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jforever52
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Re: PART FOUR: The Tape

Hannah bears the responsibility for Robbie's death. She alone was the only one who knew of the extent Robbie's sensitivities after the war. She alone attempt to fake her own death so that she could escape her loveless marriage to travel the world with Robbie. She alone pulled the trigger. When faced with the choice of love or family, her familial obligations and sense of duty towards Emmaline won. Ultimately what choice did she have? She could have allowed Robbie to kill her sister or kill him. Given the fact that she was the older sister and had already lost a sibling it would have been very unlikely for this tragedy to end another way.
I found it patently unfair that Hannah attempted to blame Grace for Robbie's death. So what if Grace didn't read shorthand? What would have happened if someone else had stumbled upon the letters and read only Emmalines? If it were that important Grace should have been informed in person.
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dhaupt
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Re: PART FOUR: The Tape

Viv, dhaupt here: I guess you didn't read my ditty far enough here's what I said on page 1

Ultimately Robbie was responsible for his own untimely end. If he had really known Hannah he would have realized that there would be no choosing between her sister and her lover. Even though she used Emmeline to help her in her affair with Robbie I wasn't surprise when the time came that she chose Emmeline.
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Everyman
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Re: PART FOUR: The Tape

[ Edited ]
Why would you think he would be? I would think that maybe having an affair with a married woman would subject you to the potential of death from the husband in the 17 or 18th centuries, but in 1924?? And if you knew that the husband was tied down at his massive party, why would you think there would be any risk in absconding with the wife from a safe location well away from the house?

vivico1 wrote:
Got a question for you guys. There are a lot of opinions about Hannah being responsible for Robbies death, Grace being responsible in here, but I noticed, not one other person said that Robbie had a part in his own death either. I am interested to hear your thoughts on this, do you see him having any culpability in this tragedy of his own death? And why or why not?



Message Edited by Everyman on 01-15-2008 01:51 PM
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Everyman
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Two questions

Two questions about this bit that I have.

1. Did I overlook the bit where it is explained why Emmeline's male companion would come to a big party with a gun in his coat, and not only that, but would leave it in his coat when he drapes it around the shoulders of a significantly drunk woman ?

2. It is suggested that before running off, Hannah and Teddy had time for a quickie in the summer house. How realistic does this seem? They are escaping to a new life, the motorbike is ready, obviously the agenda for the evening is to go as far as they can before her absence is noticed, but they stop for a quickie late at night in a presumably unheated summer house on what we are told on page 461 was a cool night and on 462 was "rather cold" for June, which isn't a hot month in England at the best of times?
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: The Tape


Everyman wrote:
Why would think he would? I would think that maybe having an affair with a married woman would subject you to the potential of death from the husband in the 17 or 18th centuries, but in 1924?? And if you knew that the husband was tied down at his massive party, why would you think there would be any risk in absconding with the wife from a safe location well away from the house?

vivico1 wrote:
Got a question for you guys. There are a lot of opinions about Hannah being responsible for Robbies death, Grace being responsible in here, but I noticed, not one other person said that Robbie had a part in his own death either. I am interested to hear your thoughts on this, do you see him having any culpability in this tragedy of his own death? And why or why not?





Everyman, even today, most murders within a family are because of adultery or perceived adultery (mixed with alcohol and other things lol) but its true. And I am asking in even a more general sense too. If Hannah is responsible for this because of her carelessness, how could he not also bear some responsibility for things leading to this tragedy too by his lies and messing around where he had no right and leading on Emmeline too? So are we back at the, its the women's fault but men messing around are just hey, fine if they are careful? That their actions arent "hurting" anyone too? Just wondering why he gets off because hes the one shot, when putting the letter aside this whole tragedy was brought on by an adulterous affair of two people.
Vivian
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kiakar
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Re: PART FOUR: The Tape



dhaupt wrote:
Viv, dhaupt here: I guess you didn't read my ditty far enough here's what I said on page 1

Ultimately Robbie was responsible for his own untimely end. If he had really known Hannah he would have realized that there would be no choosing between her sister and her lover. Even though she used Emmeline to help her in her affair with Robbie I wasn't surprise when the time came that she chose Emmeline.




He wasn't in his right mind, right? So he wouldn't have thought logically whether Hannah would choose him or Emmeline. right?
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kiakar
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Re: PART FOUR: The Tape Robbie is to blame also.

