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KathyS
Posts: 6,898
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

Thank you.
Popper,
As I looked back on each of these characters, from the major players, to the most insignificant ones, there was this constant thread of viewing love. I'll admit I'm a romantic, half the time - and looking for it, but I'm not necessarily referring to the romantic love, here.

The reality of this [love]thread was written into this novel. Showing so many ways to either love someone, or something, and then viewing the repercussions. I won't go through and list all of these views I saw, but I found it interesting to watch these characters spin around and interlock with each other. Think back on them, and see what each of her characters had wanted, and what they had/hadn't been able to give back, or receive. I bet you'll see this. Grace picked up the threads, and weaved them together for us, after her mother was no longer able to sew.....
K.
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KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



Kimmi373 wrote:
The predominate type of love explored in this book seems to be love of the obsessive kind, Hannah and Robbie and Grace and Hannah. The only thing that bothers me is that the obsessive, often unhealthy, love prevails in the end. Hannah apparently appears to lead Grace on; I guess I would have liked Albert to be the one, real love prevailing.

I too am glad that Grace ended up with Albert, but I am glad the author made it a late in life reunion. The Grace Albert proposed to could not love him, she was to obsessed with Hannah. Grace needed to distance herself from that person before she could become the person Albert deserved.



Great observation, Kimmi! I would go so far as to say that Grace could not love Alfred yet because she did not even know herself, so overinvolved was she in the lives of the Hartfords.

Although I'm not sure I agree that obsessive love prevails in the case of Hannah/Robbie or Grace/Hannah. Jury's still out on exactly how those relationships pan out but it's not looking good! :smileyhappy:
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kmliska
Posts: 24
Registered: ‎12-25-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

[ Edited ]
I was glad that Marcus returned. I kinda figured he would otherwise why mention him at all in the book. I'm not sure if the tapes helped him or if he just spent enough time away. I was also glad when I learned that Grace and Alfred finally ended up together. A lot of what happened in the end didn't seem to really matter. I was happy to see how things ended up but it didn't really seem to effect the story.
I don't think this story is a romance. I believe it is a mystery. I think the romance parts were just put in to make the story seem a little happier.

Message Edited by kmliska on 01-24-2008 09:19 AM
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KxBurns
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



kmliska wrote:
I was glad that Marcus returned. I kinda figured he would otherwise why mention him at all in the book. I'm not sure if the tapes helped him or if he just spent enough time away. I was also glad when I learned that Grace and Alfred finally ended up together. A lot of what happened in the end didn't seem to really matter. I was happy to see how things ended up but it didn't really seem to effect the story.
I don't think this story is a romance. I believe it is a mystery. I think the romance parts were just put in to make the story seem a little happier.

Message Edited by kmliska on 01-24-2008 09:19 AM



Yet the majority of the romances here are so tortured that they make it sad! But I know what you mean - the Alfred and Grace resolution is a sweet sidenote to the larger mystery.
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SandyS
Posts: 148
Registered: ‎12-28-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

It bothers me that Marcus calls Grace "Grace" not Grandmother or some other typical form of endearment. It seems true generations repeat themselves. This family is not close.

SandyS
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kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



SandyS wrote:
It bothers me that Marcus calls Grace "Grace" not Grandmother or some other typical form of endearment. It seems true generations repeat themselves. This family is not close.

SandyS




Couldn't it be just respect that he does this? Remember this is in england where
proper namecalling is previd. Because they called nannies their hired babysitters.
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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End


kiakar wrote:


SandyS wrote:
It bothers me that Marcus calls Grace "Grace" not Grandmother or some other typical form of endearment. It seems true generations repeat themselves. This family is not close.

SandyS




Couldn't it be just respect that he does this? Remember this is in england where
proper namecalling is previd. Because they called nannies their hired babysitters.


