Two questions

[vivico1]

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bookhunter wrote:

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Everyman wrote:
... Did I overlook the bit where it is explained why Emmeline's male companion would come to a big party with a gun in his coat, and not only that, but would leave it in his coat when he drapes it around the shoulders of a significantly drunk woman ?

You are right, Everyman. All the other characters in this book act with so much rationality and forethought...how could this have happened? lol

(I was guessing that he, too, was too drunk to think that it was a stupid thing to do!)

Ann, bookhunter

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Emmeline says in the chapter The Dinner that she has a friend who carries a gun on him all the time.

[dhaupt]

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kiakar wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:
Viv, dhaupt here: I guess you didn't read my ditty far enough here's what I said on page 1

Ultimately Robbie was responsible for his own untimely end. If he had really known Hannah he would have realized that there would be no choosing between her sister and her lover. Even though she used Emmeline to help her in her affair with Robbie I wasn't surprise when the time came that she chose Emmeline.

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He wasn't in his right mind, right? So he wouldn't have thought logically whether Hannah would choose him or Emmeline. right?

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right

[dhaupt]

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goingeast wrote:
In this chapter Hannah says, "you're too late, ...you're too late." Who is she talking to and to what is she referring? Is she telling Teddy he is too late?

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I wondered that myself, but I don't think she was talking to Teddy. Maybe herself, but why I don't know.
debbie

[vivico1]

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dhaupt wrote:

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goingeast wrote:
In this chapter Hannah says, "you're too late, ...you're too late." Who is she talking to and to what is she referring? Is she telling Teddy he is too late?

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I wondered that myself, but I don't think she was talking to Teddy. Maybe herself, but why I don't know.
debbie

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do you remember where that was exactly? I would like to reread it and see.

[dhaupt]

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vivico1 wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

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goingeast wrote:
In this chapter Hannah says, "you're too late, ...you're too late." Who is she talking to and to what is she referring? Is she telling Teddy he is too late?

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I wondered that myself, but I don't think she was talking to Teddy. Maybe herself, but why I don't know.
debbie

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do you remember where that was exactly? I would like to reread it and see.

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It was on page 467
debbie

[ashleym919]

vivico1--

You are right, Emmeline has been a victim for a long time, often left out of things between David and Hannah, so remember how pleased she was that David turned to her as his back up with Robbie and the Christmas tree. Her mother was gone, her father ignored her and Hannah used her. She really was lost. In some ways, she seemed like more the bastard child left to her own than even Grace.

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I have to say that I agree with you here. Far from placing blame on Emmeline, I felt like she was the greatest victim in this story. All the others had made decisions that affected their life. Hannah and Robbie were playing a very real and dangerous game with their affair, but that was their choice. They have only themselves to blame for Robbie's death and the awful circumstances. Even Grace had decided to stay with Hannah and help Hannah hide the affair.

Emmeline was a romantic who wanted so desperately to be loved by someone, ANYONE. Hannah was prepared to fake her own death which would've devestated Emmeline. I sincerely doubt that Hannah would've ever contacted her in the future to say she was still alive. In the end, I was glad that Hannah FINALLY chose her sister over the mentally ill Robbie though the decision still destroyed them all.

[goingeast]

Did anyone notice that Grace was hiding? It's mentioned several times. I don't even think Hannah knew she was there. The author makes a point of telling us she was hiding, in a hiding spot. It's mentioned twice. On p467 Grace says she

"ran from my hiding spot onto the lake edge."

If she was in a hiding spot how could she have seen what happened? The author only menitions the hiding spot several times.


In the Riverton Revisited chapter, on p433. Hannah talks obsessively and compulsively of Robbie. She tells Grace she loved him but it just wasn't quite enough. It sounds more like she feels it wasn't enough and that's why Robbie killed himself. If Hannah truly killed Robbie wouldn't she have more likely said something like, I loved him but I couldn't betray Emmeline. Why don't they ever talk about what happened. Grace doesn't even know that she was supposed to keep Emmeline from the lake. We still don't know when and who translated the letter written to Grace.

Message Edited by goingeast on 01-16-2008 12:08 PM

[paula_02912]

goingeast wrote: "In this chapter Hannah says, "you're too late, ...you're too late." Who is she talking to and to what is she referring? Is she telling Teddy he is too late?"

goingeast, I thought she wasn't really talking to anyone in particular...I think she was just trying to convince herself that whatever decisions she made or actions she took were what they were and they couldn't be changed or undone...

