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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End


kiakar wrote:


bookhunter wrote:

vivico1 wrote:
No offense to any grandma's here for the comparison ok, but its like of like the luxury of being the grandparent over the parent. You can get together and not worry about the everyday stuff, just have fun enjoy the kids, love them silly and when you are tired, take them home lol. You are removed somewhat from the responsibilities of the parents which allows you to be anything you want to the grandkids, their heroes and playmates and the fun one. Same with affairs... magical place, full of passion but not a place that last often in the real world. Hannah had already seen some of this the longer they were together, as she mentioned somewhere, his little habit of jumping up and writing while they were in the middle of cuddling or talking, she said she might not have liked very much at all in other circumstances, but here where she could just lay and oohh and ahh and be content to watch him, it was nice.




LOL! I never thought about comparing grandparenting to an illicit affair! Reread Grace's thoughts about grandparenting on page 184 and replace with "spouse," "lover" etc. and it says the same thing! No theories on what or why things happen, just looking for something to compare with lol :smileywink:

I am giggling, but you make a good point. Both are relationships that do not carry the responsibilities of reality.

Ann, bookhunter
(neither grandparent nor illicit lover, so totally clueless!)




Whatever! But I am a grandmother and I have the same feelings that Grace described being a grandmother! And I have never had an illicit affair. Sorry! Your theory sank!


no no no Kiakar lol, we are not saying there is a tie between having an affair and being a grandparent! :smileysurprised:, we are just saying, the advantages are similar, you dont have the same responsibilities with your grandkids that the parents do, you can just enjoy them more. All you grandparents tell me this. And thats whats similar with an affair, you are having all the fun without the responsibilities of marriage. One is great, being a grandparent, its real love and the natural order of things, the other, the affair is not.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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AllieK
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Registered: ‎12-19-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

I think this book is a mix of different types..romance..thriller..mystery..The first 2 parts we real slow to me(enjoyed , but slow), only because they seem to be the building blocks for the rest of the book. Once I got in to Part 3..about 2 chapters in...I had to read it to the end, instead of reading chapter by chapter as I had been.

The word "Romance" has many different definitions:

1. A love affair.
2. Ardent emotional attachment or involvement between people; love:
3. A strong, sometimes short-lived attachment, fascination, or enthusiasm for something: a childhood romance with the sea.

So, to me, there was a lot of romance in this book, just not the common one we all think of.

I think my happiest moment was when I read that Alfred and Grace got together after all, later in life. Through both their ups and downs in their early part of there lives (war, work committment, death), they found each other later in life to make each other happy..

I liked "The End" too..simple..graceful..end to Grace's full life!
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bookhunter
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End


BookWoman718 wrote:
Sorry, my friends, but in the real world sometimes affairs DO end with as much 'happily ever after' as anyone else's. I know of several. (The comparison to grandparenting does hold, though, actually, because as we've seen all too often, grandparents can and do step up to the plate of full responsibility for children, particularly when their own children are unwilling or unable to do so.) The people who have affairs are not really so different from anyone else; they are a cross-section of society, of religions, of ages, of backgrounds. So when faced with the very real challenges of marriage and commitment, some will make it, others won't. Two very dear friends, in my own extended-extended family, met while married to others more than forty years ago, divorced, remarried, had more children in addition to the several they already had between them, worked, raised the kids with the help of ex-spouses, and are now still together, in retirement, happy, devoted to one another and to the children and grandchildren. They simply were with the 'wrong' people before. I'm not saying that affairs are not often selfish and thrill-seeking, they are. But relationships can stagnate and die, or they can thrive and grow deeper. No matter how they begin. Being old enough to remember, I might remind you that the sixties and seventies were a time of great sexual 'freedom' and exploration in America, which included experimentation with 'open marriage'. Believe it or not, a lot of those grandparents you know now, were right in the thick of it.




