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ginger81
Posts: 22
Registered: ‎01-29-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

I loved this story! Unfortunately I was stranded on the interstate for a signigicant amount of time this weekend - on the up side - I had Riverton! I was able to finally finish it. I loved everything about it. Honestly, I don't believe there is one thing I would change.
Who was Ruth's father? I think I missed that somewhere.
Do you think, after Marcus writes his story, that Ursula will put it all together, or do you think she already has an idea?
I agree with several of you who believe it was just a game to Hannah. I don't think she honestly ever "loved" Robbie - but then I am not sure. I kind of feel like the "game" was her life. She killed Robbie for fear that he was going to kill Emmeline - Hannah could not lose another original player. I believe had Emmeline lived and stayed in contact with Hannah (I don't know if that would have been possible) then Hannah would have fought for her life in the end. However, Emmeline's death was the final straw. There was nothing left of her. I also believe she blamed herself for Emmeline's death - she did take away the one thing - Robbie - that Emmeline truly believed in.
GW
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kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter



paula_02912 wrote:
Vivian, you argued your point well here...great insight seen in this reading...I agree that eventually she would get bored because the game would be over...I think that if that had happened, Hannah would definitely have thought of another game...but if she did stay with Robbie, I do have a feeling that she would have had some positive impact on him and get him to go out more or even inspire him to write again...just a thought...





Yes, if she had been a different sort of a person, not the snobbiest brat, looking in every crook and cranny for the tinest crumb of attention for her narristic self. This would have been entirely a different story if she had the slightest interest or felt for anyone besides herself. I am not critizing her, I am explaining her character as Kate wrote it.
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m3girl
Posts: 194
Registered: ‎03-02-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

I think that the little lie about not knowing shorthand lead to the entire story - or the reason for the story needing to be told. If she would have understood the note in the first place Hannah would have been able to escape with Robbie, he would not have died...and perhaps neither would Hannah or Emmeline have died.

As for the lie about adultery - well, I guess I feel for Hannah having to deal with her awful husband, marriage and inlaws....Put in that place I would have found pleasure elsewhere - regardless of the vows of marriage....which in this case were not very defendable. I am not a proponent of adultery - I do find it interesting but do not advocate for it....

Susan
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Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

[ Edited ]
Susan -- I am curious -- exactly what "little lie" do you consider to be "the reason for the story needing to be told", i.e., exactly what is "the little lie about not knowing shorthand"? Why/how is that the "reason for the story needing to be told"?

As I have said elsewhere, it seems to me that there is a big difference between the "secret" or "lie of omission" between Hannah and Grace on the cold day by the school (pp. 115-117), and the continued perpetuation of that misconception by both parties. Grace may have been less than upfront, but Hannah was far from observant. (Hannah practiced shorthand frequently; had she ever seen Grace do so, or asked her some revealing detail along the way? Where did Hannah think Grace got the resources to study shorthand? Did Hannah ever observe Grace gone in patterns that made it seem likely Grace was taking lessons? Did Hannah consider that her first encounter with Grace had been one in which Grace lied to cover for her and her siblings?) It seems to me that Ms. Morton makes that particular contrast between "little lie" and "perpetuated secret/lie" nicely by setting us up with "a little lie" -- the hidden children -- that has negligible consequences -- avoiding "death by romantic poetry" in Hannah's estimation. (p. 115, pp. 34-38)

Several have discussed under the thread "Secrets" what might have been the consequences if the final scenes had gone to a court trial. As some have indicated, Hannah might well have been acquitted on self-defense or defense of her sister. But, the significance of the secret or lie about shorthand (once or perpetuated) seems unlikely to have had a major impact on responsibility or culpability.

Yet, I can see the possibility that this "guilt", this "misunderstanding", this "secret" (whatever each of those is described as being), may have played a significant role in Grace wanting to tell her story, before her death and to Marcus. I am trying to figure out if that is what you are getting at here, Susan.

Postscript -- I think it is interesting to note that, on leaving the pedlar's house, Grace remembers: "I wanted to be far away from that household and its children who thought that I, a common housemaid, was a lady of substance." and then, "...Riverton, I was learning, had changed me. Without realizing, I had grown accustomed to its warmth, and comfort, and plenty...I became determined not to lose them. Never to lose my place as Mother had done." pp. 114-115.

Then, "I tucked the delicious, forbidden object inside my coat lining and hugged it to my chest. My first new book. My first new anything. I had now only to sneak it into my attic drawer without raising Mr Hamilton's suspicions, or confirming Nancy's." p. 115.


m3girl wrote:
I think that the little lie about not knowing shorthand lead to the entire story - or the reason for the story needing to be told. If she would have understood the note in the first place Hannah would have been able to escape with Robbie, he would not have died...and perhaps neither would Hannah or Emmeline have died.

As for the lie about adultery - well, I guess I feel for Hannah having to deal with her awful husband, marriage and inlaws....Put in that place I would have found pleasure elsewhere - regardless of the vows of marriage....which in this case were not very defendable. I am not a proponent of adultery - I do find it interesting but do not advocate for it....

Susan


Message Edited by Peppermill on 02-06-2008 08:52 PM
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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Wrighty
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Hannah's Letter

[ Edited ]
Oops, hit the button twice. Sorry.

Message Edited by Wrighty on 02-07-2008 04:19 PM
Inspired Correspondent
Wrighty
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Hannah


kiakar wrote:
Yes, if she had been a different sort of a person, not the snobbiest brat, looking in every crook and cranny for the tinest crumb of attention for her narristic self. This would have been entirely a different story if she had the slightest interest or felt for anyone besides herself. I am not critizing her, I am explaining her character as Kate wrote it.


