Since 1997, you’ve been coming to BarnesandNoble.com to discuss everything from Stephen King to writing to Harry Potter. You’ve made our site more than a place to discover your next book: you’ve made it a community. But like all things internet, BN.com is growing and changing. We've said goodbye to our community message boards—but that doesn’t mean we won’t still be a place for adventurous readers to connect and discover.

Now, you can explore the most exciting new titles (and remember the classics) at the Barnes & Noble Book Blog. Check out conversations with authors like Jeff VanderMeer and Gary Shteyngart at the B&N Review, and browse write-ups of the best in literary fiction. Come to our Facebook page to weigh in on what it means to be a book nerd. Browse digital deals on the NOOK blog, tweet about books with us,or self-publish your latest novella with NOOK Press. And for those of you looking for support for your NOOK, the NOOK Support Forums will still be here.

We will continue to provide you with books that make you turn pages well past midnight, discover new worlds, and reunite with old friends. And we hope that you’ll continue to tell us how you’re doing, what you’re reading, and what books mean to you.

Reply
Contributor
nperrin
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎12-20-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


vivico1 wrote:

Everyman, what is reasonable in adultery? What is reasonable in hiding from everyone your relationship other than knowing its absolutely wrong? Teddy may not have given Hannah grounds for divorce and when she and Robbie talk about that he hasnt, I laughed at this, thinking, HELLO!! YOU are the one's giving TEDDY grounds for divorce! She could have told him the truth and that she was going to leave and he would have got rid of her easily to her shame and maybe his discomfort but not his fault. Its not Grace's fault they fell to their own selfish "love". I put that in parenthesis because real love is not based on sins and lies.




I think the problem here is that although Teddy had grounds for divorcing Hannah, he would never have done so because of the scandal and the problems that would have caused for his career. He could easily have forced her to stay married to him rather than giving her what she wanted, and the only way for her to get away was pretty much running away with Robbie as she planned.
Inspired Contributor
gringorn
Posts: 49
Registered: ‎12-26-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

Hannah does NOT know at the time she writes the letter that Grace can't read shorthand.
Scribe
vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


nperrin wrote:

vivico1 wrote:

Everyman, what is reasonable in adultery? What is reasonable in hiding from everyone your relationship other than knowing its absolutely wrong? Teddy may not have given Hannah grounds for divorce and when she and Robbie talk about that he hasnt, I laughed at this, thinking, HELLO!! YOU are the one's giving TEDDY grounds for divorce! She could have told him the truth and that she was going to leave and he would have got rid of her easily to her shame and maybe his discomfort but not his fault. Its not Grace's fault they fell to their own selfish "love". I put that in parenthesis because real love is not based on sins and lies.




I think the problem here is that although Teddy had grounds for divorcing Hannah, he would never have done so because of the scandal and the problems that would have caused for his career. He could easily have forced her to stay married to him rather than giving her what she wanted, and the only way for her to get away was pretty much running away with Robbie as she planned.



I think Teddy and his sister would have easily gotten Hannah out of the family. There were others who had divorced and his sister would love that. If he did make her stay, I do believe Teddy is quite capable of making Robbie disappear...permanently. The thing to me was tho, the irony that they could lay in bed in each others arms committing adultery and wondering if Teddy could take the fall for them if he was having an affair.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
Wordsmith
Tarri
Posts: 457
Registered: ‎02-26-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


goingeast wrote:

darcymack wrote:
I cannot believe that a secret, such as pretending to be able to read short hand should have caused such an event. I do not believe it is Grace's fault, but the fault lies more with Hannah. Grace had one secret. Hannah had many....starting with learning shorthand, and ending with the affair with Robbie.




Hey darcymack,

I would have to agree with you. The whole shorthand thing is a bit farfetched. First of all, how did Hannah know that after all those years had passed, that Grace still knew shorthand? Shorthand must be practiced much like any other language.

Message Edited by goingeast on 01-15-2008 09:15 AM

Message Edited by goingeast on 01-15-2008 09:21 AM




I took shorthand back in 1970, have never used it, and could still read it and probably even write it --- very slowly.
Contributor
nperrin
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎12-20-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



vivico1 wrote:

I think Teddy and his sister would have easily gotten Hannah out of the family. There were others who had divorced and his sister would love that. If he did make her stay, I do believe Teddy is quite capable of making Robbie disappear...permanently. The thing to me was tho, the irony that they could lay in bed in each others arms committing adultery and wondering if Teddy could take the fall for them if he was having an affair.