Bookwoman, I know that is the real world. While I can't quote any statistics, I would imagine that your friends are the exception and that most romances which begin as affairs do not have 40 year anniversaries. It doesn't make me happy overall to think about that being the real world, but I AM happy that your friends found love.

I guess it is my self-marraige-defense hackles that rise up when people suggest, hey, it is ok for folks to have affairs. My hubby and I are protective about our marraige and one of our defense mechanisms is to talk about a book/tv show/movie that puts affairs in a positive or romantic light and critique them.

Again, I am sure that there are plenty of real world examples where it seemed the only option and has a happy ending. I do not mean to offend, just expess my very individual (well, I guess DUAL if we count hubby!) opinion.

And that POV makes me think that Hannah was headed for a train wreck even if she did pull off her escape. Her unhappiness was so profound that I don't think any relationship could end it. She needed to make herSELF happy with who she was before she could really find love. I guess marrying Teddy before she had the chance to do that was part of the problem.

Ann, bookhunter
(celebrating 20yrs of red-hot monogamy this year! ) :smileywink:
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bookhunter
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



AllieK wrote:
...I think my happiest moment was when I read that Alfred and Grace got together after all, later in life. Through both their ups and downs in their early part of there lives (war, work committment, death), they found each other later in life to make each other happy..




That was a good little "Awwwww" moment!

Ann, bookhunter
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paula_02912
Posts: 492
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

Everyman wrote: "With 500 pages, you would think that Morton could have paid a bit more attention to Marcus's return. We don't really know how or why or what it all means to him. Other loose ends are pretty well tied up, but not this one, at least as far as I can see. Nor does he explain at all why the tapes would help him put behind him the grief of a dead wife. What's the relationship?"

Everyman, IMO the story isn't about Marcus, therefore he didn't figure prominently in the story...yes, he was a "vehicle" for why Grace wanted to unburden herself, but that is just it...of Morton was to dedicate more than the pages she did to give us a backstory on Marcus' grief, but the same token, she would have needed to do the same thing for Ruth and Ursula...In retrospect, I think the purpose of writing about Marcus was maybe to show some parallel between his absence and that of Frederick when he left Riverton after his wife's death...he needed time to think and focus on the hows and whys of it as well as deal with any guilt he may have felt...just like Marcus had to do when his wife died...he needed to come to terms with what happened, and possibly realize that he could have done nothing to save her...I think the tapes would help him because it represented a greater tragedy brought about by lies and deception...someone caused the death of someone else because of love...whereas his situation wasn't as dramatic and it probably made him realize that he played no part in the death of his wife...does this make sense?
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

Author Unknown
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paula_02912
Posts: 492
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

[ Edited ]
Pepper wrote: "One question I do have -- what is "the secret"? Is there "a secret" really? Deception about shorthand seems an easy response. But what about the silence about what really happened by the lakeside? Wasn't that the nightmare that opened the novel?"

[edited by moderator for spoilers]

Message Edited by KxBurns on 01-15-2008 10:24 PM
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

Author Unknown
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goingeast
Posts: 89
Registered: ‎01-03-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?



bentley wrote:


Everyman wrote:

kiakar wrote:
It was a novel of life, should I say normal life.

I sure hope not! Iif this is normal life, I hope to live a wildly abnormal life!




Ditto..very morose life for all of the upstairs characters. At the beginning of Part III, I was honestly wondering if there was any light at the end of the tunnel other than an oncoming train.

I still enjoyed the story but honestly I did not admire any of the Hartford family and Grace wasn't all that admirable when she was with them. I think her story, life and growth started after she left service.

Bentley





Bentley,

Once again, I would have to agree with you. I like novels where characters show growth. Did anyone in this novel learn anything. Even Alfred comes back for more, risking rejection a second time. Perhaps there should be a thread about characters---those we like and those we didn't?
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bookhunter
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End


Everyman wrote: "With 500 pages, you would think that Morton could have paid a bit more attention to Marcus's return. We don't really know how or why or what it all means to him. Other loose ends are pretty well tied up, but not this one, at least as far as I can see. Nor does he explain at all why the tapes would help him put behind him the grief of a dead wife. What's the relationship?"

paula_02912 wrote:
Everyman, IMO the story isn't about Marcus, therefore he didn't figure prominently in the story...yes, he was a "vehicle" for why Grace wanted to unburden herself, but that is just it...