I didn't see Hannah as a snobby brat. She was a product of her environment. I do think she was spoiled in many ways and definitely was seeking attention but her life lacked many things as well. She was without a mother and her family wasn't very affectionate. The children were closer to the help than their own relatives. I think she was the type of child who would have loved to climb into someone's lap to be held and hear stories. She was strong willed and curious but that wasn't encouraged at all. In fact it was stifled and she seemed very frustrated and unhappy. She may have been part of an influential family but how much freedom did she actually have? She was a prisoner in her own lavish home. She had goals and dreams and no way to attain them. Being a prim little housewife and running the household was not the future she wanted. She also had in-laws that tried to cause more problems for her. I don't think she took the effects of the affair seriously enough. She didn't realize what could happen. I do think she was excited by the adventure of it and it was similar to the game but I don't think she did it just to use people or for the fun of it. She was very unhappy and she was looking for love and attention and got the best that Robbie could give. That doesn't justify the affair but she shouldn't have married in the first place. I don't know if it would have worked but she and Robbie were trying to make a fresh start. His death was just a tragic accident where everything came together at the wrong time.
Moderator
dhaupt
Posts: 11,865
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Hannah



Wrighty wrote:

kiakar wrote:
Yes, if she had been a different sort of a person, not the snobbiest brat, looking in every crook and cranny for the tinest crumb of attention for her narristic self. This would have been entirely a different story if she had the slightest interest or felt for anyone besides herself. I am not critizing her, I am explaining her character as Kate wrote it.


I didn't see Hannah as a snobby brat. She was a product of her environment. I do think she was spoiled in many ways and definitely was seeking attention but her life lacked many things as well. She was without a mother and her family wasn't very affectionate. The children were closer to the help than their own relatives. I think she was the type of child who would have loved to climb into someone's lap to be held and hear stories. She was strong willed and curious but that wasn't encouraged at all. In fact it was stifled and she seemed very frustrated and unhappy. She may have been part of an influential family but how much freedom did she actually have? She was a prisoner in her own lavish home. She had goals and dreams and no way to attain them. Being a prim little housewife and running the household was not the future she wanted. She also had in-laws that tried to cause more problems for her. I don't think she took the effects of the affair seriously enough. She didn't realize what could happen. I do think she was excited by the adventure of it and it was similar to the game but I don't think she did it just to use people or for the fun of it. She was very unhappy and she was looking for love and attention and got the best that Robbie could give. That doesn't justify the affair but she shouldn't have married in the first place. I don't know if it would have worked but she and Robbie were trying to make a fresh start. His death was just a tragic accident where everything came together at the wrong time.




See this is why I love this forum because we all see things so differently, I happen to however agree with you Wrighty that's exactly how I saw Hannah not a snobby spoiled brat.
Debbie
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Wrighty
Posts: 1,762
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Hannah


dhaupt wrote:
See this is why I love this forum because we all see things so differently, I happen to however agree with you Wrighty that's exactly how I saw Hannah not a snobby spoiled brat.
Debbie



I agree Debbie. I enjoy hearing how other people have interpreted the same story that I've read. It's amazing how different we can be. I also learn a lot from other's on these discussions and pick up a lot more than I would have on my own. There are some books that I like to read for pure pleasure, at my own speed with no pressure. There are other books that I like to read and discuss with a club and really get into the details.
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Hannah



Wrighty wrote:

dhaupt wrote:
See this is why I love this forum because we all see things so differently, I happen to however agree with you Wrighty that's exactly how I saw Hannah not a snobby spoiled brat.
Debbie



I agree Debbie. I enjoy hearing how other people have interpreted the same story that I've read. It's amazing how different we can be. I also learn a lot from other's on these discussions and pick up a lot more than I would have on my own. There are some books that I like to read for pure pleasure, at my own speed with no pressure. There are other books that I like to read and discuss with a club and really get into the details.




I love discussing books on these clubs because they are books you will probably remember a lot longer than those you do not discuss in a club. Because one reason, people do have different opinions and they are aired out and you can remember the story better. Hannah, to me was a spoiled brat because of her actions, her parents doted on her but didn't raise her or give her the proper attention she needed to have a healthy stable life.So she went into her own little world, made by herself because she had little guideness.
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Wrighty
Posts: 1,762
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Hannah


kiakar wrote:
I love discussing books on these clubs because they are books you will probably remember a lot longer than those you do not discuss in a club. Because one reason, people do have different opinions and they are aired out and you can remember the story better. Hannah, to me was a spoiled brat because of her actions, her parents doted on her but didn't raise her or give her the proper attention she needed to have a healthy stable life.So she went into her own little world, made by herself because she had little guideness.



Even though our opinions of her are a bit different we seem to agree on the reasons for her behavior. Money isn't everything is it? It didn't do her much good.

I have a totally different outlook on a book that I've done with a club compared to if I had read it on my own. I sometimes get tunnel vision and may just whisk through a book without thinking about it much (which isn't always a bad thing) but in a discussion I hear some great opinions and interpretations. Many things get brought up that I hadn't even thought of. I especially like when the authors can join us and answer our questions. I think that is so cool! :smileysurprised: :smileyvery-happy:
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Hannah



Wrighty wrote:

kiakar wrote:
I love discussing books on these clubs because they are books you will probably remember a lot longer than those you do not discuss in a club. Because one reason, people do have different opinions and they are aired out and you can remember the story better. Hannah, to me was a spoiled brat because of her actions, her parents doted on her but didn't raise her or give her the proper attention she needed to have a healthy stable life.So she went into her own little world, made by herself because she had little guideness.



Even though our opinions of her are a bit different we seem to agree on the reasons for her behavior. Money isn't everything is it? It didn't do her much good.

I have a totally different outlook on a book that I've done with a club compared to if I had read it on my own. I sometimes get tunnel vision and may just whisk through a book without thinking about it much (which isn't always a bad thing) but in a discussion I hear some great opinions and interpretations. Many things get brought up that I hadn't even thought of. I especially like when the authors can join us and answer our questions. I think that is so cool! :smileysurprised: :smileyvery-happy:




You are so right, Debbie!
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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Hannah


kiakar wrote:


Wrighty wrote:

kiakar wrote:
I love discussing books on these clubs because they are books you will probably remember a lot longer than those you do not discuss in a club. Because one reason, people do have different opinions and they are aired out and you can remember the story better. Hannah, to me was a spoiled brat because of her actions, her parents doted on her but didn't raise her or give her the proper attention she needed to have a healthy stable life.So she went into her own little world, made by herself because she had little guideness.



Even though our opinions of her are a bit different we seem to agree on the reasons for her behavior. Money isn't everything is it? It didn't do her much good.