Well, Deborah definitely had the chance to push Hannah out of the family if that was what she wanted and she made it pretty clear to Hannah that it was not in the cards--that Robbie would disappear, perhaps, but that Hannah would never be free of the marriage. I don't think of them as wanting Teddy to "take the fall" though. They just knew that Hannah could only get out from under Teddy if she was the one to initiate--either by running away or by suing him for divorce. Even if she had let the scandal break, Teddy probably would have just gotten rid of Robbie and packed Hannah off to the country away from the eyes of society.

I think the interesting thing about the letter is that despite the immediate consequences, Grace seems to feel more guilty about her behavior throughout her service to Hannah than about the shorthand and the misunderstanding. She notes throughout how she should have served her mistress better by protecting her from many bad choices--seeing the spiritualist, seeing Robbie in secret, not being fully prepared for Robbie's illness, not telling Emmeline the truth, possibly even marrying Teddy to begin with. She was always more interested in being loved and valued by Hannah than in giving good advice and truly helping her. Really the shorthand is the same thing: rather than telling the truth, Grace went along with a lie that would endear her to Hannah. It is that behavior that she really seems to feel guilty for throughout.

Also, this is a much more biting guilt than a white lie about learning shorthand, even if that white lie leads, circuitously, to an accidental death. In fact, Grace feels that she spent a life of service failing her beloved half-sister through blind devotion and contributing to the disintegration of her family.
Moderator
dhaupt
Posts: 11,865
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



nperrin wrote:

vivico1 wrote:

Everyman, what is reasonable in adultery? What is reasonable in hiding from everyone your relationship other than knowing its absolutely wrong? Teddy may not have given Hannah grounds for divorce and when she and Robbie talk about that he hasnt, I laughed at this, thinking, HELLO!! YOU are the one's giving TEDDY grounds for divorce! She could have told him the truth and that she was going to leave and he would have got rid of her easily to her shame and maybe his discomfort but not his fault. Its not Grace's fault they fell to their own selfish "love". I put that in parenthesis because real love is not based on sins and lies.




I think the problem here is that although Teddy had grounds for divorcing Hannah, he would never have done so because of the scandal and the problems that would have caused for his career. He could easily have forced her to stay married to him rather than giving her what she wanted, and the only way for her to get away was pretty much running away with Robbie as she planned.





I quite agree with you here. I don't think Teddy would have given Hannah a divorce and had he found out what little freedom she had would have ended.
debbie
Contributor
ashleym919
Posts: 8
Registered: ‎10-10-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

nperrin--

Also, this is a much more biting guilt than a white lie about learning shorthand, even if that white lie leads, circuitously, to an accidental death. In fact, Grace feels that she spent a life of service failing her beloved half-sister through blind devotion and contributing to the disintegration of her family.
--

I completely agree with you. Grace had planned to devote her entire life to Hannah, not only as her servant but as a half-sister though it would never have been spoken out loud. This was her family, and a family is what Grace had longed for her entire life. She loved them all more than she was able to love her own mother or even child it seems.

Grace could never know that one tiny white lie made so many years ago could lead to such disasterous circumstances. She has blamed herself for all their deaths, not just Robbie, since she sees that as the event that ended their will to live.
Moderator
KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter


nperrin wrote:
I think the interesting thing about the letter is that despite the immediate consequences, Grace seems to feel more guilty about her behavior throughout her service to Hannah than about the shorthand and the misunderstanding. She notes throughout how she should have served her mistress better by protecting her from many bad choices--seeing the spiritualist, seeing Robbie in secret, not being fully prepared for Robbie's illness, not telling Emmeline the truth, possibly even marrying Teddy to begin with. She was always more interested in being loved and valued by Hannah than in giving good advice and truly helping her. Really the shorthand is the same thing: rather than telling the truth, Grace went along with a lie that would endear her to Hannah. It is that behavior that she really seems to feel guilty for throughout.


This is an excellent point. How does this guilt inform her relationship with Ruth, though? We know from the beginning of the book that Grace has lied to Ruth about her relationship with John, Ruth's father (saying he gave her the locket, for instance, but she hints that the deception is deeper and that she has painted a rosier picture of their relationship than was true). She told those lies to spare Ruth's feelings. Sounds like she's making the same mistake twice. Is the difference that Ruth was a child when the lies were told?

So maybe we should look to Grace and her relationship with Marcus -- has she done anything differently here? She chooses to tell him the unvarnished truth, revealing her own complicity in the tragedy, right?
Frequent Contributor
hpthatbme
Posts: 81
Registered: ‎02-17-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



darcymack wrote:
I cannot believe that a secret, such as pretending to be able to read short hand should have caused such an event. I do not believe it is Grace's fault, but the fault lies more with Hannah. Grace had one secret. Hannah had many....starting with learning shorthand, and ending with the affair with Robbie.