What is the Shakespeare technique where at the end of the tragedy, everyone is dead except a couple of minor characters?(It has been a while since my Shakespeare days!) They make a speech that looks ahead into the future, or something like that. That is what I thought Marcus and Ursula represented with their little "connection."

Ann, bookhunter
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bentley
Posts: 2,509
Registered: ‎01-31-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End A love story?

[ Edited ]

goingeast wrote:



Bentley,

Once again, I would have to agree with you. I like novels where characters show growth. Did anyone in this novel learn anything. Even Alfred comes back for more, risking rejection a second time. Perhaps there should be a thread about characters---those we like and those we didn't?




Yes Goingeast..that is a good idea..maybe one of the moderators will start a thread to discuss our favorite and least favorite characters and why.

Here is where they stand with me. A thread would be nice to discuss why.

High Favorites:

Mrs Townsend
Mr. Hamilton
Nancy
Alfred
Lucy Starling
Grace's mother
Marcus
Grace only after she started the tape recording
Jemima

OK with me:

Grace's mother's sister
Grace w/out Hannah
Ursula

Least of the favorites:

The remainder of the household staff
Robbie
Fanny

Did not care for:
All of the Hartfords
All of the Luxtons
Grace with Hannah and Riverton household

Message Edited by bentley on 01-15-2008 08:48 PM
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dhaupt
Posts: 11,865
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

bookhunter wrote:
(celebrating 20yrs of red-hot monogamy this year! )

Hey Ann congratulations, I'll be celebrating 30 yrs and I agree with you.
Debbie
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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End


dhaupt wrote:
bookhunter wrote:
(celebrating 20yrs of red-hot monogamy this year! )

Hey Ann congratulations, I'll be celebrating 30 yrs and I agree with you.
Debbie


I think thats great for both of you! :smileyhappy: and see, you have your built in protection from such a tragedy happening, your morals and love and work! Ok, started to add more but realized this isnt really THE end of the book, so will just say, yeah, congrats you guys,thats heartwarming to hear.:smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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juliejon
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Registered: ‎01-27-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

As a grandparent and someone who came of age in the 60s, I did understand the relationship that Grace had later in her life with Alfred. As we move through our lives, we begin to realize that the options we have with relationships are many. Marriages that were once robust and vital may have faded and new passions are ignited ....regardless of age.

On of the problems I had with this book was the fleeting way that many incidents moved into the story and then were wisked away. In the early chapters when Grace first met Ursula, Grace asks her to call her Grace before Ruth could say "Doctor" I was intrigued by that and throughout the book there were only brief glimpses.

A question I have is from the end of the story. Hannah's letter tells her of the box that she has left to Grace. What was in the box?
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KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



juliejon wrote:
A question I have is from the end of the story. Hannah's letter tells her of the box that she has left to Grace. What was in the box?




My guess is that whatever was in the box is what helped Grace fund her education and become Doctor Bradley. Money, or some other financial assets.
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Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



juliejon wrote:
As a grandparent and someone who came of age in the 60s, I did understand the relationship that Grace had later in her life with Alfred. As we move through our lives, we begin to realize that the options we have with relationships are many. ...

We also realize that time is passing, and that we don't carpe diem now we never will.
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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Everyman
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End


KxBurns wrote:

juliejon wrote:
A question I have is from the end of the story. Hannah's letter tells her of the box that she has left to Grace. What was in the box?

