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bentley
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?



BookWoman718 wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't indicating my own thoughts on the inevitability of people's lives, only speculating if that could have been the author's take on it, and/or the reason she wrote it as she did. That's why I think I would have enjoyed seeing a prominent character or two who stepped outside of what was expected by family and station in life, and who lived to enjoy success doing it. My own feeling is that strong people can often do that, and that opportunities for acting on one's own wishes probably abounded after the so-called Great War, when the world was changing so rapidly. But such a character might have lessened the feeling of inevitability about the whole plot.

Or maybe I should also differentiate between 'the author's' voice and 'Grace's' voice, since most of this is told in the first person. Maybe it's Grace's viewpoint that's the key; all these characters, upstairs or down, and the bad ends they come to when they don't meet expectations (or know their place) Her guilt in the end may not be just over the seemingly little white lie of letting Hannah believe they have something in common, but in the way she was in thrall to them all, didn't objectively look after her own best interests, went along with things she believed were wrong, and didn't question that whole idea of knowing her place while at the same time reveling in the idea of her specialness to her employer.




Thank you for your explanation,,,I feel similarly about Grace. It might have been better if she had not been the narrator; the more I think about it..Grace was very much the Hartford.
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?


kiakar wrote:
Was this a love story? Of course it was, but alot more. . I will always recommend this book to everyone. My daughter is readin git now, and the other two are getting copies when it comes out. An awesome read!


Kiakar, my pal,my buddy, we have finally read a book together that we really have different opinions on at the end. lol. Altho I liked the story, it dragged, it held no mystery to me, she kept telling us everything before it even happened, author spoilers LOL and just not a "cant put it down book to me". I find just the opposite, I wont be recommending this book to anyone. :smileywink: but as always, fun to be in the same club with ya. Hey Kiakar? When you recommend it, who will you say the author is??? hehehe LOL, ok, inside joke this late in the game so dont worry about explaning, but GOTCHA! :smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?


Everyman wrote:

kiakar wrote:
It was a novel of life, should I say normal life.

I sure hope not! Iif this is normal life, I hope to live a wildly abnormal life!


LOLLOL, you two are killing me here. The scary thing is, this probably is my families normal life ROFL, lies, deceipt, self love rather than love of others and on and on and yesss thats a scary thought! LOL
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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kiakar
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?



vivico1 wrote:

kiakar wrote:
Was this a love story? Of course it was, but alot more. . I will always recommend this book to everyone. My daughter is readin git now, and the other two are getting copies when it comes out. An awesome read!


Kiakar, my pal,my buddy, we have finally read a book together that we really have different opinions on at the end. lol. Altho I liked the story, it dragged, it held no mystery to me, she kept telling us everything before it even happened, author spoilers LOL and just not a "cant put it down book to me". I find just the opposite, I wont be recommending this book to anyone. :smileywink: but as always, fun to be in the same club with ya. Hey Kiakar? When you recommend it, who will you say the author is??? hehehe LOL, ok, inside joke this late in the game so dont worry about explaning, but GOTCHA! :smileywink:




Ok. now, Viv, give me a break. I might get you someday.!
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kiakar
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?



vivico1 wrote:

Everyman wrote:

kiakar wrote:
It was a novel of life, should I say normal life.

I sure hope not! Iif this is normal life, I hope to live a wildly abnormal life!


LOLLOL, you two are killing me here. The scary thing is, this probably is my families normal life ROFL, lies, deceipt, self love rather than love of others and on and on and yesss thats a scary thought! LOL




I didnt mean everyone lives this life, but its common, affairs,marrying for money,murder,lies,deceit. This is the life of today anyway. Whether you consider it normal or not. And some of this awful stuff has been in my life and some of it I am sure has been in most people's life if they live past 85.
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Peppermill
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

My question is: Did she never tell Alfred about any of this?

Crazyasitsounds -- Great question! I hadn't gone there in my own musing.

One question I do have -- what is "the secret"? Is there "a secret" really? Deception about shorthand seems an easy response. But what about the silence about what really happened by the lakeside? Wasn't that the nightmare that opened the novel?

crazyasitsounds wrote:
I was very surprised to find out that Grace & Alfred ended up together. At first I felt a little cheated that we didn't learn more details about their relationship, but after I thought about it a little I was struck by the fact that Grace starts out as a a servant & ends up as someone her grandson can describe as "not a conventional woman". It really speaks to the changes & the modernization that run throughout the novel.