I have a totally different outlook on a book that I've done with a club compared to if I had read it on my own. I sometimes get tunnel vision and may just whisk through a book without thinking about it much (which isn't always a bad thing) but in a discussion I hear some great opinions and interpretations. Many things get brought up that I hadn't even thought of. I especially like when the authors can join us and answer our questions. I think that is so cool! :smileysurprised: :smileyvery-happy:




You are so right, Debbie!


lol, ok you two, still hashing it out are you? hehe. I still say, as for fault in the killing, and its a killing not a murder as some say, that if its not just a horrible accident, and any blame can be placed, it lies squarely with Hannah and Robbie. Their affair brought them to this moment. I don't care if she was spoiled or not spoiled, stubborn is more like it, selfish even, but it doesnt matter. Doesnt matter what made her that way, if she was any of those things, doesnt matter if she was lonely,lonely is not an excuse for adultery. Adultery is a choice. There may be many things you can look at to say why you did it, and being lonely may be one of them but still, its a choice, and in life all our choices have consequences. If what you do promotes lying, cheating and secrecy and gain at the expense of others, something too that can't be shared in the light of day, then you have to be willing to deal with any and all consequences that come out of it. You may think you can too and things will turn out ok but relationships born in secrecy rarely have a good ending. Same goes for Robbie, he made the same choices Hannah did and it doesnt matter if he suffers from shell shock or not, that doesnt keep him from knowing what he is doing with Hannah is completely wrong. So we come to this terrible night. It doesnt matter if Grace lied by omission about being able to read shorthand or not. She has enough guilt of her own for her own secret way of going about getting a relationship she wants and in reality it ends the same way because there was so little truth in how she was obtaining it, or trying to. In the end, that relationship dies too so she has her own ghosts but one of them is not the fate of that night. This didnt happen because Grace lied about reading shorthand, this happened because two people made the same secret pact, that was going to hurt everyone around them but they didnt care, they chose to continue and unfortunately, it cost one of them his life. Its not a new story or idea. Robbie is not the first dead lover of a married person. He won't be the last and when we let them off as it not being their fault but someone else's, Graces, Em's, the man who brought the gun, we romantically condone what they did and the same story continues to play out all over the world. We can say, yes but we all make mistakes and some are this bad but that doesnt deserve to be shot dead over it. But tell me this, is killing the body so much worse than killing the spirit, or not one but in this case many? Many societies, including ours if you go back far enough, would say adultery does deserve death because of the destruction it causes people and families for this life and for some maybe even the next. I don't say yeah, he deserved it but I do say, he and Hannah are the only ones to blame for this no matter what others did or what they thought they should do. You just can't lay the blame on others for their actions.Lord knows I have committed my own mistakes and lost people I never ever wanted to but I still know I chose to do what I did. I find it incredible that people can blame Grace 's lie about reading shorthand, and therefore not being able to read it to "keep them safe in their own destructive activity", for this happening.

Well anyway, the whole book was full of depressing people topped of with a nice little happy family reunion at the end, just for good measure tho. Too little, too late. It was like that was thrown in just in case the rest of the book didnt sell without it. And can anyone here tell me that anything in this book was a mystery or surprise other than Grace couldnt read shorthand to know what was happening anyway? NOTHING else was a surprise was it? We spent forever those first days, trying to create mysteries for this or that because we didnt want to believe we already know what was going to happen and how and pretty much by whom so early in the game. If you werent sure, wasnt long until you read the first page of this chapter or that and the author told us right there what happens in advance. We knew the ending in advance, ok those stories can work, if you dont explain all the other mysteries along the way before the reader gets to them too! Where would you shelve this book in a bookstore? Couldnt be murder mystery, we know who and where as part of the enticement to read it. It wouldnt be suspense,the author takes that away every single time she tells you the outcome of things and then goes back to explain, that knocks the suspense right out of it. To me that leaves only, Historical Fiction, subcategory drama. I really think this would make a better movie than a novel because I bet you ten to one that in doing the dramatization of it, they would not let this story keep going back and forth telling the "mysteries" before you got to them. They would leave the main one in. Maybe start with the killing and then back up to it with old Grace telling it as it goes or they may not even let you know that except with the book out, it would be hard to hide but be a much better ending if you didnt see it coming. Then the part of the shorthand could be played up more dramatically too. Ok, I wrote an opus but its late, no one on the boards on a friday night to talk to lol and this one is really over other than being here for the few wanting to come back to talk like you two, my buddies :smileywink: or those working up to this. Kiakar, we will always have to agree to disagree about how many stars this book deserves. For me, to give this book 5 stars, leaves no room for improvement of the parts that really need to be tightened up and compared to other books of similar genre, it just fails too often to merit 5. If I gave this book a 5, then Water for Elephants would be have to be on a different scale all together because it was a story told backwards in time that just is so much better than this one that they cant both be 5's.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Hannah



vivico1 wrote:

kiakar wrote:


Wrighty wrote:

kiakar wrote:
I love discussing books on these clubs because they are books you will probably remember a lot longer than those you do not discuss in a club. Because one reason, people do have different opinions and they are aired out and you can remember the story better. Hannah, to me was a spoiled brat because of her actions, her parents doted on her but didn't raise her or give her the proper attention she needed to have a healthy stable life.So she went into her own little world, made by herself because she had little guideness.



Even though our opinions of her are a bit different we seem to agree on the reasons for her behavior. Money isn't everything is it? It didn't do her much good.

I have a totally different outlook on a book that I've done with a club compared to if I had read it on my own. I sometimes get tunnel vision and may just whisk through a book without thinking about it much (which isn't always a bad thing) but in a discussion I hear some great opinions and interpretations. Many things get brought up that I hadn't even thought of. I especially like when the authors can join us and answer our questions. I think that is so cool! :smileysurprised: :smileyvery-happy:




You are so right, Debbie!