I think Marcus probably did grow up disconnected from his grandmother, especially if he and his mother are. He may have gotten close to her at an age "Grace" was easier to call her and shes fine with that. Kind of their own kind of closeness. Calling someone grandmother or mother doesnt always mean a family is close. The last year my mother and I spoke, when she called, rather than saying, hi its me, or hi its mom, she would say very sternly, Vivian, this is your mother. Like I wouldnt know who it was lol, but it was her way of saying to me "in case you have forgotten!" In better days, she would get tickled when I called her by her first name, if i did it with an accent. I think its just what Marcus and Grace probably decided was comfortable together :smileywink:.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

[ Edited ]

>
One question I do have -- what is "the secret"? Is there "a secret" really? Deception about shorthand seems an easy response. But what about the silence about what really happened by the lakeside? Wasn't that the nightmare that opened the novel?

crazyasitsounds wrote:
I was very surprised to find out that Grace & Alfred ended up together. At first I felt a little cheated that we didn't learn more details about their relationship, but after I thought about it a little I was struck by the fact that Grace starts out as a a servant & ends up as someone her grandson can describe as "not a conventional woman". It really speaks to the changes & the modernization that run throughout the novel.

I don't think Grace needs forgiveness from any person, but rather from history, from her own guilt that nobody else knows about, from what she considers the truth.

My question is: Did she never tell Alfred about any of this?




Sorry, will state this in "The Tape"
MG

Message Edited by fordmg on 01-29-2008 04:08 PM
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CanTri
Posts: 51
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



paula_02912 wrote:
Everyman wrote: "With 500 pages, you would think that Morton could have paid a bit more attention to Marcus's return. We don't really know how or why or what it all means to him. Other loose ends are pretty well tied up, but not this one, at least as far as I can see. Nor does he explain at all why the tapes would help him put behind him the grief of a dead wife. What's the relationship?"

Everyman, IMO the story isn't about Marcus, therefore he didn't figure prominently in the story...yes, he was a "vehicle" for why Grace wanted to unburden herself, but that is just it...of Morton was to dedicate more than the pages she did to give us a backstory on Marcus' grief, but the same token, she would have needed to do the same thing for Ruth and Ursula...In retrospect, I think the purpose of writing about Marcus was maybe to show some parallel between his absence and that of Frederick when he left Riverton after his wife's death...he needed time to think and focus on the hows and whys of it as well as deal with any guilt he may have felt...just like Marcus had to do when his wife died...he needed to come to terms with what happened, and possibly realize that he could have done nothing to save her...I think the tapes would help him because it represented a greater tragedy brought about by lies and deception...someone caused the death of someone else because of love...whereas his situation wasn't as dramatic and it probably made him realize that he played no part in the death of his wife...does this make sense?




I think a little piece of the Marcus story is to show that SOMEONE in the Hartford family can overcome grief without wallowing in their sorrow to the point of death (whether from self-inflicted injury (Frederick), recklessness (Emmeline) or giving up/depression (Hannah).
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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End


CanTri wrote:


paula_02912 wrote:
Everyman wrote: "With 500 pages, you would think that Morton could have paid a bit more attention to Marcus's return. We don't really know how or why or what it all means to him. Other loose ends are pretty well tied up, but not this one, at least as far as I can see. Nor does he explain at all why the tapes would help him put behind him the grief of a dead wife. What's the relationship?"

Everyman, IMO the story isn't about Marcus, therefore he didn't figure prominently in the story...yes, he was a "vehicle" for why Grace wanted to unburden herself, but that is just it...of Morton was to dedicate more than the pages she did to give us a backstory on Marcus' grief, but the same token, she would have needed to do the same thing for Ruth and Ursula...In retrospect, I think the purpose of writing about Marcus was maybe to show some parallel between his absence and that of Frederick when he left Riverton after his wife's death...he needed time to think and focus on the hows and whys of it as well as deal with any guilt he may have felt...just like Marcus had to do when his wife died...he needed to come to terms with what happened, and possibly realize that he could have done nothing to save her...I think the tapes would help him because it represented a greater tragedy brought about by lies and deception...someone caused the death of someone else because of love...whereas his situation wasn't as dramatic and it probably made him realize that he played no part in the death of his wife...does this make sense?




I think a little piece of the Marcus story is to show that SOMEONE in the Hartford family can overcome grief without wallowing in their sorrow to the point of death (whether from self-inflicted injury (Frederick), recklessness (Emmeline) or giving up/depression (Hannah).


ahh yes, but did he overcome it, or has he been running from it? The way Ruth and Grace talk about him, he is lost too, maybe not to death, but maybe death of his spirit.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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paula_02912
Posts: 492
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

Vivian wrote: "ahh yes, but did he overcome it, or has he been running from it? The way Ruth and Grace talk about him, he is lost too, maybe not to death, but maybe death of his spirit."

Good point Vivian, but that we will never know...it would be another story...
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

Author Unknown
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CanTri
Posts: 51
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



You're right they did get married. It was such a short reference I forgot and forgot if she died or they divorced? I still would have preferred to have seen their marriage last till the day they both died. Guess its the desire to see at least one couple in this book, start off in a good way and stay happy, just once! lol




Yes, but how happy could they really have been? Lucy was never Alfred's first choice. It's who he settled for.
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m3girl
Posts: 194
Registered: ‎03-02-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

Notes from the chapter:

1. Ursula is Hannah's daugher Florence's grand daughter - I had no idea of the connection! I guess that explains more on her interest in Riverton - having a more personal level.

2. So happy to learn that Alfred and Grace hook up later on in life. I think he was her one true love and so that is a good thing.

3. And the author continues to tease us in the last line of the Slipping Out chapter....effective as I stayed up later and kept reading!
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Novanglus
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Registered: ‎09-22-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

I was happy to see Alfred and Grace end up together. Mostly because Alfred goes through so much, and at least he gets to be with the one he always loved, and dies in his sleep peacefully without any guilt for the life he lived.

I wonder whatever happened to Nancy? We see what happened to the rest of the staff, dying shortly after Hannah's death, in Katie case marrying earlier in the book, but I was surprised to see Nancy unmentioned/
Let us tenderly and kindly cherish therefore, the means of knowledge. Let us dare to read, think, speak, and write. -John Adams
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HannibalCat
Posts: 238
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



Everyman wrote:


KxBurns wrote:
I think these chapters can be discussed together.

Marcus returns and indicates that he might eventually be able to put his grief behind him. Does this mean Grace accomplished what she out to with her tapes?

With 500 pages, you would think that Morton could have paid a bit more attention to Marcus's return. We don't really know how or why or what it all means to him. Other loose ends are pretty well tied up, but not this one, at least as far as I can see. Nor does he explain at all why the tapes would help him put behind him the grief of a dead wife. What's the relationship?




Good question. Sometimes when I was reading these last chapters I thought I understood it completely. Then I thought "what??" My guess is that time was healing his wounds and then the tapes helped him realize that we cannot control everything, even when we are missing some of the clues of life. Grace should have seen some of this stuff coming, but she was so engrossed in her own life she missed a lot. Perhaps Marcus missed a lot, too.
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HannibalCat
Posts: 238
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End




Great observation, Kimmi! I would go so far as to say that Grace could not love Alfred yet because she did not even know herself, so overinvolved was she in the lives of the Hartfords.

Although I'm not sure I agree that obsessive love prevails in the case of Hannah/Robbie or Grace/Hannah. Jury's still out on exactly how those relationships pan out but it's not looking good! :smileyhappy:




I completely agree with that statement. Grace had no idea what love was all about and really had a lot of growing up to do before she could. She thought she had to be with Hannah in order to fulfill her destiny. A self-confident adult would know that was not true in this situation. Grace was too young and too immature to make that distinction.

When Alfred showed up years later, she was ready to accept love. Personally, I'm glad she finally figured it out.
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