I don't think Grace needs forgiveness from any person, but rather from history, from her own guilt that nobody else knows about, from what she considers the truth.

My question is: Did she never tell Alfred about any of this?
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?


kiakar wrote:


vivico1 wrote:

kiakar wrote:
Was this a love story? Of course it was, but alot more. . I will always recommend this book to everyone. My daughter is readin git now, and the other two are getting copies when it comes out. An awesome read!


Kiakar, my pal,my buddy, we have finally read a book together that we really have different opinions on at the end. lol. Altho I liked the story, it dragged, it held no mystery to me, she kept telling us everything before it even happened, author spoilers LOL and just not a "cant put it down book to me". I find just the opposite, I wont be recommending this book to anyone. :smileywink: but as always, fun to be in the same club with ya. Hey Kiakar? When you recommend it, who will you say the author is??? hehehe LOL, ok, inside joke this late in the game so dont worry about explaning, but GOTCHA! :smileywink:




Ok. now, Viv, give me a break. I might get you someday.!


OH no doubt no doubt lol. But ya got to admit, that was a good one hehehe. :smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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kiakar
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?



vivico1 wrote:

kiakar wrote:


vivico1 wrote:

kiakar wrote:
Was this a love story? Of course it was, but alot more. . I will always recommend this book to everyone. My daughter is readin git now, and the other two are getting copies when it comes out. An awesome read!


Kiakar, my pal,my buddy, we have finally read a book together that we really have different opinions on at the end. lol. Altho I liked the story, it dragged, it held no mystery to me, she kept telling us everything before it even happened, author spoilers LOL and just not a "cant put it down book to me". I find just the opposite, I wont be recommending this book to anyone. :smileywink: but as always, fun to be in the same club with ya. Hey Kiakar? When you recommend it, who will you say the author is??? hehehe LOL, ok, inside joke this late in the game so dont worry about explaning, but GOTCHA! :smileywink:




Ok. now, Viv, give me a break. I might get you someday.!


OH no doubt no doubt lol. But ya got to admit, that was a good one hehehe. :smileywink:




When I get you, girl, I will make sure it is a good one too. Maybe two good ones.
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?


kiakar wrote:


vivico1 wrote:

Everyman wrote:

kiakar wrote:
It was a novel of life, should I say normal life.

I sure hope not! Iif this is normal life, I hope to live a wildly abnormal life!


LOLLOL, you two are killing me here. The scary thing is, this probably is my families normal life ROFL, lies, deceipt, self love rather than love of others and on and on and yesss thats a scary thought! LOL




I didnt mean everyone lives this life, but its common, affairs,marrying for money,murder,lies,deceit.


Hey Kiakar, sounds like American TV of normal life to me!
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Peppermill
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

[ Edited ]
I noticed the spark also, but how exactly related are Marcus and Ursula?

If we are correct about Frederick being the father of Grace, he would be the grandfather of Marcus. Since he is "definitely" the father of Hannah, he would be the great grandfather of Ursula. (Is that correct? What is that likely to imply about the ages of Marcus and Ursula?)

(One of the issues of modern in vitro fertilization can be exactly knowledge of these kinds of genetic links. Did Kate Morton intend the allusions about the importance of "knowing family"? I have sensed throughout a tremendous effort to relate 20th century issues to 21st century ones. Am I "over-reading"?)

dhaupt wrote:
I do think that Grace's tapes have helped Marcus cope and maybe he's coming back from the brink.

I was so happy that we find out that Grace and Alfred reunite in this chapter and I wonder if this is also a bone of contention between Ruth and Grace the fact that Grace didn't love Ruth's father like she did Alfred.

I noticed the spark also, but how exactly related are Marcus and Ursula?

In The End I wonder who Grace saw, ghosts perhaps or maybe just an angel. I think Grace needs forgiveness from herself, she did the best she knew how.

I think releasing her secret was a selfless act for Marcus because I still don't think she thought the world needed to know what really happened. I think if Marcus hadn't been suffering she would have taken the secret to the grave.