lol, ok you two, still hashing it out are you? hehe. I still say, as for fault in the killing, and its a killing not a murder as some say, that if its not just a horrible accident, and any blame can be placed, it lies squarely with Hannah and Robbie. Their affair brought them to this moment. I don't care if she was spoiled or not spoiled, stubborn is more like it, selfish even, but it doesnt matter. Doesnt matter what made her that way, if she was any of those things, doesnt matter if she was lonely,lonely is not an excuse for adultery. Adultery is a choice. There may be many things you can look at to say why you did it, and being lonely may be one of them but still, its a choice, and in life all our choices have consequences. If what you do promotes lying, cheating and secrecy and gain at the expense of others, something too that can't be shared in the light of day, then you have to be willing to deal with any and all consequences that come out of it. You may think you can too and things will turn out ok but relationships born in secrecy rarely have a good ending. Same goes for Robbie, he made the same choices Hannah did and it doesnt matter if he suffers from shell shock or not, that doesnt keep him from knowing what he is doing with Hannah is completely wrong. So we come to this terrible night. It doesnt matter if Grace lied by omission about being able to read shorthand or not. She has enough guilt of her own for her own secret way of going about getting a relationship she wants and in reality it ends the same way because there was so little truth in how she was obtaining it, or trying to. In the end, that relationship dies too so she has her own ghosts but one of them is not the fate of that night. This didnt happen because Grace lied about reading shorthand, this happened because two people made the same secret pact, that was going to hurt everyone around them but they didnt care, they chose to continue and unfortunately, it cost one of them his life. Its not a new story or idea. Robbie is not the first dead lover of a married person. He won't be the last and when we let them off as it not being their fault but someone else's, Graces, Em's, the man who brought the gun, we romantically condone what they did and the same story continues to play out all over the world. We can say, yes but we all make mistakes and some are this bad but that doesnt deserve to be shot dead over it. But tell me this, is killing the body so much worse than killing the spirit, or not one but in this case many? Many societies, including ours if you go back far enough, would say adultery does deserve death because of the destruction it causes people and families for this life and for some maybe even the next. I don't say yeah, he deserved it but I do say, he and Hannah are the only ones to blame for this no matter what others did or what they thought they should do. You just can't lay the blame on others for their actions.Lord knows I have committed my own mistakes and lost people I never ever wanted to but I still know I chose to do what I did. I find it incredible that people can blame Grace 's lie about reading shorthand, and therefore not being able to read it to "keep them safe in their own destructive activity", for this happening.

Well anyway, the whole book was full of depressing people topped of with a nice little happy family reunion at the end, just for good measure tho. Too little, too late. It was like that was thrown in just in case the rest of the book didnt sell without it. And can anyone here tell me that anything in this book was a mystery or surprise other than Grace couldnt read shorthand to know what was happening anyway? NOTHING else was a surprise was it? We spent forever those first days, trying to create mysteries for this or that because we didnt want to believe we already know what was going to happen and how and pretty much by whom so early in the game. If you werent sure, wasnt long until you read the first page of this chapter or that and the author told us right there what happens in advance. We knew the ending in advance, ok those stories can work, if you dont explain all the other mysteries along the way before the reader gets to them too! Where would you shelve this book in a bookstore? Couldnt be murder mystery, we know who and where as part of the enticement to read it. It wouldnt be suspense,the author takes that away every single time she tells you the outcome of things and then goes back to explain, that knocks the suspense right out of it. To me that leaves only, Historical Fiction, subcategory drama. I really think this would make a better movie than a novel because I bet you ten to one that in doing the dramatization of it, they would not let this story keep going back and forth telling the "mysteries" before you got to them. They would leave the main one in. Maybe start with the killing and then back up to it with old Grace telling it as it goes or they may not even let you know that except with the book out, it would be hard to hide but be a much better ending if you didnt see it coming. Then the part of the shorthand could be played up more dramatically too. Ok, I wrote an opus but its late, no one on the boards on a friday night to talk to lol and this one is really over other than being here for the few wanting to come back to talk like you two, my buddies :smileywink: or those working up to this. Kiakar, we will always have to agree to disagree about how many stars this book deserves. For me, to give this book 5 stars, leaves no room for improvement of the parts that really need to be tightened up and compared to other books of similar genre, it just fails too often to merit 5. If I gave this book a 5, then Water for Elephants would be have to be on a different scale all together because it was a story told backwards in time that just is so much better than this one that they cant both be 5's.





Well, If I was rating the water for elephant by Sarah Greun I would have to go higher than a Five. It would have to be at least a ten scale. And then it would be 10.
Inspired Correspondent
Wrighty
Posts: 1,762
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Hannah


kiakar wrote:

vivico1 wrote:
For me, to give this book 5 stars, leaves no room for improvement of the parts that really need to be tightened up and compared to other books of similar genre, it just fails too often to merit 5. If I gave this book a 5, then Water for Elephants would be have to be on a different scale all together because it was a story told backwards in time that just is so much better than this one that they cant both be 5's.


Well, If I was rating the water for elephant by Sarah Greun I would have to go higher than a Five. It would have to be at least a ten scale. And then it would be 10.



I think I'm somewhere in the middle of how the two of you feel about this book. I don't read much from this time period so I liked it more than I thought I would although it was too long for me. We all have our own likes and dislikes, we won't all rate it the same but that's a good thing. :smileyhappy:

I agree that Hannah and Robbie brought themselves to the moment of the shooting. In my opinion it was basically an accident, a tragedy of circumstances and no one deserved to die. I agree with some of what Viv said about their adulterous affair but not all of it. I thought it was wrong but I don't believe that they had intentions of having an affair to begin with. I also think that they did care about people other than themselves or they wouldn't have kept it a secret. They would have done what they wanted, where they wanted and left much earlier without coming up with a plan to escape (although not a very good plan at all). Hannah shouldn't have had the affair but she shouldn't stay in a bad marriage either. She shouldn't have even married him to begin with but she did. She chose poorly.

"We can say, yes but we all make mistakes and some are this bad but that doesnt deserve to be shot dead over it. But tell me this, is killing the body so much worse than killing the spirit, or not one but in this case many? Many societies, including ours if you go back far enough, would say adultery does deserve death because of the destruction it causes people and families for this life and for some maybe even the next. I don't say yeah, he deserved it but I do say, he and Hannah are the only ones to blame for this no matter what others did or what they thought they should do. You just can't lay the blame on others for their actions.Lord knows I have committed my own mistakes and lost people I never ever wanted to but I still know I chose to do what I did. I find it incredible that people can blame Grace 's lie about reading shorthand, and therefore not being able to read it to "keep them safe in their own destructive activity", for this happening."

I felt that Hannah and Robbie didn't think enough about the consequences of their actions but I think there were several others who did think about their choices and knew they would hurt others because of them. Some people made choices to hurt people intentionally. Teddy's sister Deborah was one of the worst offenders and she enjoyed hurting others, especially Hannah. She may have claimed loyalty to the family but I thought she was cruel and looked for ways to harm others. She was the ultimate in selfishness. Her actions may not have equaled an affair but does that make her a better person? She caused destruction for other people and family. I think she was far worse because her actions were intentional. She chose to do it and she liked it.