On another note...doesn't Grace say a similar thing when she left Ursula in the Drawing room? When Ruth tells her that she's going home and she never has to go back [to Riverton/to see Ursula] again...Grace responds by saying, "It is too late." (p.16)

[paula_02912]

goingeast wrote: "In the Riverton Revisited chapter, on p433. Hannah talks obsessively and compulsively of Robbie. She tells Grace she loved him but it just wasn't quite enough."

goingeast, you always bring some great discussion points...I thought that Hannah was referring to the fact that her love for Robbie was just not enough to help him overcome his shell shock to make him the man he was before.

[AbbyLynn]

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paula_02912 wrote:
Ann wrote: "On page 428 Grace says "Hannah had a secret" and I took that to mean a pregnancy. The secret could have been their plan to escape. But her descriptions on p427 are of a joyful woman with a glow in her cheeks. That's pregnant. I think anticipating the escape would have made her excited and anxious."

Ann, I think she knew she was pregnant before Robbie died...when I read that page, I also thought of Grace's Mother's face in the picture...she was described in a similar way as Hannah is in this chapter...Isn't it because she was pregnant coupled with the fact that she loved him that Hannah made the resolve (awkward wording?) to run off with Robbie?

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While anticipating the escape might have made most people nervous, I think it's important for us to remember we're talking about Hannah, who spent her whole life searching for an adventure. I think she saw escaping with Robbie as an adventure to start the life she always wanted. I think she belived the plan was so flawless and that it never occured to her that she might be caught or that things wouldn't work out exactly as she planned.

I don't think Hannah did know she was pregnant before Robbie died. It was three months after Robbie's death that the doctor "declared her pregnant". I feel like she would have to have already been at least a month or two along to know (or even suspect) she was pregnant (of course, never having been pregnant, maybe I wouldn't know...but it's not like she could run to Walgreen's for a home pregnancy test!). Also, I was under the impression that Hannah and Robbie planned this at their museum meeting and didn't see each other again until the night at the lake. And wasn't there at least a month between the two?

[AbbyLynn]

I'm not so quick to point the finger at any one person. There are a number of things that had to happen exactly the way they did. If Grace had been honest at any point (before that night) about not knowing shorthand, if Hannah and Robbie had gotten straight on the motorcycle instead of taking the time to conceive a baby, if Hannah had been faithful to her husband from the beginning, if Robbie had done a better job of convincing Emmeline he wasn't interested in her, if Emmeline hadn't thrown a tantrum, if Emmeline's friend hadn't left a gun in his pocket...all these things had to happen. But the one that I go back to is Robbie's shell shock. So isn't it the war's fault? Robbie never would have suggested that Hannah shoot Emmeline if he had been in his right mind at that moment. The reason Hannah had to make the decision that she did was because she had seen Robbie like that. She knew she didn't have the ability to snap him out of it in time. She knew that Robbie would kill her little sister. And I have to say that I would have done the exact same thing to protect my sister.

[Librarian]

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dhaupt wrote:

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vivico1 wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

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goingeast wrote:
In this chapter Hannah says, "you're too late, ...you're too late." Who is she talking to and to what is she referring? Is she telling Teddy he is too late?

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I wondered that myself, but I don't think she was talking to Teddy. Maybe herself, but why I don't know.
debbie

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do you remember where that was exactly? I would like to reread it and see.

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It was on page 467
debbie

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Could Hannah have been addressing her "You're too late" to Grace. Grace was the one who jumped out of hiding to warn Hannah that Teddy was coming. Teddy hadn't reached her yet when Hannah said "You're too late."
Librarian

[goingeast]

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Librarian wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

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vivico1 wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

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goingeast wrote:
In this chapter Hannah says, "you're too late, ...you're too late." Who is she talking to and to what is she referring? Is she telling Teddy he is too late?

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I wondered that myself, but I don't think she was talking to Teddy. Maybe herself, but why I don't know.
debbie

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do you remember where that was exactly? I would like to reread it and see.

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It was on page 467
debbie

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Could Hannah have been addressing her "You're too late" to Grace. Grace was the one who jumped out of hiding to warn Hannah that Teddy was coming. Teddy hadn't reached her yet when Hannah said "You're too late."
Librarian

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Yes, but what did she think Grace was doing there? What did she think Emmeline was doing there? Did she realize at this point there was any connection with her letters to Grace and why they both were at the lake? Hannah doesn't even see Grace until she comes out of hiding. How much could Grace have seen if she had to run over to the lake edge? Did she perhaps hear more than she saw? Did she assume Hannah shot Robbie? Are we, as readers assuming Hannah shot Robbie. It's never been stated by any of the characters about who shot who. The only thing stated was Emmeline saying Robbie shot himself. Perhaps the only secret is that Hannah was going to run away with Robbie. Why is it that Grace found it so difficult to say Hannah's name? Perhaps Grace only blamed herself that Hannah wasn't able to run away and live in peaceful bliss with Robbie. Now that I started thinking about it, Robbie may have just taken the gun away from Hannah and shot himself afterall. There are really no details otherwise. Everything else is an assumption.