I am sorry if this has been posted already, but in the book it was stated that Hannah loved secrets. I am in agreement with you that Hannah is at more fault that Grace.
Frequent Contributor
hpthatbme
Posts: 81
Registered: ‎02-17-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



goingeast wrote:


paula_02912 wrote:
goingeast

goingeast, I completely understand why you feel this way...based on how the book is written and the clues given, Robbie would have definitely killed one or all of them...I agree with Vivian in this instance...Do you really think that Hannah, Emmeline or even Grace would really have been able to tackle Robbie, a war vet, stronger male body type...the descriptions of the women, makes them seem frail and weak...Hannah already showed that she couldn't move Robbie when he was going through shellshock...she had to get some big burly men to move him off the guy he was pummeling during the street fair...I think that it would have been more unbelievable for her or any of the women present at the lake to tackle him to make sure he didn't harm them...

I can also see why you say you wouldn't have been able to shoot ("murder") anyone...but, circumstances dictates the actions of those who wouldn't normally do so things...Philosophically, I don't think that I would go out and intentionally murder anyone either, but as a soldier, which I was for 10 years, I would kill anyone, if I had to, who threatened my life...now is that Murder? Hannah dealt with the threat of Robbie harming them in the only way, I think, that someone could when they are protecting themselves or people they loved...

Let me give you this scenario...if someone entered your home while you were sleeping and raped you then tried to kill you, but you were able to get the weapon or you had a gun, would you not try to save/protect yourself or would you let that person do what they wanted with you? What if killing them was the only way to save yourself, wouldn't you do it?





Yes, I see your point. However, Robbie wasn't just anyone. He was the man Hannah was going to give up everything for. She loved him. Could you shoot someone you love? Could you shoot your son if you thought he might hurt your daughter? How far can you go with someone you love? My only point in all this is that it's out of Hannah's character to do this and that's why I find the story line so unbelievable. There is one other possibility however. Hannah is selfish. All her actions have been selfish. She has bitten off her nose to spite her face before (her father). I could believe that she killed Robbie because she was afraid of him. I do not believe she killed Robbie to save her sister. Only to save herself. It certainly did nothing for their relationship. I didn't read the part where Emmeline was so grateful to Hannah for saving her life, did you? Perhaps Emmeline realized it was a selfish act as well.




~I agree with Vivian and Paula here. It was Hannah's sister, the only other person in her immediate family, the only person she could be even somewhat close to.
Reader 2
hasieb
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎12-24-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



KxBurns wrote:

nperrin wrote:
I think the interesting thing about the letter is that despite the immediate consequences, Grace seems to feel more guilty about her behavior throughout her service to Hannah than about the shorthand and the misunderstanding. She notes throughout how she should have served her mistress better by protecting her from many bad choices--seeing the spiritualist, seeing Robbie in secret, not being fully prepared for Robbie's illness, not telling Emmeline the truth, possibly even marrying Teddy to begin with. She was always more interested in being loved and valued by Hannah than in giving good advice and truly helping her. Really the shorthand is the same thing: rather than telling the truth, Grace went along with a lie that would endear her to Hannah. It is that behavior that she really seems to feel guilty for throughout.


This is an excellent point. How does this guilt inform her relationship with Ruth, though? We know from the beginning of the book that Grace has lied to Ruth about her relationship with John, Ruth's father (saying he gave her the locket, for instance, but she hints that the deception is deeper and that she has painted a rosier picture of their relationship than was true). She told those lies to spare Ruth's feelings. Sounds like she's making the same mistake twice. Is the difference that Ruth was a child when the lies were told?

So maybe we should look to Grace and her relationship with Marcus -- has she done anything differently here? She chooses to tell him the unvarnished truth, revealing her own complicity in the tragedy, right?


One of the questions running throughout this book is just how well we can ever know another human being. Grace doesn't truly know her mother because of the secrets her mother keeps. As a matter of fact, she feels upset because she thinks her mother has been more open with Alfred than with Grace. Hannah doesn't really know Grace because Grace is trying to impress Hannah and to hide pieces of herself from Hannah. Ruth doesn't know Grace because Grace keeps her secrets--secrets that are important to Ruth's psychological well-being from Grace's perspective. Grace doesn't understand Alfred because he is keeping information about the scars of the war from her. Grace is honest with Ursula and with Marcus--through the medium of telling stories--stories that no one else is prepared to hear because they are too shocking.
Frequent Contributor
bentley
Posts: 2,509
Registered: ‎01-31-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



hasieb wrote:


KxBurns wrote:

nperrin wrote:
I think the interesting thing about the letter is that despite the immediate consequences, Grace seems to feel more guilty about her behavior throughout her service to Hannah than about the shorthand and the misunderstanding. She notes throughout how she should have served her mistress better by protecting her from many bad choices--seeing the spiritualist, seeing Robbie in secret, not being fully prepared for Robbie's illness, not telling Emmeline the truth, possibly even marrying Teddy to begin with. She was always more interested in being loved and valued by Hannah than in giving good advice and truly helping her. Really the shorthand is the same thing: rather than telling the truth, Grace went along with a lie that would endear her to Hannah. It is that behavior that she really seems to feel guilty for throughout.