"And can anyone here tell me that anything in this book was a mystery or surprise..."

I didn't feel that there was no mystery in this book. There were many things that we figured out ahead of time because we were led to that conclusion but we weren't given everything outright. We may just be a really smart bunch! :smileywink: I wouldn't have even thought about it as much if we weren't in a large discussion and had people putting it all together so quickly and so well. I've read many, many books with mystery, suspense and drama involved and I don't mind if it's not all revealed until the end. Getting answers along the way is part of the story and it's the way it was told in this situation.
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vivico1
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Re: Hannah


Wrighty wrote:

kiakar wrote:

vivico1 wrote:
For me, to give this book 5 stars, leaves no room for improvement of the parts that really need to be tightened up and compared to other books of similar genre, it just fails too often to merit 5. If I gave this book a 5, then Water for Elephants would be have to be on a different scale all together because it was a story told backwards in time that just is so much better than this one that they cant both be 5's.


Well, If I was rating the water for elephant by Sarah Greun I would have to go higher than a Five. It would have to be at least a ten scale. And then it would be 10.



I think I'm somewhere in the middle of how the two of you feel about this book. I don't read much from this time period so I liked it more than I thought I would although it was too long for me. We all have our own likes and dislikes, we won't all rate it the same but that's a good thing. :smileyhappy:

I agree that Hannah and Robbie brought themselves to the moment of the shooting. In my opinion it was basically an accident, a tragedy of circumstances and no one deserved to die. I agree with some of what Viv said about their adulterous affair but not all of it. I thought it was wrong but I don't believe that they had intentions of having an affair to begin with. I also think that they did care about people other than themselves or they wouldn't have kept it a secret. They would have done what they wanted, where they wanted and left much earlier without coming up with a plan to escape (although not a very good plan at all). Hannah shouldn't have had the affair but she shouldn't stay in a bad marriage either. She shouldn't have even married him to begin with but she did. She chose poorly.

"We can say, yes but we all make mistakes and some are this bad but that doesnt deserve to be shot dead over it. But tell me this, is killing the body so much worse than killing the spirit, or not one but in this case many? Many societies, including ours if you go back far enough, would say adultery does deserve death because of the destruction it causes people and families for this life and for some maybe even the next. I don't say yeah, he deserved it but I do say, he and Hannah are the only ones to blame for this no matter what others did or what they thought they should do. You just can't lay the blame on others for their actions.Lord knows I have committed my own mistakes and lost people I never ever wanted to but I still know I chose to do what I did. I find it incredible that people can blame Grace 's lie about reading shorthand, and therefore not being able to read it to "keep them safe in their own destructive activity", for this happening."

I felt that Hannah and Robbie didn't think enough about the consequences of their actions but I think there were several others who did think about their choices and knew they would hurt others because of them. Some people made choices to hurt people intentionally. Teddy's sister Deborah was one of the worst offenders and she enjoyed hurting others, especially Hannah. She may have claimed loyalty to the family but I thought she was cruel and looked for ways to harm others. She was the ultimate in selfishness. Her actions may not have equaled an affair but does that make her a better person? She caused destruction for other people and family. I think she was far worse because her actions were intentional. She chose to do it and she liked it.

"And can anyone here tell me that anything in this book was a mystery or surprise..."

I didn't feel that there was no mystery in this book. There were many things that we figured out ahead of time because we were led to that conclusion but we weren't given everything outright. We may just be a really smart bunch! :smileywink: I wouldn't have even thought about it as much if we weren't in a large discussion and had people putting it all together so quickly and so well. I've read many, many books with mystery, suspense and drama involved and I don't mind if it's not all revealed until the end. Getting answers along the way is part of the story and it's the way it was told in this situation.


Your right that Teddy's sister was basically a you know what! She loved hurting people, being one up, having stuff on you, being one up, etc. She hurt people. Is she better than they are because she didnt have an adulterous affair, no, she is as bad. Neither deserve death, but both are highly destructive and immoral action. The thing is, what she does will seldom put a person in the highly volatile situation where one will be killed. Adultery can bring it on a lot and does, deserved or not. To say they are not as bad because they didnt intent to have an affair and she intends all she does, well I have to disagree on their intent. No one falls into a bed with someone, adulterous or not, its really not what so many want to say of "well it just happened". It truly is not. It takes a series of steps to get there and you are making little decisions and choices all along, anyone of which can be a stopping point for you.

This is something so important too to make sure our kids understand about having sex, it doesn't just happen. There actually is intent, just smaller steps and you can know it recognize them and stop. They knew it, they were adults, they knew what they were doing when they even just flirted. It lead exactly where they let it go. Did they intend to hurt someone? Thats not an excuse either, most of us doing intend to hurt anyone but when you are someone who wants what you want and dont want to stop and think about that, it doesnt matter. They even weighed how this could hurt Emmeline, both of them did, several different times. Teddy, they didnt care about. How they could hurt each other or anyone else around them, they didnt weigh because they were caught up in what they want.

If someone gets in a car drunk to drive home and runs over and kills someone, I am sure they didnt mean to kill someone, furthest thing from their mind but we dont let them off (well unfortunately sometimes we do). It is not about their intent, its about their actions and they chose those each step of the way until they were so impaired they werent thinking straight. That may be the biggest reason why we have legal and moral laws, because if we dont obey them, we will eventually reach a point where our thinking is impaired by our desires. The drunk decided to go out and drink, he decided he wanted one more, he decided he would do the driving, he knew what could happen before and up to a point until he poured himself into a car. Hannah and Robbie knew what they were doing and t that it was wrong and could be destructive up until maybe they were so impaired by their own needs, they just didnt feel it was going to happen. Some states want to hold the bartender responsible for continuing to sell someone drinking, more drinks, when they then go out and kill someone, because they are doing it to make more money and further their own agenda, the business. I think there could be a case made in some instances but its really the person's responsibility, we shouldn't go out and decide, I am going to drink whatever I want and its not up to me to stop, I dont have to worry about it because the bartender has to know when I need to be cut off. This really lets the drinker off the hook and some drinkers you just dont know that one drink will hit them, to blame a bartender isnt right. If so, then yeah, blame Grace for this accident because she was Hannah's enabler in all this, keeping her secrets, helping her to meet him all in hopes of her own agenda, having Hannah care about her as a sister, rather than loving Hannah enough to do what is right, even at the cost of her own job. Some say its her fault, some say she couldnt stop it because she was being a good servant. But was she being a good person, good friend to let Hannah drown herself, just because she wanted Hannah to like her? I won't lay the blame on her for this tho because she paid for her own folly and lost what she desired.

Robbie and Hannah doing 'fall into this', they know each step of the way what is happening and weigh others feelings against their own. It was a horrible accident, but as far as cause or guilt, you play, you pay. That may sound harsh or unromantic, and it is, but its real and true. And you know what is more romantic than illicit love? Love grounded in the real and in the truth and something you can share with all the world because its right. That doesnt appeal to our fantasies tho, and hey I have plenty of fantasies but I have learned as many have, fantasies must stay that if you want a real shot at life or love. But this is what I have learned in fictional novels I have read this last year with you guys, cause you know I used to read mostly nonfiction - no romance novel I have read so far does not involve two people who can have each other without hurting someone else or being in an affair first to to it. Is it ok because its fiction and feeds our fantasies, I guess so but it feeds our desire or want to make those ok things to do too if your not happy. Its also easier to take when you are not honestly debating the rights or wrongs of it in a club lol.

As for the mystery of this book and you not having thought of some of the things without all the people in this club figuring things out...come on wrighty, I know you better than that and your a smart cookie! This book was a given, where you really surprised by anything except the secret of the shorthand being important to Hannah? You say the mystery wasnt given to us outright, it was. A lot of times it was. Now your making me look up my book again lol, because this author really hacked me off by how much she kept giving away right out and I felt like she herself was leaning over my shoulder going, the butler did it! AHH. OK let me find the one that got me the most, cause I already knew who was going to be killed, where and by who, so I was hoping she would give me the little things and there was one page that just made me so mad that she wrote it, I read the next page and thought why didnt you just start here so I could have the story unfold? You just told me what the next chapter or two is going to be which makes them already not as exciting in an already overly long book! At the end of the chapter, The Dinner, I was at least thinking, well, this could be interesting, Hannah and Teddie, I wonder how this will play out, could they hook up, hmm, so she actually had my interest there for a moment and I wanted to see how it played out. THEN read the first page of the next chapter, right in my mid wondering thoughts lol, page 230, "Hannah and Teddy were married" then down in the page,"You are surprised. For how could such a thing have come to pass?" AAHHHHH YES, i was wondering until you just said it right out thank you very much!!! Then she backs up for the umpteenth time on page 231 to begin to tell us that story. Why. I would love to cut about 50 pages minimum out of this book, but if it could be only one, look at that page and then read the next. IF you rip out page 230 and start on page 231, it flows perfectly from the previous chapter, picks up again right after the dinner and then takes us through the story of how they get together, letting it build towards that outcome which is so so much better than just telling us right up front and backing up again. It was a "the butler did it" page! If you took out just those pages where she does that, I might even give it another star lol. Nothing was a mystery and I found myself as bored as the character of old Grace was boring. By the time we get to the letters and it being a big shocker, I thought,so, what did you think would happen, duh! I really dislike this book the more I think about it huh LOL :smileywink:

I also wished the author would have addressed some of the comments that were made politely but were not so agreeable with her book, than she did. She just pretty much skipped those questions and went on to the flattering ones. This is another reason I like the full month with an author book, they get to talk to you on the other threads too and not just the Q&A one and we really get to know them and they will address things you ask them that are very flattering or those saying, what the heck was that all about LOL! And we have done some of both of that with the same author and came away with really good feelings about the authors even if we didnt like the book or we liked the book better than we thought when they explained what they were thinking at that part, it made it come alive more then. I love that kind of dialogue with them.
Vivian
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Wrighty
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Re: Hannah



vivico1 wrote:

 No one falls into a bed with someone, adulterous or not, its really not what so many want to say of "well it just happened". It truly is not. It takes a series of steps to get there and you are making little decisions and choices all along, anyone of which can be a stopping point for you.

I agree they had choices. I don't think they initially meant to have the affair and they never meant to hurt anyone. Hannah didn't marry knowing she would have an affair someday. They did go through with it though and even if they were temporarily happy it never corrected any of their problems it just complicated everything and made them more unhappy.


If someone gets in a car drunk to drive home and runs over and kills someone, I am sure they didnt mean to kill someone, furthest thing from their mind but we dont let them off (well unfortunately sometimes we do). It is not about their intent, its about their actions and they chose those each step of the way until they were so impaired they werent thinking straight. That may be the biggest reason why we have legal and moral laws, because if we dont obey them, we will eventually reach a point where our thinking is impaired by our desires. The drunk decided to go out and drink, he decided he wanted one more, he decided he would do the driving, he knew what could happen before and up to a point until he poured himself into a car. Hannah and Robbie knew what they were doing and t that it was wrong and could be destructive up until maybe they were so impaired by their own needs, they just didnt feel it was going to happen. Some states want to hold the bartender responsible for continuing to sell someone drinking, more drinks, when they then go out and kill someone, because they are doing it to make more money and further their own agenda, the business. I think there could be a case made in some instances but its really the person's responsibility, we shouldn't go out and decide, I am going to drink whatever I want and its not up to me to stop, I dont have to worry about it because the bartender has to know when I need to be cut off. This really lets the drinker off the hook and some drinkers you just dont know that one drink will hit them, to blame a bartender isnt right.
 
Most drivers have no intention of hurting anyone but drinking and driving is illegal and potentially lethal. By the way, I agree that bartenders should be held responsible if it can be proven that they have served someone who is already drunk who then has an accident. An intoxicated customer is not capable of making good decisions so a good, responsible server has to know when to tell a drunk person no. That's part of their job and it doesn't let the driver off the hook at all since they are responsible for the driving while drunk. If anything it may let the establishment and the server off the hook and hopefully helps prevent some accidents, although stupid people will always be stupid.

 
... otherwise blame Grace for this accident because she was Hannah's enabler in all this, keeping her secrets, helping her to meet him all in hopes of her own agenda, having Hannah care about her as a sister, rather than loving Hannah enough to do what is right, even at the cost of her own job. Some say its her fault, some say she couldnt stop it because she was being a good servant. But was she being a good person, good friend to let Hannah drown herself, just because she wanted Hannah to like her? I won't lay the blame on her for this tho because she paid for her own folly and lost what she desired.
 
