was a matter of who would survive. No the gun never should have been there,

Don't we have a war vet in here somewhere? If so, can you help out explain this a bit better? As much as this was not the best book to me that I have read this year, if you follow the sequence of what is happening right then, the fireworks, the timing of them, Emmeline yelling at them, holding a gun, what was happening with Robbie, Ms Morton did a very good job here of explaining what was happening and why it was that way. What do you really think would happen if she through that gun in the lake with Robbie charging them?






Vivico wrote:
...but the gun didnt set him off, the fireworks did and his fear did, I am just saying, it was probably at this point, the only thing that saved them from him, he was not going to stop.


So, if the gun didn't set him off and it was just the fireworks, then he was going to kill one of them anyway? I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't have fired that gun. I couldn't murder anyone. They could have run, they could have tackled him, but Hannah did not have to kill him. Sure, it makes it more dramatic, but not more believable. Hannah doesn't have the strength to leave her husband due to scandal, but she's can kill someone with a gun. I understand why the author wrote it, I just don't find it believable based on the character so far. By the way, these are opinions here.
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


goingeast wrote:


Vivico wrote:
...but the gun didnt set him off, the fireworks did and his fear did, I am just saying, it was probably at this point, the only thing that saved them from him, he was not going to stop.


So, if the gun didn't set him off and it was just the fireworks, then he was going to kill one of them anyway? I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't have fired that gun. . By the way, these are opinions here.


If it took four strapping men to hold down my frail stepfather in the throws of a PSTD episode from his war. The idea of these two women getting anywhere near Robbie while he is like this, much less tackle him?? Ok, I give, we just must agree to disagree and I will hope that if someone is out of their mind and intend on killing and is running straight at me, that I have the gun, not you watching. :smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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goingeast
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

But Robbie didn't black out, he was still aware of what was going on around him. He was not charging at Emmeline, he was going to grab the gun out of Hannah hand and shoot Emmeline. If there was no gun, do you think he would have been beating both of them. I do think he was suffering from some PTSD at this point, because of the fireworks and feeling threatened. Yes, he may have hurt one or both of them. I don't think it had to end the way it did. I think the ending was overly dramatic and unbelievable.
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kiakar
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



goingeast wrote:
But Robbie didn't black out, he was still aware of what was going on around him. He was not charging at Emmeline, he was going to grab the gun out of Hannah hand and shoot Emmeline. If there was no gun, do you think he would have been beating both of them. I do think he was suffering from some PTSD at this point, because of the fireworks and feeling threatened. Yes, he may have hurt one or both of them. I don't think it had to end the way it did. I think the ending was overly dramatic and unbelievable.




But wasn't he having a "spell" not knowing what he was doing? He was mistaking Emmeline for men in the war, right?
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


goingeast wrote:
But Robbie didn't black out, he was still aware of what was going on around him. He was not charging at Emmeline, he was going to grab the gun out of Hannah hand and shoot Emmeline. If there was no gun, do you think he would have been beating both of them. I do think he was suffering from some PTSD at this point, because of the fireworks and feeling threatened. Yes, he may have hurt one or both of them. I don't think it had to end the way it did. I think the ending was overly dramatic and unbelievable.


I think it was one of the most believable parts of this book which is full of the unbelievable. I think she probably did some research to, to make this scene exactly what could have happened. If he got to Emmeline, he would have pummeled her, if he got to Hannah, he would have got the gun and shot Emmeline or he or Hannah would have been killed in the fight over it, but he would have knocked Hannah into Tuesday to get that gun. Anyway, I give, I give lol. But I will hold the gun ok? LOL :smileywink: moving on.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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paula_02912
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

goingwast wrote: "The whole shorthand thing is a bit farfetched. First of all, how did Hannah know that after all those years had passed, that Grace still knew shorthand? Shorthand must be practiced much like any other language."

darcymack and goingeast...remember Hannah found out that Grace didn't know shorthand, which made the whole set up so tragic...once she discovered that, she was a little disappointed, but she was able to use that knowledge to her (dis)advantage in the end...knowing that Grace didn't know how to read shorthand, enabled her to go forward with her plan to write a fake suicide note...I believe she did this in the hopes that she would have time to run off with Robbie because Grace would have to take the time to figure out what the note said...unfortunately for her, Grace was suspicious because of her behavior after, I believe she discovered that she was pregnant, and she worried about Hannah, which prompted her to find out what the note said immediately...

reread the top part of page 438 and you will get a sense of why Hannah brought up the fact that Grace couldn't read shorthand...Grace only figured it out later, herself...