Message Edited by Peppermill on 01-15-2008 12:08 AM
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?


kiakar wrote:


vivico1 wrote:

kiakar wrote:





Ok. now, Viv, give me a break. I might get you someday.!


OH no doubt no doubt lol. But ya got to admit, that was a good one hehehe. :smileywink:




When I get you, girl, I will make sure it is a good one too. Maybe two good ones.


oh like you could save them up lol, you know u will call me on the first one lol.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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bookhunter
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

I don't really think of this as a romance. Hannah and Robby were not "together" enough for me to really feel the love there. I think Robby was a connection to David and an escape from her life for Hannah. She had a suitcase packed, so I guess she was really planning to run off, but I wonder how long it would have lasted in the "real world?" their relationship was based on lots of secrets, and the secape from reality. When they plop themselves down ito their onw relationship reality, would it last?

This is a tragedy, but it is a tragedy based on the effects of war and the choices made by the characters. You cannot base it JUST on the effects of war, because people always have the free will to make choices to take them beyond some effects. For example, Grace makes the choice to move on from the events, get an education, improve her "station" in life, and lives a long life.

Ann, bookhunter
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bookhunter
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

I jumped over to the thread of Parallels to this Book to chime in, but that thread is falling down as other discussions pick up!

One book I keep thinking of through our discussion is _The English Patient_ . It is one of my all-time favorites. But even in IT, the main love story is not a "love story" to me. The tragedy comes because two adults have chosen to pursue an adulterous affair. (Don't much care for adulterous love stories, myself.)

But in that book, the main story is contrasted with the story of Hannah and Kip who fall in love during WW II. Their love affair goes on to bring both characters happiness years later.

I guess it all depends on your definition of "romance novel!" My preference is a story about two people who ought to be together but seemingly unsurmountable obstacles prevent it. Either they get together in the end and they live happily ever after, or they don't and it is a tragedy. (Yep. I'm an Austen fan.)

I don't think Hannah and Robby were MEANT for each other--do you?

Ann, bookhunter
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End


bookhunter wrote:
I don't really think of this as a romance. Hannah and Robby were not "together" enough for me to really feel the love there. I think Robby was a connection to David and an escape from her life for Hannah. She had a suitcase packed, so I guess she was really planning to run off, but I wonder how long it would have lasted in the "real world?" their relationship was based on lots of secrets, and the secape from reality. When they plop themselves down ito their onw relationship reality, would it last?

This is a tragedy, but it is a tragedy based on the effects of war and the choices made by the characters. You cannot base it JUST on the effects of war, because people always have the free will to make choices to take them beyond some effects. For example, Grace makes the choice to move on from the events, get an education, improve her "station" in life, and lives a long life.

Ann, bookhunter


I agree with you completely Ann, and I think had they made it away, they would not have made it together, she could have been hurt, he could have one day just got up and walked out without a word and not come back, like he often did with them before the affair and I dont know of any affairs that end, happily ever after. Affairs tend to be exciting, and different and seem like its the best love of all, but thats because of the nature of this shared secret that the only times you are really together is passionate and your own fairytale where you can leave the responsibilities of real life behind, which in yours, somewhere is something you are trying to escape, to get involved in one anyway.

No offense to any grandma's here for the comparison ok, but its like of like the luxury of being the grandparent over the parent. You can get together and not worry about the everyday stuff, just have fun enjoy the kids, love them silly and when you are tired, take them home lol. You are removed somewhat from the responsibilities of the parents which allows you to be anything you want to the grandkids, their heroes and playmates and the fun one. Same with affairs... magical place, full of passion but not a place that last often in the real world. Hannah had already seen some of this the longer they were together, as she mentioned somewhere, his little habit of jumping up and writing while they were in the middle of cuddling or talking, she said she might not have liked very much at all in other circumstances, but here where she could just lay and oohh and ahh and be content to watch him, it was nice.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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bookhunter
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End


vivico1 wrote:
No offense to any grandma's here for the comparison ok, but its like of like the luxury of being the grandparent over the parent. You can get together and not worry about the everyday stuff, just have fun enjoy the kids, love them silly and when you are tired, take them home lol. You are removed somewhat from the responsibilities of the parents which allows you to be anything you want to the grandkids, their heroes and playmates and the fun one. Same with affairs... magical place, full of passion but not a place that last often in the real world. Hannah had already seen some of this the longer they were together, as she mentioned somewhere, his little habit of jumping up and writing while they were in the middle of cuddling or talking, she said she might not have liked very much at all in other circumstances, but here where she could just lay and oohh and ahh and be content to watch him, it was nice.