I never considered Grace responsible for any of this. She was a servant doing her job, keeping secrets she was paid to keep. She took her job very seriously and thought very highly of her mistress. It wasn't up to her to comment on any decisions Hannah made unless asked to do so. If she had told her secrets to Teddy and he became furious and then killed Hannah and Robbie people would have said she should have minded her own business and kept her mouth shut. Deborah knew about the affair and she didn't tell Teddy but she wasn't considered responsible for the accident. Her reasons for not telling were for her own selfish needs. She was afraid of the scandal it would create for the family, otherwise she would have happily told and enjoyed the fallout.


Robbie and Hannah doing 'fall into this', they know each step of the way what is happening and weigh others feelings against their own. It was a horrible accident, but as far as cause or guilt, you play, you pay. That may sound harsh or unromantic, and it is, but its real and true.
 
I can agree with the "you play, you pay" unless it includes being shot. There are unpredictable risks and it makes the story more dramatic but the shooting death is not justified because of an affair.


As for the mystery of this book and you not having thought of some of the things without all the people in this club figuring things out...come on wrighty, I know you better than that and your a smart cookie! This book was a given, where you really surprised by anything except the secret of the shorthand being important to Hannah? You say the mystery wasnt given to us outright, it was. A lot of times it was.
 
Why thank you for the compliment! :smileywink: There were mysteries that were revealed before the book ended, there were some that were early enough to figure out or to make a good guess at but we didn't know every single thing. Some parts we just thought we did although we we're probably right. I can't remember now but was it ever revealed for sure to us that Frederick was Grace's father? Those things didn't bother me as much as they did you, maybe because it was a first novel for the author. It also took me a long time to finish it so I was happy to get to the end. I thought the book was too long but I wasn't bored by Grace. I liked her most of the time.
 
There were many, many posts I didn't get to read (yet) and I barely touched the thread with the questions to the author so I didn't see any of the ones you mentioned. I really like being able to have a discussion with the author too. There are so many things I would love to ask when I read a story and I'm so impressed when they answer our questions.


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vivico1
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Re: Hannah

vivico1 wrote: ... otherwise blame Grace for this accident because she was Hannah's enabler in all this, keeping her secrets, helping her to meet him all in hopes of her own agenda, having Hannah care about her as a sister, rather than loving Hannah enough to do what is right, even at the cost of her own job. Some say its her fault, some say she couldnt stop it because she was being a good servant. But was she being a good person, good friend to let Hannah drown herself, just because she wanted Hannah to like her? I won't lay the blame on her for this tho because she paid for her own folly and lost what she desired.

Wrighty wrote: I never considered Grace responsible for any of this. She was a servant doing her job, keeping secrets she was paid to keep. She took her job very seriously and thought very highly of her mistress. It wasn't up to her to comment on any decisions Hannah made unless asked to do so. If she had told her secrets to Teddy and he became furious and then killed Hannah and Robbie people would have said she should have minded her own business and kept her mouth shut. Deborah knew about the affair and she didn't tell Teddy but she wasn't considered responsible for the accident. Her reasons for not telling were for her own selfish needs. She was afraid of the scandal it would create for the family, otherwise she would have happily told and enjoyed the fallout.

Wrighty, some people did blame Grace. But what you say here, I just still can't get past the implications. If she knew for example that Hannah was going to kill, let say Teddie, is it still not her place to say anything because this is her job? I never suggested she tell Teddie or anyone else, but before I say what I do think she should have done, how far does someone have to go before the employee's morals, sense of right and wrong have to kick in, no matter the personal cost, i.e. job, friends? Interesting that this particular point gets brought up in The Jewel Trader about choices. What I had suggested all along was that Grace owed it to the person she supposedly loved as a sister, Hannah, to talk to her! She didnt have to tell Teddie or anyone else. And I won't let her off because it was her job to be quiet! Some things have to over-ride that, they have to. I mean this is like watching a cop pass a car crash with people hurt and just saying, not my beat. I am just saying, she should have told Hannah, this is wrong, you can't do this, think about what you are doing to Teddie and Emmeline, to your family and what will people think about Robbie, the man you say you love? If you go out again, I will say something to someone, if its just to say out loud WHERE are you going Ma'am? to bring attention to your leaving. I wont take any more messages for you, I wont be your lookout. You have to think. She should do this even if she fears Hannah would fire her. At least she would not have been an accomplice and then whatever happened would not be on her conscience. She didn't because she wanted Hannah to like her at all cost, just like Hannah wanted this at all cost. They both paid in the end.
________________________________________________________________________________________

p.s. wouldn't it be fun to sit by a fire, our little group and have these little book debates in person? I would still bring the hot cocoa. :smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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Re: Hannah



vivico1 wrote:
Wrighty, some people did blame Grace. But what you say here, I just still can't get past the implications. If she knew for example that Hannah was going to kill, let say Teddie, is it still not her place to say anything because this is her job? I never suggested she tell Teddie or anyone else, but before I say what I do think she should have done, how far does someone have to go before the employee's morals, sense of right and wrong have to kick in, no matter the personal cost, i.e. job, friends? Interesting that this particular point gets brought up in The Jewel Trader about choices. What I had suggested all along was that Grace owed it to the person she supposedly loved as a sister, Hannah, to talk to her! She didnt have to tell Teddie or anyone else. And I won't let her off because it was her job to be quiet! Some things have to over-ride that, they have to. I mean this is like watching a cop pass a car crash with people hurt and just saying, not my beat. I am just saying, she should have told Hannah, this is wrong, you can't do this, think about what you are doing to Teddie and Emmeline, to your family and what will people think about Robbie, the man you say you love? If you go out again, I will say something to someone, if its just to say out loud WHERE are you going Ma'am? to bring attention to your leaving. I wont take any more messages for you, I wont be your lookout. You have to think. She should do this even if she fears Hannah would fire her. At least she would not have been an accomplice and then whatever happened would not be on her conscience. She didn't because she wanted Hannah to like her at all cost, just like Hannah wanted this at all cost. They both paid in the end.
________________________________________________________________________________________

p.s. wouldn't it be fun to sit by a fire, our little group and have these little book debates in person? I would still bring the hot cocoa. :smileywink:

I've got the fireplace you bring the cocoa! I'll even make cookies! I made banana bread and cupcakes this weekend. Yum, but my teens scarfed them down. Better them than me though and I still got some of them.
 