My guess is that whatever was in the box is what helped Grace fund her education and become Doctor Bradley. Money, or some other financial assets.>

That was my assumption, too. Though I've never heard a satisfactory answer as to why she continued in menial jobs for ten years before doing anything with it. And I've heard speculation, but no satisfactory (to me) explanation of where Hannah got the money to put in the box.
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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paula_02912
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

Ann wrote: "What is the Shakespeare technique where at the end of the tragedy, everyone is dead except a couple of minor characters?(It has been a while since my Shakespeare days!) They make a speech that looks ahead into the future, or something like that. That is what I thought Marcus and Ursula represented with their little "connection."

Ann, I can't recall that technique either...it has just been too long since I studied Shakespeare's work...
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

Author Unknown
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lamorgan
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Registered: ‎01-19-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

The whole key to the book was that some secrets would be revealed and others wouldn't. One that was hinted at but never put into words was Frederick being Grace's father. Ultimately, did it really matter when taking the story as a whole? Yes, there seemed to be a sort of kinship between Grace and Hannah, but that could also have been because they were so close in age at a time when they both needed a friend of sorts. They could understand each other in those tumultuous teen years and relished having a "secret" to share. It never says if Ursula and Marcus become a couple at the end, although this is another fact that is hinted at. They do have a bond, no doubt, that could lead to a unique and wonderful friendship, one that can be more open that the one Grace and Hannah shared.
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kiakar
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



lamorgan wrote:
The whole key to the book was that some secrets would be revealed and others wouldn't. One that was hinted at but never put into words was Frederick being Grace's father. Ultimately, did it really matter when taking the story as a whole? Yes, there seemed to be a sort of kinship between Grace and Hannah, but that could also have been because they were so close in age at a time when they both needed a friend of sorts. They could understand each other in those tumultuous teen years and relished having a "secret" to share. It never says if Ursula and Marcus become a couple at the end, although this is another fact that is hinted at. They do have a bond, no doubt, that could lead to a unique and wonderful friendship, one that can be more open that the one Grace and Hannah shared.




Yes, alot was left unsaid at the end. But that is what our imaginations are good for us to have in these moments. We wouldn't love reading if we didn't have imaginations that can skim over and beyond the surface of a novel. I do not think there is any doubt that Frederick is Grace's father.
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ezraSid
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Registered: ‎12-16-2007
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End

I loved these chapters! I was so glad to find out that Grace and Alfred got together in their later years. I am so glad she had happiness for the years they spent together especially with all that she had lost in her earlier years.
I was surprised to learn that Ursula was Florence's daughter. I knew that there was a special relationship between Ursula and Grace, but I didn't realize until now what the hidden relationship was. I was kind of disappointed that no one made any declaration about Grace's relationship to the "Family". The only thing we have is when Grace surmises that Frederick was her father, there is no Proof. It would have been lovely if perhaps a diary or journal had been found or some such. All we are left with are the minute clues and the assumption that Grace comes to, but never told for sure.
~Grace~
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lamorgan
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Re: PART FOUR: Slipping Out of Time and The End



kiakar wrote:


lamorgan wrote:
The whole key to the book was that some secrets would be revealed and others wouldn't. One that was hinted at but never put into words was Frederick being Grace's father. Ultimately, did it really matter when taking the story as a whole? Yes, there seemed to be a sort of kinship between Grace and Hannah, but that could also have been because they were so close in age at a time when they both needed a friend of sorts. They could understand each other in those tumultuous teen years and relished having a "secret" to share. It never says if Ursula and Marcus become a couple at the end, although this is another fact that is hinted at. They do have a bond, no doubt, that could lead to a unique and wonderful friendship, one that can be more open that the one Grace and Hannah shared.




Yes, alot was left unsaid at the end. But that is what our imaginations are good for us to have in these moments. We wouldn't love reading if we didn't have imaginations that can skim over and beyond the surface of a novel. I do not think there is any doubt that Frederick is Grace's father.




Oh, I totally agree. It's also important to remember that this book is "fiction." And whether we like a book or not, we can appreciate the art of writing it and the work of the author to create the book itself. As for "The House at Riverton," I personally loved the book and I'm glad I had the opportunity to take part in this First Look.
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