[ezraSid]

I don't think they realized that Grace was still there. However, how could she have left? She was Hannah's maid, of course she would stand by to see if she could help in some way.
My opinion of Emme didn't change, I thought of her as a spoiled brat before and haven't changed that opinion. It was noble of her to protect her sister, but wasn't she also protecting herself? She wouldn't want everyone knowing that the man she thought of as her suitor was running off with her married sister.
I would but the responsibility for Robbie's death on Emme. If she hadn't had the gun, if she hadn't interfered with their leaving it wouldn't have happened. She threatened to expose them and that threat combined with the fireworks sent Robbie over the edge. It was a very sad ending.

[Peppermill]

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paula_02912 wrote:... but he should have just loved her enough to leave her alone...

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A great line, Paula, in so many situations in life. And hard to recognize in real life, whether for friends, parents, children, or lovers ....

[Peppermill]

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bookhunter wrote: ....I think Ms. Morton intentionally leaves many mysteries unsolved. Shame on her.

Ann, bookhunter

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Ann -- why that judgment on the author? Is solving all the mysteries a writing guideline/standard for a book like HAR that Ms. Morton is violating?

Do we have any guesses/observations on whether there is purpose/ meaning/ pattern as to which mysteries Ms. Morton has chosen to leave unsolved?

[kiakar]

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ezraSid wrote:
I don't think they realized that Grace was still there. However, how could she have left? She was Hannah's maid, of course she would stand by to see if she could help in some way.
My opinion of Emme didn't change, I thought of her as a spoiled brat before and haven't changed that opinion. It was noble of her to protect her sister, but wasn't she also protecting herself? She wouldn't want everyone knowing that the man she thought of as her suitor was running off with her married sister.
I would but the responsibility for Robbie's death on Emme. If she hadn't had the gun, if she hadn't interfered with their leaving it wouldn't have happened. She threatened to expose them and that threat combined with the fireworks sent Robbie over the edge. It was a very sad ending.

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No one person was responsible for this disaster. It all was set in motion by all that was involved .

[Peppermill]

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ezraSid wrote:
I don't think they realized that Grace was still there. However, how could she have left? She was Hannah's maid, of course she would stand by to see if she could help in some way.

My opinion of Emme didn't change, I thought of her as a spoiled brat before and haven't changed that opinion. It was noble of her to protect her sister, but wasn't she also protecting herself? She wouldn't want everyone knowing that the man she thought of as her suitor was running off with her married sister.

I would but the responsibility for Robbie's death on Emme. If she hadn't had the gun, if she hadn't interfered with their leaving it wouldn't have happened. She threatened to expose them and that threat combined with the fireworks sent Robbie over the edge. It was a very sad ending. {emphasis added}

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EzraSid -- and if the case had come to trial and you were a member of the jury, knowing what we know here as readers?

[cocospals]

I see Grace as the heroine in this chapter. SHE was going to go save Hannah from herself, SHE grabbed Emmeline and SHE was the one who hid the suitcase and SHE kept the secret all those years. The shooting scene with the reference to the triangle goes back to when Hannah, Emmeline and David would play their games. "only three can play" that was one of the rules. Robbie was #4.

[goingeast]

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Peppermill wrote:

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ezraSid wrote:
I don't think they realized that Grace was still there. However, how could she have left? She was Hannah's maid, of course she would stand by to see if she could help in some way.

My opinion of Emme didn't change, I thought of her as a spoiled brat before and haven't changed that opinion. It was noble of her to protect her sister, but wasn't she also protecting herself? She wouldn't want everyone knowing that the man she thought of as her suitor was running off with her married sister.

I would but the responsibility for Robbie's death on Emme. If she hadn't had the gun, if she hadn't interfered with their leaving it wouldn't have happened. She threatened to expose them and that threat combined with the fireworks sent Robbie over the edge. It was a very sad ending. {emphasis added}

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EzraSid -- and if the case had come to trial and you were a member of the jury, knowing what we know here as readers?

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Peppermill,

You make an excellent scenario. What if the case had come to trial. Let's see...Grace was hiding in the shadows, away from them and Hannah had her eyes shut. So, who actually was the witness? Just because Grace and Hannah were present at the scene doesn't mean they actually saw what happened. I rest my case (so to speak).