As I have thought throughout the entire book...Ms. Morton does not put in information that would be of no use...everything she mentioned is connected and it was very clear to me by the time I got to p. 438 that knowing shorthand would definitely play a part in how the story unfolds...everything has a purpose...to me no inconsequential information was present in the story...
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

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paula_02912
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

Ann wrote: "But in this scene at the lake, he seems to me to still know where he is and what is going on because he says "Kill her..she'll ruin everything." Is that the way someone suffering from shell shock would react? Still aware of what is happening, but perceiving it to be a greater threat than it is?

I agree that Robby was of danger to both women, but was it because he was UNAWARE of where he was and what actions he was taking?"

Ann, I have friends who came back from the Iraqi War who were shellshocked...they go the through the motions of life and when a reminder, though it may seem inconsequential to us, takes them back to that time, their everyday lives meld with the one they were living while in a war zone...I understand completely why Robbie says to kill Emmeline...he saw her as the enemy...and combined with the bursts of the fireworks, the atmosphere reminded him of the bombs going off while he was at war...I am sure he seemed cognizant, but his reality was skewed...who know what happened to him in France...maybe their was an enemy female who helped to capture him and cause him to be harmed...one doesn't know, because it wasn't disclosed in the book...

Maybe Robbie was aware of where he was, but once the fireworks went off it was difficult for him to differentiate between the present and his time in war...he sees a gun combined with fireworks and he was sent back to that time...just like it was at the street fair...he became a totally different person than the Robbie that Hannah loved...she knew that something was wrong with him...not just the fact that he couldn't write anymore, but there was a different side of him that she feared....
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

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paula_02912
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

goingeast wrote: "I would have to disagree with you Vivico. Robbie once had his hands around Hannah's neck, but he didn't kill her. So, you're saying it's ok that Hannah killed Robbie because she ASSUMED Robbie was going to hurt one of them. She could have shot the gun away from them to startle them without hurting anyone. In any case, the gun should never have been fired at all. I don't care how threatening Robbie LOOKED."

goingeast...the politically correct term for "shellshock" nowadays is post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)...I suffer from this and there are times when I am "not myself" because of the situations that I find myself in...there are instances when something that seems innocuous, just throws me back into the time when I was going through complete distress...my reaction was always one of self-preservation...at times I was destructive, not only to myself, but also to others...however, if I am in this state and I go around babies, I can hold them without hurting them...it is hard to explain...so it makes sense that Hannah would think he was going to harm them...after all, at the street fair, Robbie didn't stop beating up the man, but was pulled off by several men, because Hannah (her voice) could not bring him back to the present...she already experienced Robbie while he was going through PTSD, and knowing she couldn't stop him and no big burly men were there to stop him, she did it the only way she had...shooting him...even if she had shot the gun off to the side, it would not have stopped Robbie...to him it would be like someone was firing at him while he was in the war zone...just like the fireworks going off brought him back to that place...so I think that he would have definitely killed Emmeline, primarily because she represented a threat...he might have even turned on Hannah, despite the love he had for her...he may not have recognized her in the end...
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

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paula_02912
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

goingeast wrote: "So, if the gun didn't set him off and it was just the fireworks, then he was going to kill one of them anyway? I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't have fired that gun. I couldn't murder anyone. They could have run, they could have tackled him, but Hannah did not have to kill him."

goingeast, I completely understand why you feel this way...based on how the book is written and the clues given, Robbie would have definitely killed one or all of them...I agree with Vivian in this instance...Do you really think that Hannah, Emmeline or even Grace would really have been able to tackle Robbie, a war vet, stronger male body type...the descriptions of the women, makes them seem frail and weak...Hannah already showed that she couldn't move Robbie when he was going through shellshock...she had to get some big burly men to move him off the guy he was pummeling during the street fair...I think that it would have been more unbelievable for her or any of the women present at the lake to tackle him to make sure he didn't harm them...

I can also see why you say you wouldn't have been able to shoot ("murder") anyone...but, circumstances dictates the actions of those who wouldn't normally do so things...Philosophically, I don't think that I would go out and intentionally murder anyone either, but as a soldier, which I was for 10 years, I would kill anyone, if I had to, who threatened my life...now is that Murder? Hannah dealt with the threat of Robbie harming them in the only way, I think, that someone could when they are protecting themselves or people they loved...

Let me give you this scenario...if someone entered your home while you were sleeping and raped you then tried to kill you, but you were able to get the weapon or you had a gun, would you not try to save/protect yourself or would you let that person do what they wanted with you? What if killing them was the only way to save yourself, wouldn't you do it?
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

Author Unknown
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paula_02912
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Re: Some unanswered questions

BookWoman718 wrote: "In my mind, the book becomes its strongest as it nears the end."

BookWoman718, I agree with your posit...I would take it further to say that, doesn't 98 year old Grace get stronger toward the end? As her burden was lightened she was able to find the strength she needed to move over to the other side as it were...
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

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bookhunter
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


paula_02912 wrote:
goingwast ...remember Hannah found out that Grace didn't know shorthand, which made the whole set up so tragic...once she discovered that, she was a little disappointed, but she was able to use that knowledge to her (dis)advantage in the end...knowing that Grace didn't know how to read shorthand, enabled her to go forward with her plan to write a fake suicide note...I believe she did this in the hopes that she would have time to run off with Robbie because Grace would have to take the time to figure out what the note said...unfortunately for her, Grace was suspicious because of her behavior after, I believe she discovered that she was pregnant, and she worried about Hannah, which prompted her to find out what the note said immediately...

reread the top part of page 438 and you will get a sense of why Hannah brought up the fact that Grace couldn't read shorthand...Grace only figured it out later, herself...

As I have thought throughout the entire book...Ms. Morton does not put in information that would be of no use...everything she mentioned is connected and it was very clear to me by the time I got to p. 438 that knowing shorthand would definitely play a part in how the story unfolds...everything has a purpose...to me no inconsequential information was present in the story...




OK. Paula, you have confused me. The way I read it was that the scene on p 438 takes place AFTER the shooting of Robbie. The reason Hannah states "You don't know shorthand" is because since the shooting she has pieced together Grace's actions and realized Grace had not read the note meant for her, did not know the note for Emmeline was a lie.

The passages on 434-435 (also after the shooting) describe Hannah as telling Grace the story of their romance, but then gradually pulling away from her and looking at her strangely, angrily. Grace did not know at this point that it was because Hannah was figuring out that Grace had not read her note b/c she didn't know shorthand.

On page 457 Grace sees the notes, but cannot read the one in shorthand, that we read on page 468. I thought she assumed the one to Emmeline had the same information. It wasn't until years later she realized she was supposed to NOT take Emmeline to the lake.

Paula, I think what you are suggesting is that Hannah intended Grace to figure out the shorthand letter and bring Emmeline to the lake that evening? Was she counting on knowing that Grace would need to have the note translated creating the delay? I dunno. Whoever translated for Grace would know her secret plan. Or did she MEAN to get caught, after all, because of the Game. She never intended to leave, and getting caught would stop her--she wasn't thinking of the PTSD.

You have me thinking. Sometimes when I get to the end of a book I am reading so fast I skip over important details. I think I will go back and reread these last few chapters.