I'm referring to Grace in her own situation in this story. Just like any job, it should be made clear to her what this job entails and what her responsibilities are and hopefully common sense would be used beyond that. I absolutely think a potential murder should be reported. What I'm saying is that it's not Grace's place to tell Hannah how to run her life. She may not agree with any of the choices Hannah makes but they aren't her decisions to make. She may love her like a sister but she isn't filling that role. She is her servant. If they are having a discussion and Hannah wants her opinion, that's different but she is not obligated to prevent Hannah from having an affair. It's not up to her to announce that she is sneaking off either. No other servants did that for any of the other characters who were having affairs or making poor choices.
 
It is a tricky situation for someone who has a close relationship though. Even a friend may have a hard time knowing what to do here, when to get involved and when to mind your own business. It's not easy no matter who you are. If Grace wants to remove herself from covering up for them than she should be able to say no to that. Hopefully she wouldn't lose her job but it's a risk she would take. When it comes to breaking the law then Grace would have more responsibility trying to decide what to do. I would think that would be hard for someone who is so loyal if it's a lesser infraction but I would hope that something would be done. I don't see it the same as a cop driving past an accident at all. That's very different than the affair of your employer. When it comes to physically harming or killing another person intentionally than anyone that knows about it is an accomplice to the crime. If they don't report it they are to be considered involved in that crime. That's not what happened in this story.
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Re: Hannah


Wrighty wrote:

vivico1 wrote: Wrighty, some people did blame Grace. But what you say here, I just still can't get past the implications. If she knew for example that Hannah was going to kill, let say Teddie, is it still not her place to say anything because this is her job? I never suggested she tell Teddie or anyone else, but before I say what I do think she should have done, how far does someone have to go before the employee's morals, sense of right and wrong have to kick in, no matter the personal cost, i.e. job, friends? Interesting that this particular point gets brought up in The Jewel Trader about choices. What I had suggested all along was that Grace owed it to the person she supposedly loved as a sister, Hannah, to talk to her! She didnt have to tell Teddie or anyone else. And I won't let her off because it was her job to be quiet! Some things have to over-ride that, they have to. I mean this is like watching a cop pass a car crash with people hurt and just saying, not my beat. I am just saying, she should have told Hannah, this is wrong, you can't do this, think about what you are doing to Teddie and Emmeline, to your family and what will people think about Robbie, the man you say you love? If you go out again, I will say something to someone, if its just to say out loud WHERE are you going Ma'am? to bring attention to your leaving. I wont take any more messages for you, I wont be your lookout. You have to think. She should do this even if she fears Hannah would fire her. At least she would not have been an accomplice and then whatever happened would not be on her conscience. She didn't because she wanted Hannah to like her at all cost, just like Hannah wanted this at all cost. They both paid in the end. ________________________________________________________________________________________ p.s. wouldn't it be fun to sit by a fire, our little group and have these little book debates in person? I would still bring the hot cocoa. :smileywink:
I've got the fireplace you bring the cocoa! I'll even make cookies! I made banana bread and cupcakes this weekend. Yum, but my teens scarfed them down. Better them than me though and I still got some of them.
I'm referring to Grace in her own situation in this story. Just like any job, it should be made clear to her what this job entails and what her responsibilities are and hopefully common sense would be used beyond that. I absolutely think a potential murder should be reported. What I'm saying is that it's not Grace's place to tell Hannah how to run her life. She may not agree with any of the choices Hannah makes but they aren't her decisions to make. She may love her like a sister but she isn't filling that role. She is her servant. If they are having a discussion and Hannah wants her opinion, that's different but she is not obligated to prevent Hannah from having an affair. It's not up to her to announce that she is sneaking off either. No other servants did that for any of the other characters who were having affairs or making poor choices.
It is a tricky situation for someone who has a close relationship though. Even a friend may have a hard time knowing what to do here, when to get involved and when to mind your own business. It's not easy no matter who you are. If Grace wants to remove herself from covering up for them than she should be able to say no to that. Hopefully she wouldn't lose her job but it's a risk she would take. When it comes to breaking the law then Grace would have more responsibility trying to decide what to do. I would think that would be hard for someone who is so loyal if it's a lesser infraction but I would hope that something would be done. I don't see it the same as a cop driving past an accident at all. That's very different than the affair of your employer. When it comes to physically harming or killing another person intentionally than anyone that knows about it is an accomplice to the crime. If they don't report it they are to be considered involved in that crime. That's not what happened in this story.

Still Wrighty, she may have been "just a servant", but she saw herself as more and if she loved Hannah then sometimes you have to step outside your assigned role and say something, if its to help them and not stay silent to further your personal connection to them. She wasnt helping her do this out of the loyalty of a servant. She was helping her out of the desire to have her like her on a personal level. I think one of the older women servants would have been more loyal as a servant and say ma'am, I can not help you do this thing, at least. Oh well, anyway, hey I love fireplaces, I miss not having one like I always used to in apartments. And if you got banana bread oh boy! do you put pecans in it too? those nice sweet pecans, not walnuts? lol Man I am gonna come hang out at your house then and we can argue the fine points over cocoa or even milk and banana bread or cookies while we warm our feet by the fire. Sounds good to me! :smileywink:
Vivian
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Wrighty
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Re: Hannah



vivico1 wrote:
Still Wrighty, she may have been "just a servant", but she saw herself as more and if she loved Hannah then sometimes you have to step outside your assigned role and say something, if its to help them and not stay silent to further your personal connection to them. She wasnt helping her do this out of the loyalty of a servant. She was helping her out of the desire to have her like her on a personal level. I think one of the older women servants would have been more loyal as a servant and say ma'am, I can not help you do this thing, at least. Oh well, anyway, hey I love fireplaces, I miss not having one like I always used to in apartments. And if you got banana bread oh boy! do you put pecans in it too? those nice sweet pecans, not walnuts? lol Man I am gonna come hang out at your house then and we can argue the fine points over cocoa or even milk and banana bread or cookies while we warm our feet by the fire. Sounds good to me! :smileywink:

 
Sorry, no pecans. The kids like it plain with lots of butter. I barely get it out of the oven before they start eating. We have a large family room with a huge fireplace that my parents built with river rock from the creek we have. We love it. You can come visit and we'll have my personal servant give her opinion of Grace's responsiblities. (Ha! Personal servant. I crack myself up.) :smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy:

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