LOL! I never thought about comparing grandparenting to an illicit affair! Reread Grace's thoughts about grandparenting on page 184 and replace with "spouse," "lover" etc. and it says the same thing!

I am giggling, but you make a good point. Both are relationships that do not carry the responsibilities of reality.

Ann, bookhunter
(neither grandparent nor illicit lover, so totally clueless!)
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End


bookhunter wrote:

vivico1 wrote:
No offense to any grandma's here for the comparison ok, but its like of like the luxury of being the grandparent over the parent. You can get together and not worry about the everyday stuff, just have fun enjoy the kids, love them silly and when you are tired, take them home lol. You are removed somewhat from the responsibilities of the parents which allows you to be anything you want to the grandkids, their heroes and playmates and the fun one. Same with affairs... magical place, full of passion but not a place that last often in the real world. Hannah had already seen some of this the longer they were together, as she mentioned somewhere, his little habit of jumping up and writing while they were in the middle of cuddling or talking, she said she might not have liked very much at all in other circumstances, but here where she could just lay and oohh and ahh and be content to watch him, it was nice.




LOL! I never thought about comparing grandparenting to an illicit affair! Reread Grace's thoughts about grandparenting on page 184 and replace with "spouse," "lover" etc. and it says the same thing!

I am giggling, but you make a good point. Both are relationships that do not carry the responsibilities of reality.

Ann, bookhunter
(neither grandparent nor illicit lover, so totally clueless!)


lol :smileywink:,now I got to get my book and reread it doing that and see but well, it was the best way I could figure to kind of explain it lol.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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BookWoman718
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

Sorry, my friends, but in the real world sometimes affairs DO end with as much 'happily ever after' as anyone else's. I know of several. (The comparison to grandparenting does hold, though, actually, because as we've seen all too often, grandparents can and do step up to the plate of full responsibility for children, particularly when their own children are unwilling or unable to do so.) The people who have affairs are not really so different from anyone else; they are a cross-section of society, of religions, of ages, of backgrounds. So when faced with the very real challenges of marriage and commitment, some will make it, others won't. Two very dear friends, in my own extended-extended family, met while married to others more than forty years ago, divorced, remarried, had more children in addition to the several they already had between them, worked, raised the kids with the help of ex-spouses, and are now still together, in retirement, happy, devoted to one another and to the children and grandchildren. They simply were with the 'wrong' people before. I'm not saying that affairs are not often selfish and thrill-seeking, they are. But relationships can stagnate and die, or they can thrive and grow deeper. No matter how they begin. Being old enough to remember, I might remind you that the sixties and seventies were a time of great sexual 'freedom' and exploration in America, which included experimentation with 'open marriage'. Believe it or not, a lot of those grandparents you know now, were right in the thick of it.
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kiakar
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



bookhunter wrote:
I jumped over to the thread of Parallels to this Book to chime in, but that thread is falling down as other discussions pick up!

One book I keep thinking of through our discussion is _The English Patient_ . It is one of my all-time favorites. But even in IT, the main love story is not a "love story" to me. The tragedy comes because two adults have chosen to pursue an adulterous affair. (Don't much care for adulterous love stories, myself.)

But in that book, the main story is contrasted with the story of Hannah and Kip who fall in love during WW II. Their love affair goes on to bring both characters happiness years later.

I guess it all depends on your definition of "romance novel!" My preference is a story about two people who ought to be together but seemingly unsurmountable obstacles prevent it. Either they get together in the end and they live happily ever after, or they don't and it is a tragedy. (Yep. I'm an Austen fan.)

I don't think Hannah and Robby were MEANT for each other--do you?