You are right that Ms. Morton brought together a lot of seemingly inconsequential info--like that Hannah was familiar with guns.

Ann, bookhunter
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goingeast
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



paula_02912 wrote:
goingeast wrote: "So, if the gun didn't set him off and it was just the fireworks, then he was going to kill one of them anyway? I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't have fired that gun. I couldn't murder anyone. They could have run, they could have tackled him, but Hannah did not have to kill him."

goingeast, I completely understand why you feel this way...based on how the book is written and the clues given, Robbie would have definitely killed one or all of them...I agree with Vivian in this instance...Do you really think that Hannah, Emmeline or even Grace would really have been able to tackle Robbie, a war vet, stronger male body type...the descriptions of the women, makes them seem frail and weak...Hannah already showed that she couldn't move Robbie when he was going through shellshock...she had to get some big burly men to move him off the guy he was pummeling during the street fair...I think that it would have been more unbelievable for her or any of the women present at the lake to tackle him to make sure he didn't harm them...

I can also see why you say you wouldn't have been able to shoot ("murder") anyone...but, circumstances dictates the actions of those who wouldn't normally do so things...Philosophically, I don't think that I would go out and intentionally murder anyone either, but as a soldier, which I was for 10 years, I would kill anyone, if I had to, who threatened my life...now is that Murder? Hannah dealt with the threat of Robbie harming them in the only way, I think, that someone could when they are protecting themselves or people they loved...

Let me give you this scenario...if someone entered your home while you were sleeping and raped you then tried to kill you, but you were able to get the weapon or you had a gun, would you not try to save/protect yourself or would you let that person do what they wanted with you? What if killing them was the only way to save yourself, wouldn't you do it?





Yes, I see your point. However, Robbie wasn't just anyone. He was the man Hannah was going to give up everything for. She loved him. Could you shoot someone you love? Could you shoot your son if you thought he might hurt your daughter? How far can you go with someone you love? My only point in all this is that it's out of Hannah's character to do this and that's why I find the story line so unbelievable. There is one other possibility however. Hannah is selfish. All her actions have been selfish. She has bitten off her nose to spite her face before (her father). I could believe that she killed Robbie because she was afraid of him. I do not believe she killed Robbie to save her sister. Only to save herself. It certainly did nothing for their relationship. I didn't read the part where Emmeline was so grateful to Hannah for saving her life, did you? Perhaps Emmeline realized it was a selfish act as well.
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paula_02912
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

Ann wrote: "OK. Paula, you have confused me. The way I read it was that the scene on p 438 takes place AFTER the shooting of Robbie. The reason Hannah states "You don't know shorthand" is because since the shooting she has pieced together Grace's actions and realized Grace had not read the note meant for her, did not know the note for Emmeline was a lie.

The passages on 434-435 (also after the shooting) describe Hannah as telling Grace the story of their romance, but then gradually pulling away from her and looking at her strangely, angrily. Grace did not know at this point that it was because Hannah was figuring out that Grace had not read her note b/c she didn't know shorthand.

On page 457 Grace sees the notes, but cannot read the one in shorthand, that we read on page 468. I thought she assumed the one to Emmeline had the same information. It wasn't until years later she realized she was supposed to NOT take Emmeline to the lake.

Paula, I think what you are suggesting is that Hannah intended Grace to figure out the shorthand letter and bring Emmeline to the lake that evening? Was she counting on knowing that Grace would need to have the note translated creating the delay? I dunno. Whoever translated for Grace would know her secret plan. Or did she MEAN to get caught, after all, because of the Game. She never intended to leave, and getting caught would stop her--she wasn't thinking of the PTSD.

You have me thinking. Sometimes when I get to the end of a book I am reading so fast I skip over important details. I think I will go back and reread these last few chapters.

You are right that Ms. Morton brought together a lot of seemingly inconsequential info--like that Hannah was familiar with guns."

Ann, you have me thinking too...I have to go back again...maybe I am all mixed up, because like you, I sped ahead instead of paying more attention to detail...
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

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paula_02912
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

goingeast wrote: "Yes, I see your point. However, Robbie wasn't just anyone. He was the man Hannah was going to give up everything for. She loved him. Could you shoot someone you love? Could you shoot your son if you thought he might hurt your daughter? How far can you go with someone you love? My only point in all this is that it's out of Hannah's character to do this and that's why I find the story line so unbelievable. There is one other possibility however. Hannah is selfish. All her actions have been selfish. She has bitten off her nose to spite her face before (her father). I could believe that she killed Robbie because she was afraid of him. I do not believe she killed Robbie to save her sister. Only to save herself. It certainly did nothing for their relationship. I didn't read the part where Emmeline was so grateful to Hannah for saving her life, did you? Perhaps Emmeline realized it was a selfish act as well."

You make a good point here about Emmeline and Hannah...I could see how you would perceive Hannah's actions as selfish...
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


goingeast wrote:


paula_02912 wrote:
goingeast wrote: "So, if the gun didn't set him off and it was just the fireworks, then he was going to kill one of them anyway? I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't have fired that gun. I couldn't murder anyone. They could have run, they could have tackled him, but Hannah did not have to kill him."

goingeast, I completely understand why you feel this way...based on how the book is written and the clues given, Robbie would have definitely killed one or all of them...I agree with Vivian in this instance...Do you really think that Hannah, Emmeline or even Grace would really have been able to tackle Robbie, a war vet, stronger male body type...the descriptions of the women, makes them seem frail and weak...Hannah already showed that she couldn't move Robbie when he was going through shellshock...she had to get some big burly men to move him off the guy he was pummeling during the street fair...I think that it would have been more unbelievable for her or any of the women present at the lake to tackle him to make sure he didn't harm them...

I can also see why you say you wouldn't have been able to shoot ("murder") anyone...but, circumstances dictates the actions of those who wouldn't normally do so things...Philosophically, I don't think that I would go out and intentionally murder anyone either, but as a soldier, which I was for 10 years, I would kill anyone, if I had to, who threatened my life...now is that Murder? Hannah dealt with the threat of Robbie harming them in the only way, I think, that someone could when they are protecting themselves or people they loved...

Let me give you this scenario...if someone entered your home while you were sleeping and raped you then tried to kill you, but you were able to get the weapon or you had a gun, would you not try to save/protect yourself or would you let that person do what they wanted with you? What if killing them was the only way to save yourself, wouldn't you do it?





Yes, I see your point. However, Robbie wasn't just anyone. He was the man Hannah was going to give up everything for. She loved him. Could you shoot someone you love? Could you shoot your son if you thought he might hurt your daughter? How far can you go with someone you love? My only point in all this is that it's out of Hannah's character to do this and that's why I find the story line so unbelievable. There is one other possibility however. Hannah is selfish. All her actions have been selfish. She has bitten off her nose to spite her face before (her father). I could believe that she killed Robbie because she was afraid of him. I do not believe she killed Robbie to save her sister. Only to save herself. It certainly did nothing for their relationship. I didn't read the part where Emmeline was so grateful to Hannah for saving her life, did you? Perhaps Emmeline realized it was a selfish act as well.


goingeast, I agree with you that this is out of her character. Like i said, I really dont think she would ever ever want to kill him or anyone. The whole book is leading to this one moment when she has to be tested in a way no one ever wants to be. This is probably the first time, now that I think of it, that she has to make a real life decision and step out of "the game" that she has continued to play with everyone all her life and it was life or death. Paula, you point out also the difference between murder and killing and I think thats important here. And in a way this was probably her first really unselfish act too and it hurt her more than she could nearly stand, but these kinds of games can only end in tragedy. I pray I never have to make such a decision, but I have heard in the news of mother's killing family members to protect their child from something happening to them, even when the danger was not at that very moment as eminent as this was. But this is why I say, this is probably the most believable part of the book, because it was also her first real decision that wasnt part of playing the game. There was no other choice this time, no pretending. Sad huh.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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