I agree, Vivian. Noone in this scenio is exempt from blame. Hannah and Robbie, most definitely for having the affair, If anyone is exempt it would be Emmeline, because she was suffering from neglect which probably brought on her mental illness, I know Kate didnt voice that, but she a victim of not feeling loved in her life. She wanted to find it in every man she saw. So Hannah and Robbie, knew Emmeline was loose and vunable, and knew she wanted a relationship with Robbie, so they are really twice to blame, in my book. Grace of course for always going along with Hannah on everything and not telling the truth about shorthand even though that might not have made a difference. When something is meant to happen, it has a way of doing that. Hannah to me is the main character in this scenio, she was always reaching out to someone for her survival and not caring at what expense it was to the other person. Of course, she also didn't have a great upbringing by her father and her mom dying young. Her father also could be sited to blame for not caring for his daughters like he should have, but he also was neglected by his father. I am not sure about the mom, she kind of ignored him alot I feel now that I have read the book.
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: The Tape Robbie is to blame also.


kiakar wrote:
I agree, Vivian. Noone in this scenio is exempt from blame. Hannah and Robbie, most definitely for having the affair, If anyone is exempt it would be Emmeline, because she was suffering from neglect which probably brought on her mental illness, I know Kate didnt voice that, but she a victim of not feeling loved in her life. She wanted to find it in every man she saw. So Hannah and Robbie, knew Emmeline was loose and vunable, and knew she wanted a relationship with Robbie, so they are really twice to blame, in my book. Grace of course for always going along with Hannah on everything and not telling the truth about shorthand even though that might not have made a difference. When something is meant to happen, it has a way of doing that. Hannah to me is the main character in this scenio, she was always reaching out to someone for her survival and not caring at what expense it was to the other person. Of course, she also didn't have a great upbringing by her father and her mom dying young. Her father also could be sited to blame for not caring for his daughters like he should have, but he also was neglected by his father. I am not sure about the mom, she kind of ignored him alot I feel now that I have read the book.


You are right, Emmeline has been a victim for a long time, often left out of things between David and Hannah, so remember how pleased she was that David turned to her as his back up with Robbie and the Christmas tree. Her mother was gone, her father ignored her and Hannah used her. She really was lost. In some ways, she seemed like more the bastard child left to her own than even Grace.
Vivian
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AllieK
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Re: Two questions

Everyman:
1. Did I overlook the bit where it is explained why Emmeline's male companion would come to a big party with a gun in his coat, and not only that, but would leave it in his coat when he drapes it around the shoulders of a significantly drunk woman ?

I couldn't find the exact place in the book, but one time a bunch of them were eating or sitting around the table talking about guns and shooting them and Emmeline mentioned her friend that always carried one around...can't remember the reason..but it was mentioned earlier in the book...it was even mentioned it was illegal to do so!
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paula_02912
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Re: PART FOUR: The Tape

Vivian wrote: "Got a question for you guys. There are a lot of opinions about Hannah being responsible for Robbies death, Grace being responsible in here, but I noticed, not one other person said that Robbie had a part in his own death either. I am interested to hear your thoughts on this, do you see him having any culpability in this tragedy of his own death? And why or why not?"

Vivian, I think that everyone played a part in Robbie's death, including him, but Hannah is the bigger culprit...if she hadn't gotten involved with him in their illicit affair, then he wouldn't have found himself at the lake on that fateful night...Robbie was culpable because he "forgot his place" so to speak...he wanted another man's wife, and he went about getting her the devious way, by sneaking around and having an affair with her...if he didn't go after Hannah, then it wouldn't have been easy for him to fall in with her plans to have an affair...yes, he probably did it out of love for her, but he should have just loved her enough to leave her alone...but, then again...he wasn't strong enough to do that, was he?
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bookhunter
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Re: Two questions



Everyman wrote:
... Did I overlook the bit where it is explained why Emmeline's male companion would come to a big party with a gun in his coat, and not only that, but would leave it in his coat when he drapes it around the shoulders of a significantly drunk woman ?




You are right, Everyman. All the other characters in this book act with so much rationality and forethought...how could this have happened? lol

(I was guessing that he, too, was too drunk to think that it was a stupid thing to do!)

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paula_02912
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Re: Two questions

Everyman wrote: "It is suggested that before running off, Hannah and Teddy had time for a quickie in the summer house. How realistic does this seem?"

Everyman, I don't think that they were having a "quickie" as you put it...I think that the summerhouse was the designated meeting place, rather than the shores of the lake...that is the only reason I believe that they would want to "hide"...remember there is a party going on, and even though Hannah convinced Teddy to block off the path to the lake, you never know who would have wondered down there while they were trying to meet...so it seemed very realistic and logical to me that they would want to meet in the summerhouse...Hannah took off her shoes because she wanted to set the stage for her "suicide"...remember she wanted everyone to believe that she "drowned" in the lake...
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Re: Two questions

AllieK wrote: "Everyman:
1. Did I overlook the bit where it is explained why Emmeline's male companion would come to a big party with a gun in his coat, and not only that, but would leave it in his coat when he drapes it around the shoulders of a significantly drunk woman ?