Ann, bookhunter




Yes, I agree bookhunter,it wasnt meant for Hannah and Robbie to be together. And Kate wrote it that way. Like you said, there are different ways of writing an adultry story, but this story was written so we see that Hannah is just playing. She is playing a game,playing with herself, and Robbie. And she uses Grace and Emmeline to entice her dull existance. I can't see much good in Hannah. She always had to be lead, even in the nursery, and always life was about what she wanted, she really didnt care who she hurt.
Robbie on the other hand, knew Hannah was married yes, but he had always had an fatuation for Hannah and was still wild enought to go for what he wanted without thinking of the consequences or not caring in the moment. He along with Hannah, didnt care how they were hurting Emmeline. Like if Teddie was having the affair, everyone would understand or symthize anyway because Hannah did not fulfill her marriage obligations. I know she felt slighted because Teddie wasn't the romantic image she thought he was. But who is. She wanted what she wanted and when she didnt get it she went for other things. She was definitely reaching for something to make her happy. If door #l didnt do it, then she would move on to Door# 2 and 3. And she wasn't afraid of shutting that door in others faces. So you wouldnt have Hannah and Robbie at a later date getting back together because feelings were still there. There was no feelings there on Hannah's part at the beginning . So the only way to end it was the death departure. That is the way I see this. And Hannah completely destroyed the purpose in living, by always destroying the people she thought she loved or wanted in her life. Hannah, destroyed her own life. By being selfish and not caring for others, she destroyed her self in the end.
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kiakar
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



BookWoman718 wrote:
Sorry, my friends, but in the real world sometimes affairs DO end with as much 'happily ever after' as anyone else's. I know of several. (The comparison to grandparenting does hold, though, actually, because as we've seen all too often, grandparents can and do step up to the plate of full responsibility for children, particularly when their own children are unwilling or unable to do so.) The people who have affairs are not really so different from anyone else; they are a cross-section of society, of religions, of ages, of backgrounds. So when faced with the very real challenges of marriage and commitment, some will make it, others won't. Two very dear friends, in my own extended-extended family, met while married to others more than forty years ago, divorced, remarried, had more children in addition to the several they already had between them, worked, raised the kids with the help of ex-spouses, and are now still together, in retirement, happy, devoted to one another and to the children and grandchildren. They simply were with the 'wrong' people before. I'm not saying that affairs are not often selfish and thrill-seeking, they are. But relationships can stagnate and die, or they can thrive and grow deeper. No matter how they begin. Being old enough to remember, I might remind you that the sixties and seventies were a time of great sexual 'freedom' and exploration in America, which included experimentation with 'open marriage'. Believe it or not, a lot of those grandparents you know now, were right in the thick of it.




Sometimes I think, you will stay with a spouse not because you still enjoy his or her company but because of the kids. You are doing your level best to make your children's lives good with two parents. And when that child grows up then you want a life. Nothing wrong with that if you can't have a happy contented life with your spouse. I know alittle about this. After the kids, hey, you deserve alittle happiness. Not maybe an affair, but just a life apart. That can be the solution to not being happy.
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kiakar
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



bookhunter wrote:

vivico1 wrote:
No offense to any grandma's here for the comparison ok, but its like of like the luxury of being the grandparent over the parent. You can get together and not worry about the everyday stuff, just have fun enjoy the kids, love them silly and when you are tired, take them home lol. You are removed somewhat from the responsibilities of the parents which allows you to be anything you want to the grandkids, their heroes and playmates and the fun one. Same with affairs... magical place, full of passion but not a place that last often in the real world. Hannah had already seen some of this the longer they were together, as she mentioned somewhere, his little habit of jumping up and writing while they were in the middle of cuddling or talking, she said she might not have liked very much at all in other circumstances, but here where she could just lay and oohh and ahh and be content to watch him, it was nice.




LOL! I never thought about comparing grandparenting to an illicit affair! Reread Grace's thoughts about grandparenting on page 184 and replace with "spouse," "lover" etc. and it says the same thing!

I am giggling, but you make a good point. Both are relationships that do not carry the responsibilities of reality.

Ann, bookhunter
(neither grandparent nor illicit lover, so totally clueless!)




Whatever! But I am a grandmother and I have the same feelings that Grace described being a grandmother! And I have never had an illicit affair. Sorry! Your theory sank!
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