This is an excellent point. How does this guilt inform her relationship with Ruth, though? We know from the beginning of the book that Grace has lied to Ruth about her relationship with John, Ruth's father (saying he gave her the locket, for instance, but she hints that the deception is deeper and that she has painted a rosier picture of their relationship than was true). She told those lies to spare Ruth's feelings. Sounds like she's making the same mistake twice. Is the difference that Ruth was a child when the lies were told?

So maybe we should look to Grace and her relationship with Marcus -- has she done anything differently here? She chooses to tell him the unvarnished truth, revealing her own complicity in the tragedy, right?


One of the questions running throughout this book is just how well we can ever know another human being. Grace doesn't truly know her mother because of the secrets her mother keeps. As a matter of fact, she feels upset because she thinks her mother has been more open with Alfred than with Grace. Hannah doesn't really know Grace because Grace is trying to impress Hannah and to hide pieces of herself from Hannah. Ruth doesn't know Grace because Grace keeps her secrets--secrets that are important to Ruth's psychological well-being from Grace's perspective. Grace doesn't understand Alfred because he is keeping information about the scars of the war from her. Grace is honest with Ursula and with Marcus--through the medium of telling stories--stories that no one else is prepared to hear because they are too shocking.




Very interesting summation regarding these troubled relationships and why.
Distinguished Bibliophile
Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Some unanswered questions


paula_02912 wrote:
BookWoman718 wrote: "In my mind, the book becomes its strongest as it nears the end."

BookWoman718, I agree with your posit...I would take it further to say that, doesn't 98 year old Grace get stronger toward the end? As her burden was lightened she was able to find the strength she needed to move over to the other side as it were...
I wonder how much Ms. Morton worked with hospice caregivers to understand care receivers approaching death and translated what she learned into literary constructions. Choisya has suggested the fragmented sentence structures may reflect increasing old age. BookWoman has pointed out that she considers the book to become its strongest as it nears the end. Someone else commented on the lucidity of Hannah's story; still another noted the chaos of the final pages. I noticed, and others may have as well, that there is an effect of life flashing by in the last pages, even though the pieces may come from Marcus and others.
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
Frequent Contributor
paula_02912
Posts: 492
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Some unanswered questions

Pepper wrote: "I noticed, and others may have as well, that there is an effect of life flashing by in the last pages, even though the pieces may come from Marcus and others. "

Pepper this is an interesting view...I didn't think of the ending pages representing Grace's life flashing by...wow...I also think that the way the book ended was in the same way that Grace died...the chapters got shorter, like Grace's time, and they seem to end in a soothing and calm way, very much like Grace's end coming peacefully...does that make sense to you?
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

Author Unknown
Inspired Contributor
JoyZ
Posts: 47
Registered: ‎12-19-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



goingeast wrote:
But Robbie didn't black out, he was still aware of what was going on around him. He was not charging at Emmeline, he was going to grab the gun out of Hannah hand and shoot Emmeline. If there was no gun, do you think he would have been beating both of them. I do think he was suffering from some PTSD at this point, because of the fireworks and feeling threatened. Yes, he may have hurt one or both of them. I don't think it had to end the way it did. I think the ending was overly dramatic and unbelievable.




You have obviously not seen anyone with adrenaline pumping and on the move. I am a nurse and I have seen many patients that have had to be held down by many in order to protect others and themselves. It has even taken 5 people to hold down a child.
Distinguished Wordsmith
Carmenere_lady
Posts: 529
Registered: ‎11-05-2006
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

Well, it appears I'm a little late for this discussion -- I must have dozed off on that comfy couch in the community room. To the point,

all of the posts in this thread are terrific, laying the guilt, shell shock, white lies - ah! white lies. Now why did Grace have to lie in the first place was it to befriend Hannah? Maybe, maybe not. Was it to save her job, prevent a reprimand, save her treasured books? - yup I think so.
I think that, unknowingly, Mr. Hamilton became the catalyst, at least partially, for what happens to Robbie at the end. When Grace began service at Riverton, Mr. Hamilton told her, p21, that she is not allowed to bring in any reading material except the Holy Bible, "any reading material beyond that was most likely injurious and must be presented for his approval or otherwise risk confiscation." Mr. Hamilton did run a tight ship but to what expense?
Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
Distinguished Bibliophile
Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

Or, to generalize further, Linda Sue, to what extent (and why) do we create cultures and societal structures that thwart "truth" saying? Is it excess exaggeration to say truth saying often eludes us, from keeping our (book) purchases private and hidden from someone who might disapprove to keeping critical information on safety and even national defense buried deep within bureaucracies.