I couldn't find the exact place in the book, but one time a bunch of them were eating or sitting around the table talking about guns and shooting them and Emmeline mentioned her friend that always carried one around...can't remember the reason..but it was mentioned earlier in the book...it was even mentioned it was illegal to do so! "

I would also like to add that, Emmeline usually hung out with unsavory characters...remember she was the one who found herself in the news because of her antics that were so opposite of what societal views thought was good behavior for a woman of the gentry...the "porn" scandal, public drunkenness, relationships with all manner of men...
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paula_02912
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Re: PART FOUR: The Tape Robbie is to blame also.

Vivian wrote: "In some ways, she seemed like more the bastard child left to her own than even Grace."

Vivian, this is a slight change in topic, but what you said above reminded me of a note I wrote while I was reading...I wondered about Emmeline's "true" relationship to the Hartford family...could it be that she wasn't Frederick's child? Maybe their mother had an illicit affair of her own, of which she was the result...I thought about this because of the way he treated her...she often said that he didn't love her, like he loved Hannah or David...
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Everyman
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Re: Two questions

But the suggestion is that Florence was conceived that night by Robbie and Hannah. Since he parked down by the lake and presumably didn't show up to the house, the only place they could have had sex would be there in the summerhouse. Maybe "quickie" was a bit crude, but on a cold June night out in the open air in a summerhouse with presumably no bed or comfy couch or blankets, it must have been something on that order.

If indeed they did have a last moment of sex and did conceive Florence that night. But since they hadn't seen each other for awhile, if he was the father it must have been then.

paula_02912 wrote:
Everyman wrote: "It is suggested that before running off, Hannah and Teddy had time for a quickie in the summer house. How realistic does this seem?"

Everyman, I don't think that they were having a "quickie" as you put it...I think that the summerhouse was the designated meeting place, rather than the shores of the lake...that is the only reason I believe that they would want to "hide"...remember there is a party going on, and even though Hannah convinced Teddy to block off the path to the lake, you never know who would have wondered down there while they were trying to meet...so it seemed very realistic and logical to me that they would want to meet in the summerhouse...Hannah took off her shoes because she wanted to set the stage for her "suicide"...remember she wanted everyone to believe that she "drowned" in the lake...


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bookhunter
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Re: Two questions


Everyman wrote:
But the suggestion is that Florence was conceived that night by Robbie and Hannah. ...







On page 428 Grace says "Hannah had a secret" and I took that to mean a pregnancy. The secret could have been their plan to escape. But her descriptions on p427 are of a joyful woman with a glow in her cheeks. That's pregnant. I think anticipating the escape would have made her excited and anxious.

But that is how I read it. I think Ms. Morton intentionally leaves many mysteries unsolved. Shame on her.

Ann, bookhunter
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paula_02912
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Re: Two questions

Ann wrote: "On page 428 Grace says "Hannah had a secret" and I took that to mean a pregnancy. The secret could have been their plan to escape. But her descriptions on p427 are of a joyful woman with a glow in her cheeks. That's pregnant. I think anticipating the escape would have made her excited and anxious."

Ann, I think she knew she was pregnant before Robbie died...when I read that page, I also thought of Grace's Mother's face in the picture...she was described in a similar way as Hannah is in this chapter...Isn't it because she was pregnant coupled with the fact that she loved him that Hannah made the resolve (awkward wording?) to run off with Robbie?
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goingeast
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Re: The Tape

In this chapter Hannah says, "you're too late, ...you're too late." Who is she talking to and to what is she referring? Is she telling Teddy he is too late?
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bentley
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Re: Two questions



Everyman wrote:
But the suggestion is that Florence was conceived that night by Robbie and Hannah. Since he parked down by the lake and presumably didn't show up to the house, the only place they could have had sex would be there in the summerhouse. Maybe "quickie" was a bit crude, but on a cold June night out in the open air in a summerhouse with presumably no bed or comfy couch or blankets, it must have been something on that order.

If indeed they did have a last moment of sex and did conceive Florence that night. But since they hadn't seen each other for awhile, if he was the father it must have been then.

paula_02912 wrote:
Everyman wrote: "It is suggested that before running off, Hannah and Teddy had time for a quickie in the summer house. How realistic does this seem?"

Everyman, I don't think that they were having a "quickie" as you put it...I think that the summerhouse was the designated meeting place, rather than the shores of the lake...that is the only reason I believe that they would want to "hide"...remember there is a party going on, and even though Hannah convinced Teddy to block off the path to the lake, you never know who would have wondered down there while they were trying to meet...so it seemed very realistic and logical to me that they would want to meet in the summerhouse...Hannah took off her shoes because she wanted to set the stage for her "suicide"...remember she wanted everyone to believe that she "drowned" in the lake...







I agree with you Everyman which to me gives another indication that Hannah was not really going to leave Teddy. What person ready to leave and worried about being discovered has a "quickie" as you call it by the lake? Nobody. They get out of there as quickly as they could and get to their destination.
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vivico1
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Re: PART FOUR: The Tape

[ Edited ]
nevermind lol :smileyhappy:

Message Edited by vivico1 on 01-15-2008 07:46 PM
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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