But, I continue to resist "butterfly wing" "causes" of events, e.g., that Mr. Hamilton was a catalyst or cause of Robbie's death. To me, such can be a too facile escape from identifying and dealing with more direct causes.


Carmenere_lady wrote:
Well, it appears I'm a little late for this discussion -- I must have dozed off on that comfy couch in the community room.

To the point,all of the posts in this thread are terrific, laying the guilt, shell shock, white lies - ah! white lies. Now why did Grace have to lie in the first place was it to befriend Hannah? Maybe, maybe not. Was it to save her job, prevent a reprimand, save her treasured books? - yup I think so.

I think that, unknowingly, Mr. Hamilton became the catalyst, at least partially, for what happens to Robbie at the end. When Grace began service at Riverton, Mr. Hamilton told her, p21, that she is not allowed to bring in any reading material except the Holy Bible, "any reading material beyond that was most likely injurious and must be presented for his approval or otherwise risk confiscation." Mr. Hamilton did run a tight ship but to what expense?
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



Peppermill wrote:
Or, to generalize further, Linda Sue, to what extent (and why) do we create cultures and societal structures that thwart "truth" saying?

Now that is a really great question.

There were a lot of lies (of commission and omission) throughout this book, some of them very minor (Grace lying about business school), some of them major (Hannah implicitly lying about her affair with Robbie, Grace not telling the truth about what happened at the summer house). I'm sure there were tons of other lies told during the years of the story that we aren't told about, because we are only told the ones that matter to the story. Still, why did any of these people feel compelled to lie? I didn't see anybody in the book who was evil, who was deliberately lying to be mean or vindictive or hurtful. They were all "good" lies, if there is such a thing. But they all made sense at the time to the person telling (or not telling) them. And it is because of the kind of society we have created that they did.
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Bibliophile
Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Some unanswered questions


paula_02912 wrote:
Pepper wrote: "I noticed, and others may have as well, that there is an effect of life flashing by in the last pages, even though the pieces may come from Marcus and others. "

Pepper this is an interesting view...I didn't think of the ending pages representing Grace's life flashing by...wow...I also think that the way the book ended was in the same way that Grace died...the chapters got shorter, like Grace's time, and they seem to end in a soothing and calm way, very much like Grace's end coming peacefully...does that make sense to you?

Paula -- thanks for reinforcing the question -- has Kate Morton consciously been creating broader structural metaphors as well as passages of lyric description with her writing?

I suggested to a hospice chaplain this week that she read this book when it becomes available (or when I am willing to loan my ARC) for its description of bringing a fully lived centenarian life with all its familial dysfunctions to a decent and graceful closure. I said I had never encountered a similar experience in literature. (Suggestions anyone?) And, I added, HAR is not the morbid read that description might make it sound like! It's a good read!
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
Reader
hrnaylor
Posts: 2
Registered: ‎10-04-2007
0 Kudos

Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

One thing that I've noticed throughout this thread for the most part is the reference to Grace's white lie...is it really a lie if Hannah assumed that Grace was taking shorthand lessons?? Just because Grace didn't correct her, is that why it is considered a white lie? Just wondering about that part...but overall, I think it is truly amazing how the author wrote this story and it all tied back ultimately to the incident of Grace and Hannah running into each other in town all those years ago.

There was another comment earlier about how someone thought that Hannah would have shot Robbie anyway, however, if Grace had known shorthand, and read her letter before going to bed, she wouldn't have taken Emme down to the river, and Grace and Robbie would have escaped. The issue of Hannah having to choose Robbie over Emme wouldn't have come up, at least not in the life and death manner. Ultimately Hannah did choose Robbie over Hannah, which is why she agreed to run off with him.

I enjoyed reading this book, and wish I had stayed on track with the threads so I could read them all and contribute to each chapter...unfortunatley I didn't, and the numbers of threads/posts to read are astronomical:smileyhappy: I hope to be a part of the next book, and keep up with this on a daily basis:smileyhappy:
Users Online
Currently online: 15 members 558 guests
Please welcome our newest community members: